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Russian Stereotypes stereotypes
Old 12-01-2009, 06:03 PM   #1
Nikonman
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  Originally Posted by Grrr
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I know quite a few Russians like that. I myself neither drink nor smoke. Stereotypes are, well, stereotypes.

Actually, the reported statistics regarding alcohol consumption per person put Russia way past the US and most other major powers, something a bit less than double the per person consumption in the US. The New York Times ran an article in the past month or so about new efforts by the Russian government to address the alcohol problem because of its impact on productivity and life spans, which are considerably lower for Russian men than US men. So the stereotype appears to be based in fact from what I've read, but as with most stereotypes, that doesn't mean every Russian is a drunken wife abuser. The statistics provide good evidence, though, that there is more of an alcohol problem in Russia than in the US. Whether that leads to women being more poorly treated in Russia is just a guess, but one that doesn't seem unreasonable. Of course the US might offset that with a substantially higher drug use than Russia, which something I don't know about. We seem to be losing a lot of young men (and women) in many rural parts of the US to meth addiction. Of course redneck meth addicts are not in group of well off men who seek foreign brides. But then I'm sure there are some women in the poorer parts of West Virginia and Mississippi who'd like to be swept away by some well employed man who could provide a nice home and stable income just as much as some foreign women might.

As for the successful marriages between Russian women brought here by American men, I'm really curious as to how long the women stick to their purportedly more family oriented way of life. I would think that over time, they adopt to their new country and become more like the American women in their communities. The guy who wants a stay at home wife who has dinner ready when he gets home every night probably tries to seclude his foreign bride from the ways of Western women. Having already experienced a dependent ex spouse who simply thought it was unthinkable to go back to work after having a child, I'd rather stick to women who find self worth in having a career and an ability to be independent. The other major risk in having that stay at home wife with kids is the potential legal ramifications in the event of divorce. Not only will she get custody of your kids since she stayed home and raised them, she will also get alimony and child support.

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Old 12-02-2009, 05:31 AM   #2
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in russia if you don't drink, then you are less than a man.
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:54 AM   #3
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Suicide is another respected Russian custom:
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- a rite of passage for Russian men, in a way.
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Old 12-02-2009, 06:12 AM   #4
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  Originally Posted by smabers
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in russia if you don't drink, then you are less than a man.

Hmm... Let's just say that in Russia alcoholism is as prevalent as obesity is in America. Non-drinkers may be looked down upon in Russia, but it all depends on how you spin it (a wimp or an athlete, for example). It is a very macho culture, though...
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:49 AM   #5
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  Originally Posted by Grrr
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One has to read on history of feminism in Russia. A woman is expected to have proper education and a job.

NOWHERE near to the same extent as in North America. Places like downtown Moscow however, are indeed much closer to the US in most ways. The rest of Russia is not.

  Originally Posted by Night Runner
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it's that there are quite a few women who understand their future back home is limited, to say the least, and would do almost anything to get out of there.

This is what I was trying to get across. There is very little opportunity to get anywhere in life, in comparison to North America. This is very depressing.

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Old 12-02-2009, 03:11 PM   #6
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  Originally Posted by OneHertz
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NOWHERE near to the same extent as in North America. Places like downtown Moscow however, are indeed much closer to the US in most ways. The rest of Russia is not.

Actually, I'm quite certain that the number of women with academic degrees in Russia is
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than elsewhere in the Western world save perhaps for the likes of Sweden. It's just that education isn't a recipe for wealth. Nevertheless, I wouldn't classify Russian education as inferior judging by academic rankings.

I wouldn't say Russia is such a hell-hole as you describe it, and I don't mean just Moscow and St. Petersburg. If one looks at the
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of income distribution, one can notice that Southern Russian regions are reasonably opulent, as are parts of Siberia. It isn't 'the rest of Russia' - it is, rather, a number of particular regions.

And then again, what's the reasoning behind discarding Moscow and the likes from such an analysis? Its population constitutes 10% of the Russian total. If one includes major economic centres like St. Petersburg, Kazan, or Novosibirsk into that number, the result would be formidable indeed. Naturally, the income will still not be as impressive as the average US income, but it is incomparable to the Third World. It will be much higher than that of the new EU members.

