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What is Ni? What is Ne? intuition, ne, ni
Old 12-05-2008, 03:24 AM   #1
Eleven
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I'd really love a nice, clear explanation of what Ni and Ne are. I've read brief descriptions of them, but they vary a lot, and it's often difficult to work out what the difference is between them is supposed to be, even while reading them.

So, is it a matter of what we make connections between (present concepts with Ne, present and remembered concepts with Ni); is it the orientation toward the future (future oriented Ni, atemporal Ne); is it that Ni is about creative thought while Ne is about creative expression?

Links to descriptions are ok, although if they're accessible via google I've probably already seen them. A differentiation between the two in people's own words would be lovely.
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:05 AM   #2
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This is the generally accepted definition of Introverted iNtuition:
"Introverted Intuition (Ni) is the attitude that whatever is manifest (apparent, observable, described) is only the tiniest fraction of the total reality and all of its potential, and it is manifest only because it serves a purpose--a purpose that it achieves by exploiting a certain way of interpreting or navigating by signs. Ni is attunement to what lurks in the shadow of that manifestation. What is that assumed way of interpreting or navigating? What could we see if we were free of it?"

Extroverted iNtuition, from Wikisocion:
"Extroverted intuition is generally associated with the ability to recognize possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize talent and natural propensities in others, reconcile differing perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate ideas, and be led by one's intellectual curiosity and stimulate curiosity in others. "

So, Ni deals with future potential and Ne deals with possibility.
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:23 AM   #3
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Terian - thanks for those.

Your description of Ni looks to be far more fundamental than merely being about 'future potential', though - Whatever is apparent is only a fraction of reality? What is apparent is only so because that interpretation is useful? If Ni gives us access to anything that goes beyond this kind of stuff, then it sounds more like a total perspective shift out of a 'normal' frame of mind, and into another. Is that at all accurate, or am I misinterpreting?
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:28 AM   #4
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  Originally Posted by Eleven
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Terian - thanks for those.

Your description of Ni looks to be far more fundamental than merely being about 'future potential', though - Whatever is apparent is only a fraction of reality? What is apparent is only so because that interpretation is useful? If Ni gives us access to anything that goes beyond this kind of stuff, then it sounds more like a total perspective shift out of a 'normal' frame of mind, and into another. Is that at all accurate, or am I misinterpreting?

Ni views one's perspective as simply a part of the big picture- and the big picture is constantly moving towards a goal. Ni likes to see the big picture now, and months from now. That pretty much sums up Introverted iNtuition.

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Old 12-05-2008, 05:18 AM   #5
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  Originally Posted by Terian
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Ni views one's perspective as simply a part of the big picture- and the big picture is constantly moving towards a goal. Ni likes to see the big picture now, and months from now. That pretty much sums up Introverted iNtuition.

Ok, so...what would it be if a person viewed one's perspective as a part of the big picture, but took an atemporal view of the whole generally, rather than being focused specifically on the future, or on some goal? What if that Ni detachment from personal perspective took place in a general understanding of reality? Is that Ni, Ne, both, or something else?





Eleven added to this post, 46 minutes and 3 seconds later...

Ok, how's this for an approximation of the distinction:

Ni: Shifts the perspective from which a concept/theory/model is viewed, which may result in transcending the model and arriving at solutions that redefine the problem/new paradigms, and

Ne: Makes immediate connections between disparate concepts/theories/models, which may lead to the generation of new possibilities or ideas.

How does that look to people?

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Old 12-05-2008, 08:27 AM   #6
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It sounds like you're on the right track.

 
Introverted iNtuition (Ni)

Foreseeing
Conceptualizing
Understanding complex patterns
Synthesizing and symbolizing
Future

"This is how it will be."
"Aha, that's it!"


Extraverted iNtuiting (Ne)

Inferring
Hypothesizing
Seeing possibilities
Wondering and brainstorming
Emergent

"This is what might be."
"It could be this or this or this or . . ."

