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PugNinja

Cheating ..

73 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, thoughtjourney said:

I don't think your example supports your point. Don Draper is quite lost and this is the driving force of the entire show.

First and foremost, I would long argue that Don Draper is not in any way lost and knows exactly who he is, what he wants and how to get it. Though for the sake of argument, let us assume that you're right; I'd still argue that he isn't any more "lost" than any of the other characters on the show, and given that these other characters don't cheat there's obviously a deeper explanation that extend well beyond the criteria you cited.

Just look at Betty for an example. She easily fits all the criteria you mentioned as reasons for cheating; she was lonely, frightened, lost, thwarted, angry and/or trapped, and yet she didn't cheat until AFTER she found out about her husband's romantic infidelity. Meaning Don was driven by lust and Betty was driven by spite. 

All this evidence supports my original assertion: 

3 hours ago, Deprecator said:

He only cheated because smoking hot women always wanted him and he was a horndog.

 

 
 
...... added to this post 18 minutes later:
 
4 hours ago, coineineagh said:

Some people object to their partner dressing too revealingly, or hanging out with the opposite gender.

Which for the record, in terms of ethical implications I'd long argue that this type of controlling behavior is far worse for a relationship than cheating could ever be. 

Edited by Deprecator

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20 minutes ago, Deprecator said:

Which for the record, in terms of ethical implications I'd long argue that this type of controlling behavior is far worse for a relationship than cheating could ever be. 

Sounds noble and correct in principle, but the reality is that if your partner has too much freedom, opportunities to cheat increase.

There's usually a balance between showing excessive concern for a partner's activities, and being so permissive that it seems you don't care. There are two directions you can veer off the right path.

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23 hours ago, Deprecator said:

Lots of benefits come out from cheating. First and foremost, if "cheating" is in any way analogous to other sexual related "crimes," then the vast majority of perpetrators are never caught; meaning there is a guaranteed, in the moment thrill with a low chance for all the cry-baby drama that the previous posters brought up.

Also, have you ever tried breaking up with someone? It's not exactly uncommon for women to internalize blame; they start needlessly crying, start nattering about what's wrong with them, ask what they can do differently, tell you that they can change, insist on learning specific reasons cited for the breakup, try and argue against cited reasons... any which way you look at it it's an absolute nightmare and if you're a normal person who's in any way motivated to avoid this conversation then all you have to do is cheat. This action makes it that much easier for women to externalize the blame and make YOU the bad guy. Any which way you look at it, cheating can help make life just that much simpler for everyone.

@Deprecator this is what I was referring to. I don't see the validity of that argument. Couldn't you just block the person and cut her out of your life instead of cheating? Your argument to me is funny, because that just doesn't seem serious to me. I am sorry if I offended you. Plus, by cheating you will get even more drama. Maybe I completely misunderstood your argument?

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Shit partners deserve to be cheated on. Though I think it is more honorable to be upfront, but sometimes people don't take change at all by having a conversation. Personally I wouldn't date someone who won't shape up in a relationship through normal communication or will break up without a mess. 

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After having experienced both ends multiple times I am going to say that cheating is a good indication that you or the other person is not entirely fulfilled with the relationship. Better just to break up than further damage the relationship or how people perceive your character. 

The idea with open relationships can be that you would fulfilled by pulling from multiple partners but it really just leads to a tug of war for attention and prevents you from reaching the depth of connection you could have with an exclusive mate.

Just find the one. They exist somewhere. 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, INTJ-123 said:

I don't see the validity of that argument.

The argument is predicated upon the assumption that sex has value. If for whatever reason you don't believe that sex has value (a very common belief held by women) then it's nearly impossible to understand the validity of the argument. 

7 hours ago, INTJ-123 said:

Couldn't you just block the person and cut her out of your life instead of cheating?

No doubt you could... though as far as hurt feelings are concerned, do you honestly think that "ghosting" a former romantic partner without any explanation is any better than cheating on them? 

7 hours ago, INTJ-123 said:

Your argument to me is funny

The process of deriving humor is often predicated upon assertions which are inherently truthful in nature.

7 hours ago, INTJ-123 said:

Plus, by cheating you will get even more drama.

Again, how many times did you have to cheat on a partner before you were able to come to this conclusion? Mind you, this question is strictly rhetorical because I already know you've previously admitted that you haven't cheated, so once again you're continuing with baseless speculation that is motivated by hurt feelings and lingering resentment. 

Regardless, lets phrase the concept differently. The manner in which a relationship ends after learning about romantic infidelity might be different from the manner in which a relationship ends without learning about romantic infidelity. Objectively speaking, the manner of one ending isn't necessarily "better" or "worse" than the manner of another ending, which means in the end it boils down to personal preference. So if for whatever reason you like drama, and if what you say is true and cheating will cause more drama, then once again there is a perfectly valid incentive to cheat.