As far as the popularity of Russian mail-order brides is concerned, I would say it is a direct consequence of Russia being an upper-middle tier nation in terms of income as well as its relative social liberalism. The same reasons why the very successful Czech Republic is currently regarded as the most indecent place in Europe. I would describe the reasons as follows:

  • Infrastructure, technology, and geographic proximity to highly developed countries enable and encourage extensive contact with rich foreigners; much unlike in the Third World.
  • Sufficient emancipation and loose societal structure strip men of the ability to prevent women from participating in such activities, unlike among Muslim ethnicities, for instance.
  • A combination of relative familiarity with foreign culture on the Russian side and the lack of awareness of Russian culture on the foreign side allows for extensive scamming.
  • Racist attitudes on behalf of men believing they can get a wife who is both European and submissive, which results in high demand for Eastern Europeans. Go for Thai ladyboys, gentlemen.


  Originally Posted by Nikonman
Actually, the reported statistics regarding alcohol consumption per person put Russia way past the US and most other major powers, something a bit less than double the per person consumption in the US.

That is not so. Countries like Ireland or Germany easily beat Russia in terms of
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. It is the manner of alcohol consumption and not the actual amount which leads to such unfortunate results. Vodka belt alcoholism is usually manifested through binge drinking rather than regular consumption in moderate amounts. That means that in spite of consuming less alcohol per se, the Finns, for instance, suffer greater damage from alcoholism than the French do (see suicide statistics, for instance.)

 
As for the successful marriages between Russian women brought here by American men, I'm really curious as to how long the women stick to their purportedly more family oriented way of life. I would think that over time, they adopt to their new country and become more like the American women in their communities.

Purportedly is the key word here. I believe that it is but a marketing strategy rather than a genuine desire for a family-oriented way of life stemming from cultural peculiarities. In fact, I am quite convinced that the average provincial American woman is a lot more family-oriented than the average Russian mail-order bride - it takes a certain mindset to become one, I should think, though I'm not being judgemental here. The fact that these brides abandon the scammed person as soon as possible shouldn't be attributed to adapting to a new country either.

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Old 12-02-2009, 04:10 PM   #7
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  Originally Posted by Defenestratoris
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That is not so. Countries like Ireland or Germany easily beat Russia in terms of
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. It is the manner of alcohol consumption and not the actual amount which leads to such unfortunate results. Vodka belt alcoholism is usually manifested through binge drinking rather than regular consumption in moderate amounts. That means that in spite of consuming less alcohol per se, the Finns, for instance, suffer greater damage from alcoholism than the French do (see suicide statistics, for instance.)

I think we are looking at different statistics, yours appears to be from 2004. The last reported Russian study I saw was completed in 2007 and had it, per capita, at about 15.5 litres of pure alcohol, which shot Russia past even Germany and Ireland. It was a very substantial increase from the older studies, and the basis of the new governmental efforts at curbing alcohol abuse. Regardless, it is pretty clearly a bigger problem in Russia than in the US, for what that is worth. It doesn't really matter to me, as I don't plan on marrying a Russian or opening a factory there where I need reliable, productive workers.

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Old 12-02-2009, 04:47 PM   #8
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  Originally Posted by Defenestratoris
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Actually, I'm quite certain that the number of women with academic degrees in Russia is
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than elsewhere in the Western world save perhaps for the likes of Sweden. It's just that education isn't a recipe for wealth. Nevertheless, I wouldn't classify Russian education as inferior judging by academic rankings.

I wasn't exactly talking about education. Having gone through Canadian education I would say that Russia is much better in that respect. The tertiary numbers make sense because there is such a thing as free post secondary education in Russia, considering you score high enough grades on the exams they give you. It is like you said, education is much less of a recipe for success over in Russia than it is in North America. More people are educated so it matters less.

I was replying in regards to the effects of feminism on the way of thinking of Russian women versus North American women.