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Old 12-05-2008, 12:49 PM   #7
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I know I used my Ni heavily last night on my Ochem test, especially on some of the NMR problems.

Basically, it looks for patterns and connections. I was having trouble figuring out the structure of a certain compound, and out of nowhere, my intuition gave me the entire thing without explaining why -- it just knew. And I worked it out, and it was correct as far as I could tell. I think Ni explores what it sees, and makes connections.
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:54 PM   #8
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Ni uses functions that my rational mind can't follow. It's like the Zen proverb "You can't see your eyes." It's trusting different parts of your mind which don't use words to communicate and allowing them to take action.

As an example, I had left my friends house in a van that I rented some years ago. Usually at the time I drove a motorcycle and I wasn't used to driving a van. All of the windows were fogged up and, like a dumbass, I still drove it even though all I could see a two foot window in front of me.

I drove half a block when there was an enormous compulsion to jerk the wheel to the left. I felt it and allowed it to do so in the moment. I narrowly missed hitting a parked car that I couldn't see.

I'll allow that part of my mind could see it, or saw it as I left the house and computed that according to the angle I was driving at I would hit it. But rationally I was not aware of it.
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:56 PM   #9
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  Originally Posted by Eleven
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Ni: Shifts the perspective from which a concept/theory/model is viewed, which may result in transcending the model and arriving at solutions that redefine the problem/new paradigms, and

Ne: Makes immediate connections between disparate concepts/theories/models, which may lead to the generation of new possibilities or ideas.

Yes, that looks about right. That's why Ni is called "convergent" [Ni looks at a concept/theory in an all-encompassing perspective and picks the best scenario] and Ne "divergent," as
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says.

Also, if you look at
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-> "Contrasting Ni and Ne" and "Rate yourself," you can get a better understanding of Ni and Ne.

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Old 12-05-2008, 06:53 PM   #10
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I think I'm getting an idea of the difference (although at infjorinfp.com, different perspectives get listed under Ne, which is confusing).

The reason it's been difficult, I think, is that I do use both processes, and I don't always use them separately and under different circumstances - I use them both at once. So they really kind of seem like one big process to me.

Based on the descriptions at that site, though, I think I lean toward Ne a little bit more than Ni.
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:10 PM   #11
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My understanding is that Ni fills in the blanks of a story as best as it can. People who have high Ni appear to know what is going to happen (future oriented), whilst people with lower Ni appear flummoxed by this 'magic' ability of the person with high Ni (they don't see things coming, or understand the reasons behind a situtation as readily).

Ne is a little more obscure for me because I don't use it as well as Ni (but I'm working on it!). I think its about creating something from nothing, as opposed to creating an explanation and extrapolating that into future events with Ni. It's visualising what could be, basically from scratch (but drawing on the many alternate knowledge systems built up in the mind already).

Both very useful, in my opinion. Rather have N than S any day!
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:57 PM   #12
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actually, now i'm even more confused... because I wonder if it's Ne I'd been using rather than Ni... i've read the description presented in the INFJ or INFP blog... and I realize that i've done Ne more and much better than Ni... so that cancels out INTJ... -_-;;;

i'd been mistyped... ^^;;;;
well... at least i'm still an NT...
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Old 12-06-2008, 05:49 AM   #13
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This is what I think:
Ni needs something to work with, and is good at filling in the blanks. It's more used in reality.
Ne is more creative and creates something from nothing. It's more used in abstraction.
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:00 PM   #14
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  Originally Posted by Kisai
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I drove half a block when there was an enormous compulsion to jerk the wheel to the left. I felt it and allowed it to do so in the moment. I narrowly missed hitting a parked car that I couldn't see.

I'll allow that part of my mind could see it, or saw it as I left the house and computed that according to the angle I was driving at I would hit it. But rationally I was not aware of it.

This isn't Ni, this is dumb blind (literally) luck.

Ni to me is like understanding without understanding. I often know things without knowing why or how I know them. Without having any past anecdotes to back them up, and without the ability to verbalize what I know. I have dreams, or where I'm in a lucid state, in which I will figure out what words mean or break them down and gaining and understanding without ever having known what they meant in my awaken state. This happens a few times a year and I'll wake up and verify online and I'm always right. Eerie, but awesome!