Edited by Deprecator

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12 hours ago, JetBlastJoe said:

I was asked to provide positives, so I did.

Yes, and your possible "positives" were humorous. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, coineineagh said:

Sounds noble and correct in principle

I can only imagine the type of mental gymnastics needed to pull this one off. In principle controlling behavior is worse than cheating, but in reality controlling behavior is better than cheating?

2 hours ago, coineineagh said:

the reality is that if your partner has too much freedom, opportunities to cheat increase.

The reality is that specific freedoms or opportunities that may or may not increase the likelihood for cheating is something that your partner should always be able decide for themselves, not something that you should be deciding on their behalf. 

Edited by Deprecator

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Posted (edited)

Cheating affects the possibility of long-term and personal relationships and is also a predicament of the strength of marriage and when having children which it's the hard part of the relantionship(also they tend to be loyal to no-one due to their addiction to the thrill), there are studies where people who constantly cheat on their partner have lower possibility of commitment and with the kids and they tend to do It several years and even after marriage.

The purpose of having trusting relantionships is to have children and continue the evolutionary chain , if u plan to cheat as well leave the evolutionary chain and let other people continue the ongoing cycle(which bring more purpose for humanity).

Edited by paulcod
Overexageration and didn't take into account personal issues.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Deprecator said:

I can only imagine the type of mental gymnastics needed to pull this one off. In principle controlling behavior is worse than cheating, but in reality controlling behavior is better than cheating?

The reality is that specific freedoms or opportunities that may or may not increase the likelihood for cheating is something that your partner should always be able decide for themselves, not something that you should be deciding on their behalf. 

I guess you are of the firm belief that nothing bad happens when people are given too much freedom. Governments on the contrary, are of the firm belief that there is nothing more disruptive than unoccupied young people with too much time on their hands. Entire employment strategies are in place just to keep young people off the streets, and it's more about maintaining status quo (the 'relationship' with society) than crime or drugs or whatever is claimed.

Relationships aren't the noble, dignified, idealized state we make them out to be. Sometimes it can be important to affirm your attractiveness to the opposite (if hetero) sex, in order to keep your partner attentive, responsive and appreciative. The phenomenon is well known among relationship therapists and sociologists. Showing a little concern about your partner's activities, in moderation, shows that you don't just take their loyalty for granted.

Sometimes cheating is the natural result of a disengaged, unresponsive partner taking a person for granted. In that context, sometimes the cheater can even be considered the one least at fault.

And yes, as an INTJ, I know the perception of being unresponsive can sneak up on you. I was also cheated on, when I felt I had done little to warrant it. But everything makes sense to the person doing it at the time. And sometimes people's sensibilities do not align well.

Edited by coineineagh

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4 minutes ago, coineineagh said:

Relationships aren't the noble, dignified, idealized state we make them out to be.

I'm amazed that you've taken it upon yourself to speak on behalf of so many people. Whatever you think romantic relationships are or are not, surely that's a subjective impression that you've decided to make on your own, as I can mostly certainly claim that I cannot in any way relate to this mentality. 

9 minutes ago, coineineagh said:

Sometimes it can be important to affirm your attractiveness to the opposite (if hetero) sex, in order to keep your partner attentive, responsive and appreciative.

lol what? Can anyone else verify if this is actually a thing for normal relationships? I most certainly did not receive this memo and in terms of results I can safely say I have not in any way been hampered by my apparent ignorance. Though if this is in fact a legitimate theory then for my sake I'd hope you'd consider expanding on the "affirm your attractiveness" part with some actual specifics. 

12 minutes ago, coineineagh said:

The phenomenon is well known among relationship therapists

I must say that given your most bizarre assumptions, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you'd be so familiar with relationship therapist dogma.

17 minutes ago, coineineagh said:

the cheater can even be considered the one least at fault.

Ah yes, I've always loved the blame games that people like to play. And out of curiosity, what do the relationship therapists say about it? Are blame games helpful for relationships or are they detrimental for relationships? I wouldn't openly presume one way or the other so permit me to be enigmatic... maybe there's yet another thing I've been doing wrong this entire time. 

6 hours ago, Deprecator said:

I can only imagine the type of mental gymnastics needed to pull this one off.

If nothing else I wasn't disappointed.

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6 minutes ago, Deprecator said:

If nothing else I wasn't disappointed.

We often accuse other people of what we are doing ourselves. In your case, you are bending over backwards to dismiss every argument as wrong wrong wrong, when it doesn't align with your views. It's not that I don't share a lot of your views (I don't want to cheat or be cheated on either), but I think it's pointless to deny that there's complexity to relationships, and some people (and their relationships) thrive on interactions like flirting and even cheating.

Here's a few example stories relating to my 'obscure hypothesis'.

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Please login or register to see this link. - starts with "I bet the majority of people in relationships who are reading this just raised their eyebrows with looks of disapproval."