 
I wouldn't say Russia is such a hell-hole as you describe it, and I don't mean just Moscow and St. Petersburg. If one looks at the
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of income distribution, one can notice that Southern Russian regions are reasonably opulent, as are parts of Siberia. It isn't 'the rest of Russia' - it is, rather, a number of particular regions.

It is not a hell-hole. Your graph is crap because they measure it in the amount of money which is required to survive. This number can vary highly based on opinion. I bet they are also measuring it on an average. The problem isn't that the average incomes are very low, it is that there is a large separation of wealth in Russia. If you are not wealthy, you are pretty much fucked.

 
And then again, what's the reasoning behind discarding Moscow and the likes from such an analysis? Its population constitutes 10% of the Russian total. If one includes major economic centres like St. Petersburg, Kazan, or Novosibirsk into that number, the result would be formidable indeed. Naturally, the income will still not be as impressive as the average US income, but it is incomparable to the Third World. It will be much higher than that of the new EU members.

It is not that I am discarding it, it is that I have lived outside of Moscow for 9 years (North of Moscow, Izhevsk to be exact) and I have been in Moscow for extended periods of time. It is like a different country there. The price levels are completely different and so are the standards of living.

 
That is not so. Countries like Ireland or Germany easily beat Russia in terms of
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. It is the manner of alcohol consumption and not the actual amount which leads to such unfortunate results. Vodka belt alcoholism is usually manifested through binge drinking rather than regular consumption in moderate amounts. That means that in spite of consuming less alcohol per se, the Finns, for instance, suffer greater damage from alcoholism than the French do (see suicide statistics, for instance.)

That chart is pretty wrong. Russia is up to 15 now... I agree that the manner of consumption matters more than the amount.

Edit: what I am trying to say is that it is a HELL OF A LOT better to be average in North America than it is in Russia.

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Old 12-02-2009, 07:03 PM   #9
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  Originally Posted by Grrr
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As a Russian woman I can tell you that
a) neither me nor my female friends (afaik) dream about being taken away to America by some stranger;
b) to me Russian men are gorgeous;
c) my standards are pretty high, thank you very much.


I know quite a few Russians like that. I myself neither drink nor smoke. Stereotypes are, well, stereotypes.

Stereotypes are majorities

you are the minority, good for you, but the majority does rule

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Old 12-02-2009, 07:18 PM   #10
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  Originally Posted by Nikonman
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I think we are looking at different statistics, yours appears to be from 2004. The last reported Russian study I saw was completed in 2007 and had it, per capita, at about 15.5 litres of pure alcohol, which shot Russia past even Germany and Ireland. It was a very substantial increase from the older studies, and the basis of the new governmental efforts at curbing alcohol abuse. Regardless, it is pretty clearly a bigger problem in Russia than in the US, for what that is worth.

  Originally Posted by OneHertz
That chart is pretty wrong. Russia is up to 15 now... I agree that the manner of consumption matters more than the amount.

Could you provide a link to a more recent comparative table? The only one I managed to find is
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; according to it, the alcohol consumption rates per capita for Russia would be smaller than German or Irish ones. However, it is organised rather haphazardly. Anyway, I was describing the root of the predicament; 15.5 is still pretty much the same as in Ireland and Germany, yet the problem is clearly more pronounced. I am glad that you agree with me in this respect, OneHertz.

The exact date would be irrelevant to the discussion, since the effects of such a rapid increase in alcohol consumption on Mail-Order Russian Brides (hereinafter referred to as MORBs) would not be immediate.

 
I wasn't exactly talking about education. Having gone through Canadian education I would say that Russia is much better in that respect. The tertiary numbers make sense because there is such a thing as free post secondary education in Russia, considering you score high enough grades on the exams they give you. It is like you said, education is much less of a recipe for success over in Russia than it is in North America. More people are educated so it matters less.

I was replying in regards to the effects of feminism on the way of thinking of Russian women versus North American women.