I have no idea with Ne is, and asked my INTP friend once and he said that he'll hear people say things, and he'll instantly morph what he hears into some other possibility. Like he'll often hear a word or sentence spoken and he'll repeat the sentence only using the exact opposite words. But then, I can do that, too. I asked him what else Ne meant, but I don't think he really knew. I told him what Ni is and he was surprised and said he does not have that. So I think I understand Ni, but have no clue what Ne is.

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Old 12-09-2008, 03:49 AM   #15
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Ni takes shortcuts inside your mind. It is not a process of thoughts, it is just static pieces of knowledge. My Ni never argues with me. It just is. Solid. Like a rock in the middle of a river. Usualy, you have no idea how the rocks got there.

Ni needs time to gather information and to process them; the results usually show up much later then when you actually needed it.

Sometimes it is direct verbal thoughts (like "That driver over there might be an idiot. Time to switch lanes."). More often it is just a "vibration" about how someone or something is going to behave. It is not to be confused with feeling/likeing somebody or something, because the two are totally different. For example, you can have a kind of negative Ni-precognition about someone you like, that does not matter.

It can drive you crazy to infer later where the insight came from because often it is stuff that your conscious Te cannot explain.

In contrast to Ne, it is always a single voice.

This is how I perceive my Ni:
  • it tells you things you should not be able to know: what the professor is going to say next in a lecture that you have never been to before and on a topic you don't know anything about
  • it tells you how people tick that you have met 5 minutes ago and if you can trust them; there is no information to back this up, but you know it anyway.


Ne: I do not seem to use it too often, but I have a good friend of mine (untested) who seems to be rely on this a lot.

Ne is more like a stew. Chunks of what you hear and read float around inside your mind, bouncing at each other. Here and there, they are forming new ideas and associations as they meet. The Ne-user is like the cook whose job it is to create new, exotic flavours.

People using strong Ne always seem to have these chunks inside their mind; they seem to be processing information for associations and links constantly.

Ne seems to be more fluid/dynamic, ideas constantly evolving or on the edge of dissolving. Ne seems to be multiple "voices", chatting inside your mind.
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Those of you who watch "House MD", remeber his moments of insight, usually just before the end of each episode: somebody says a sentence, related to a non-medical problem. House stands still for a moment, then rushes to the patient. He has connected this sentence to all the little facts floating inside his mind about the current case. I imagine it is like a final lego brick, falling into place. I guess Ne-users have this sort of ideas all the time.
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:17 AM   #16
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  Originally Posted by just a user
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Ni takes shortcuts inside your mind. It is not a process of thoughts, it is just static pieces of knowledge. My Ni never argues with me. It just is. Solid. Like a rock in the middle of a river. Usualy, you have no idea how the rocks got there.

Ni needs time to gather information and to process them; the results usually show up much later then when you actually needed it.

Sometimes it is direct verbal thoughts (like "That driver over there might be an idiot. Time to switch lanes."). More often it is just a "vibration" about how someone or something is going to behave.

It can drive you crazy to infer later where the insight came from because often it is stuff that your conscious Te cannot explain.

In contrast to Ne, it is always a single voice.

This is how I perceive my Ni: [LIST][*]it tells you things you should not be able to know: what the professor is going to say next in a lecture that you have never been to before and on a topic you don't know anything about[*]it tells you how people tick that you have met 5 minutes ago and if you can trust them; there is no information to back this up, but you know it anyway.

This explains it pretty clearly; I think I can sort of see the difference between Ni and Ne... and realize that maybe I really don't utilize Ne... at all.

It makes so much sense. Thanks for the easy explanation. It seems I do use Ni more than Ne. Never had that "Stew chunk metaphor" situation... but definitely had more of those "OMG, I don't know why, but I have a "feeling" we're going to "do this" in class".