Well, Grrr's post to which you objected stated that a woman is expected to have an education and a job. The wording of your post implied that this only applied to Moscow. However, judging by the said statistics, the extent of the expectation is greater than in the US and most other Western countries. Moscow alone would have been incapable of affecting the statistics in such a significant manner. Free or cheap tertiary education exists in most other states on the pie chart, e.g. France. (Bloody Commies)

As far as submissiveness goes, like I said, the average provincial North American woman is most likely less emancipated, feminist, cynical, and opportunist than the average MORB.

 
It is not a hell-hole. Your graph is crap because they measure it in the amount of money which is required to survive. This number can vary highly based on opinion. I bet they are also measuring it on an average. The problem isn't that the average incomes are very low, it is that there is a large separation of wealth in Russia. If you are not wealthy, you are pretty much fucked.

Sounds like a decent enough way of measuring income to me. If a DVD that costs $10 in Moscow would cost $1 in Izhevsk, one has to take that into account. One could buy a cool Moravian medieval tower if one sold one's rather average flat in Moscow, but that has little effect on the fact that the average Muscovite will realistically be able to acquire fewer products than the average Moravian. As for income inequality, it isn't
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.

 
It is not that I am discarding it, it is that I have lived outside of Moscow for 9 years (North of Moscow, Izhevsk to be exact) and I have been in Moscow for extended periods of time. It is like a different country there. The price levels are completely different and so are the standards of living.

Well, again, if the price levels are higher and the incomes aren't high enough, the standards of living will be lower. On a side note, Izhevsk isn't really to the North of Moscow, it's considerably to the East of it. *Traveller IQ*

 
Edit: what I am trying to say is that it is a HELL OF A LOT better to be average in North America than it is in Russia.

That applies to most countries in the world, from Portugal to Somalia, and is therefore of dubious use in our research on the origins of the fascinating phenomenon of MORBs. I stand by my four points (Proximity, Independence, Opportunism, Whiteness); low absolute income and sub par men aren't distinct enough phenomena for such a massive entity to gain ground.


P.S. This post, like the previous one, is a demonstration of my considerable highbrow discussion abilities. The offer still stands.

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Old 12-02-2009, 09:33 PM   #11
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Russian women are beautiful and brilliant. And Russian sounds sexy when it's whispered in your ear.

As for Russian stereotypes, I never met a Russian man that didn't smoke and drink heavily. The walls in the stairwells of Moscow State University are covered in cigarette burns, and the trash cans--which are on fire because people throw away their lit cigarettes--are filled with empty devyatki bottles. My literature professor used to smoke while lecturing.
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:55 PM   #12
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I had a Russian professor last semester who didn't look like a heavy drinker.At least at 8 or 10 AM.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:12 PM   #13
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  Originally Posted by Thoth
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As for Russian stereotypes, I never met a Russian man that didn't smoke and drink heavily.

Once again, I'm in the minority.
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Part of it could be explained by the perception bias: Russian men who drink and smoke heavily are far easier to notice than those who don't. Presumably, those "healthy" Russians wouldn't hang out at bars, smoking spots, etc...

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Old 12-03-2009, 12:56 AM   #14
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Stereotypes exist for a reason -- because there are commonalities amongst certain groups of people. By no means is it always true, but as a rule of thumb it occurs with greater probability.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:41 AM   #15
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  Originally Posted by Vagrant
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Stereotypes exist for a reason -- because there are commonalities amongst certain groups of people. By no means is it always true, but as a rule of thumb it occurs with greater probability.

I agree strongly with this. Stereotypes don't create themselves. I've found the males are very male in a traditional sense;Pride in physical strength,emotions=weakness. Perhaps the latter is why Russian men drink so much.

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Old 12-03-2009, 09:07 PM   #16
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I was born in Eastern Europe and from my experience I did see alot of alcohol consumption in all age groups (my first taste of vodka was at age 5). It is common when a neighbor or friend visits to take out the bottle. I did see that even though consumption is higher the tolerance is also much higher for alcohol. However, there were many cases of alcoholism and I have had family members with the disease. When I lived there no one would acknowledge alcoholism as a disease/problem but a choice. In fact people would turn away from alcoholics and ignore them on the street (even their own family members). I was in Europe a few years back visiting my family when I ran into my alcoholic uncle on the street and said "Hey uncle!" everyone looked at me like I was crazy talking to him (not to mention he was abusing denatured alcohol).