I don't know which to believe... too many conflicting information all over the place... if I follow your explanation, then I was right in thinking I used Ni and not Ne; if I follow someone else's, then I'm using Ne over Ni.

I think... that Cognitive Process Test screwed me up.

That's it... no more of this back and forth idling about my type... after exams are over, I'm going book-digging and figuring this out... although now i'm about 70% positive I use Ni.

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Old 12-09-2008, 05:22 AM   #17
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As for how Ni works, check this out:
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. Lynch's explanation ("going fishing") is one of the coolest explanation of Ni that I know of.

This link has been posted in this forum before when Ni was discussed.


Also, the blog itself has some interesting stuff about movies and type discussions.
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Old 12-09-2008, 10:16 AM   #18
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  Originally Posted by just a user
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As for how Ni works, check this out:
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. Lynch's explanation ("going fishing") is one of the coolest explanation of Ni that I know of.

This link has been posted in this forum before when Ni was discussed.


Also, the blog itself has some interesting stuff about movies and type discussions.

thanks for that link.
I'm pretty convinced by now that I've probably not used Ne before in my life.

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Old 12-09-2008, 03:45 PM   #19
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  Originally Posted by just a user
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This is how I perceive my Ni:
  • it tells you things you should not be able to know: what the professor is going to say next in a lecture that you have never been to before and on a topic you don't know anything about
  • it tells you how people tick that you have met 5 minutes ago and if you can trust them; there is no information to back this up, but you know it anyway.

Although I agree with your assessment, I think it is wrong to say that there is no information to back this up. On the conscious level, we don't think there is. But of course there is. Every clue we perceive is telling a story, and sometimes, subconsciously, we are able to fill in the story with incomplete information. In other words, I don't think Ni is some sort of psychic power. It certainly seems like it, though.

I think Ni is used in poker with very good players, who have the ability to know when someone is bluffing, or, not necessarily when they're bluffing, but when they know they're good. And they'll call and be right. There is a story being told with each bet, and throughout the entire tournament, and perhaps also with physical "tells", that all adds up to the ending of the chapter which may be you calling his bet and scooping the pot, but not being able to clarify why you knew to call.

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Old 12-09-2008, 05:18 PM   #20
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Of course you're right. Just to make that clear, I don't believe in psychic powers.

Maybe Ni (as far, as it deals with people) is a very good instinctive knowledge about body language?

Maybe these players, i.e. the one who seem to be good, show a very self-confident body language?

I guess from your post that you are a Poker player yourself? Have you ever used your Ni in online poker where you can not necessarily "see" the other players? It would be interesting if such a story can be picked up under these circumstances.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:23 PM   #21
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  Originally Posted by just a user
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I guess from your post that you are a Poker player yourself? Have you ever used your Ni in online poker where you can not necessarily "see" the other players? It would be interesting if such a story can be picked up under these circumstances.

I used to play online a lot and was a winning player, but stopped in October of 2006 when Bush passed some stupid ass bill that froze our accounts. Yeah online you can't see the people but if you sit with them for a while and watch their betting patters you can decipher how they play and, like I said, it all adds up to a story they're not deliberately wanting to tell. I think Ni goes a long way here in filling in the gaps. Poker is a great game because you're forced to make decisions with incomplete information.

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Old 12-09-2008, 08:08 PM   #22
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  Originally Posted by INTJoe
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This happens a few times a year and I'll wake up and verify online and I'm always right. Eerie, but awesome!

You lead with a process that you only use a few times a year? Or is what you described just a small part of Ni?

Question for anyone - is it Ni when you have a realisation that is an instant total understanding of some concept, but you weren't aware of the processes that gave you it? That subconscious processing? When you're trying to understand a concept, and it suddenly all falls into place and you understand it, but before you put words to that understanding?

  Originally Posted by Ace1337
Ni needs something to work with, and is good at filling in the blanks. It's more used in reality.
Ne is more creative and creates something from nothing. It's more used in abstraction.

I find this odd. I'm not saying it's not true, because I'm really not certain with my Ni/Ne definitions, but why would the extroverted version be more abstract and independent of reality, while the introverted version needs a basis in reality from which to work?

I do get the convergence/divergence thing though, and this looks like it might be another way of saying something like that.

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Old 12-09-2008, 09:37 PM   #23
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  Originally Posted by Eleven
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You lead with a process that you only use a few times a year? Or is what you described just a small part of Ni?

Question for anyone - is it Ni when you have a realisation that is an instant total understanding of some concept, but you weren't aware of the processes that gave you it? That subconscious processing? When you're trying to understand a concept, and it suddenly all falls into place and you understand it, but before you put words to that understanding?

No, the few times a year thing is just in regards to what I specifically described. That was just one concrete example I could think of.

What you've written herein about Ni is precisely how I feel about it. Sometimes, it just hits you as to how something complex, like, say, global economics, works. (I think I just set the record for most commas. Some of them may be superfluous).

Anyway, you suddenly gain this crystal clear understanding of a very complex concept, and yet you don't know how you got there, and you might not even have been actively trying to. Ni is very passive, imo. It just nails you and it's awesome. What sucks, though, is trying to convince people, especially when you have no concrete evidence to back it up, and can't tell them how or why you know. You just know.*

*You think you know. Of course INTJs aren't error-proof. This isn't to imply that you are always correct in your understanding of, in this example, global economics, but for all intents and purposes, you feel you understand it.

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Old 12-09-2008, 11:17 PM   #24
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  Originally Posted by jikin
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It sounds like you're on the right track.

Quote:
Introverted iNtuition (Ni)

Foreseeing
Conceptualizing
Understanding complex patterns
Synthesizing and symbolizing
Future

"This is how it will be."
"Aha, that's it!"


Extraverted iNtuiting (Ne)

Inferring
Hypothesizing
Seeing possibilities
Wondering and brainstorming
Emergent

"This is what might be."
"It could be this or this or this or . . ."

This makes sense within my experience. I work with and ENTJ and an ENFJ. Very different personality types but they´re both like that, execpt that they come to very different conclusions. The ENFJ usually will choose the most beautiful "this" while the ENTJ will ignore most of the "this" and stick to what he already knows and has done before.

What's most bothering is that both, once they made a decision, are very difficult to convince to make changes, even when they´re small changes. I guess that with every little change the whole "it could be this, or this or this or,... " process starts all over again.

Is it that the Ni thinks everything through before he even considers to talk about something? Is it that the Ne just needs that whole thinking process to be done in a meeting with other people (because of the extroversy maybe) ?

I often am in the situation that to me it's clear what to do, and want to already make the decision, but then end up in a 1.5 hour meeting discussing something where my only goal is to make sure they eventually make the decision I had in mind already. And often walk out of the meeting without any decision at all!!!!

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Old 12-09-2008, 11:59 PM   #25
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  Originally Posted by PeterIMC
Is it that the Ni thinks everything through before he even considers to talk about something? Is it that the Ne just needs that whole thinking process to be done in a meeting with other people (because of the extroversy maybe) ?

No - at least, not if what I usually do is Ne (and I'm starting ot conclude that I use Ne more than Ni).

The way in which my intuition is most obviously extroverted, I think, is that it's so often triggered by some external stimulus. If someone says something, or if I read or see or even think something, I get an automatic understanding of it as per usual, but I also often get an automatic reinterpretation in another context - a different application of the same concept, or a very similar but modified concept. It's like constantly generating ideas based on what's in front of me at the time. There's an internal element, though - it's like my N constantly makes connections between whatever the external stimulus is and whatever interests me personally (for example, I love fantasy, and often get fantastic reinterpretations of things). It makes the external world relevant to my frame of interest, providing my internal processing (Ti) with material to manipulate.

I think that's Ne, because it's generating possibilities (divergent), and triggered most often by external stuff. But it's definitely not that it only works when interacting with people. It's also not really about 'thinking things through', because once you're thinking it through, you're using Ti (or Te for an INTJ, I guess) on what your N has provided you.

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