The liquor has also a high alcohol volume for example "Spirytus"

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I think the abuse of alcohol relates back to psychology...No one really talks about their problems or they are a "freak"...not many understand therapy how they do in the US.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:33 PM   #17
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not to mention he was abusing denatured alcohol

"Where are ye sonny? Can't see you!"

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Old 12-05-2009, 03:11 PM   #18
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  Originally Posted by Vagrant
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"Where are ye sonny? Can't see you!"

yes as I mentioned it goes back to psychological issues...I have quiet a few mental illnesses on that side of the family. I'm also a woman not a "sonny"
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Old 12-05-2009, 03:31 PM   #19
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  Originally Posted by Anhedonic Lake
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I agree strongly with this. Stereotypes don't create themselves.

While I agree with this, it should be noted that often stereotypes come into existence for reasons that make sense and then persist when they no longer make sense.

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Old 12-05-2009, 04:21 PM   #20
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Russia has two cities, Moscow and St Petersburg, which used to be called Leningrad. The rest of the country is large and cold it is called Siberia. Russian men are either amiable, yet unhygienic drunks, such as Yeltsin, or stern and domineering, such as Stalin. Russian woman are either pretty, yet heartless, prostitutes called Natasha, or they are professional weight lifters, larger than the men. The Russian economy is based on mineral extraction. They used to make machines but they never worked well. This is why a Russian toaster will weigh 100 pounds. The additional metal is to counter the rust problems. The architecture in Russian is similarly built for similar reasons.
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:48 PM   #21
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  Originally Posted by llawevets
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Stereotypes are majorities

you are the minority, good for you, but the majority does rule

So the majority of people in USA are fat republican retards?

That is a stereotype.

  Originally Posted by thod
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"Russia has two cities, Moscow and St Petersburg, which used to be called Leningrad. The rest of the country is large and cold it is called Siberia. Russian men are either amiable, yet unhygienic drunks, such as Yeltsin, or stern and domineering, such as Stalin. Russian woman are either pretty, yet heartless, prostitutes called Natasha, or they are professional weight lifters, larger than the men. The Russian economy is based on mineral extraction. They used to make machines but they never worked well. This is why a Russian toaster will weigh 100 pounds. The additional metal is to counter the rust problems. The architecture in Russian is similarly built for similar reasons."

Do you have any source on this? No wonder you ended up as an INTP.

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Old 12-05-2009, 05:18 PM   #22
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Do you have any source on this? No wonder you ended up as an INTP.

Sense of humour has always been a weak point for the INTJ.

About Russia:

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Old 12-05-2009, 05:36 PM   #23
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  Originally Posted by Night Runner
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It is a very macho culture, though...
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And the stereotypes go both ways. I knew Russian expat girls in Seattle who secretly turned up their noses behind the backs of American men for being soft, weak, spoiled... well, sissies is the polite word. They despaired of finding a Real Man.

When I hear about American/Western men more or less purchasing Russian brides, I shudder to think what's going on in those women's minds in respect to their new spouses. Those are often going to be some strong, tough, jaded women, if they are driven/willing to engineer such a position for themselves.

I agree that stereotypes don't come out of nowhere. You just have to be intelligent enough to make use of them without treating them as if they're cast in stone. Always make reassessments on an individual basis.

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Old 12-05-2009, 05:50 PM   #24
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Yes Thod our INTJ humor often offends ppl. Russian guys imo have been shaped to be high testosterone in constitution and behavior by the enviornment. Whether in a desert or frozen landscape, enviornments where you can die by being left outside away from your contemporaries is a place where if you do not have it together, and cannot function socially you are dead. Weakness will also get you killed in these enviornments.
If you want to see stupid, spoiled, lazy, immature and selfish people that sabotage themselves irresponsibly and can't get along with anybody visit California.
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:54 PM   #25
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The russians I've come across are either sailors or somehow involved in crime. Yay for stereotypes!
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