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Spoiler

Flirting- Always Serves A Purpose

Northern Illinois University professor David Dryden Henningsen, a leading researcher on flirting, offers a comprehensive definition. He defines flirting as ambiguous goal-motivated behaviors that can be, but are not restricted to being, interpreted as sexually motivated. This definition emphasizes flirting’s goal-motivated and ambiguous nature as essential characteristics. It’s these motivations and intentions that distinguish playful flirting from acts of infidelity. Dr. Henningsen has identified six motivations for flirting as follows:

Playfully Motivated

This is playful bantering and teasing that’s enjoyable to both parties and motivated by fun. It’s a harmless and innocent activity that makes neither party uncomfortable.

Relationally Motivated

Healthy flirting between partners who seek to intensify the intimacy in their relationship.

Esteem Motivated

When flirting is well-received and reciprocated it feels good and might boost self-esteem. So, men and women engage in flirting because it is flattering and makes them feel attractive. People also flirt to compliment or make another feel better about themselves.

Instrumental Motivation

This is flirting used to persuade someone to do something for you. As one of my friends pointed out, “I might flirt with the bartender to get my drinks quicker, but that doesn’t mean I want to go home with him.”

Exploring Motivation

The ambiguous nature of flirting makes it easy to indirectly convey romantic or sexual interest with a lowered risk of rejection. So, men and women flirt to gauge, test, and explore whether another person is interested in beginning a relationship.

Sexually Motivated

This is flirting motivated by a desire to facilitate sexual contact or a sexual relationship.

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On ‎2017‎-‎06‎-‎16 at 1:24 AM, PugNinja said:

Are there any positives that come out from cheating ..

Depends... if cheating ends up in a break up of an already dysfunctional relationship I would say yes...

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1 hour ago, coineineagh said:

It's not that I don't share a lot of your views (I don't want to cheat or be cheated on either)

Just as you made assumptions about how people view relationships, once again you're making assumptions about what my views are. And as much as I'd be thrilled to read the 6 articles that both support your most bizarre assumptions and undermine my criticism, by chance do you have a TLDR so that I can just criticize that instead? Forgive me, but without bothering to explain your grievance with my clear and upfront criticism then surely you can understand my skepticism that any of these "expert relationship articles" might possess even the slightest degree of legitimacy. 

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Deprecator said:

Just as you made assumptions about how people view relationships, once again you're making assumptions about what my views are. And as much as I'd be thrilled to read the 6 articles that both support your most bizarre assumptions and undermine my criticism, by chance do you have a TLDR so that I can just criticize that instead? Forgive me, but without bothering to explain your grievance with my clear and upfront criticism then surely you can understand my skepticism that any of these "expert relationship articles" might possess even the slightest degree of legitimacy. 

Well isn't that just a perfectly reasonable explanation for why my arguments are not deserving of your attention. Thanks for stopping by to reaffirm your righteousness. I guess we must take your word that your views are too sophisticated to besmudge with the tiresome effort of debating substance.

To be clear: you don't have to refute every article I linked to. They're just public media from a quick Google search, not peer-reviewed scientific articles.

Edited by coineineagh

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3 minutes ago, coineineagh said:

Thanks for stopping by to reaffirm your righteousness.

Whatever if I may or may not be trying to reaffirm, at the very least I'm not a hypocrite. And by this I mean, good luck trying to find any post of mine where I resort to linking a half-dozen articles as opposed to just explaining a view on my own. 

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Cheating/affairs is a recipe for disaster.

I have cheated whilst being extremely drunk ( years ago , when younger) and while it made me closer to my partner at the time, the self loathing and guilt made it all the more awful, especially as I could care less about sex.

My last partner who I thought was a 'soul mate' cheated on me while I was overseas and that was devastating.  The OW was looking for a 'baby daddy' and got what she wanted; the pregnancy, the kid...the lot.  In hindsight she did me a favour.

Apparently the five elements that are necessary for a successful r'ship are Love, Trust, Respect, Chemistry, Like ( loving and liking your partner are different).  All five elements need to be present. If one or both parties cheat or have an affair, the trust and respect  are the first links in the chain to be broken. Then it is only a matter of time before the relationship falls apart. This seems to hold true , based on my experience.

Currently I wonder if the human species is cut out for monogamy. This social construct has certainly bred an inborn element of possessiveness  and jealousy.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

If it wasn't for cheating I would probably never get a relationship. The ladies simply fight over me far too much. I am forever trying to cheat some petty social system and find what I love.

Edited by Dohavior

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4 hours ago, Dohavior said:

If it wasn't for cheating I would probably never get a relationship. The ladies simply fight over me far too much. I am forever trying to cheat some petty social system and find what I love.

Fair enough ..:)

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On 6/16/2017 at 0:24 AM, PugNinja said:

Are there any positives that come out from cheating ..

Most definitely, at least from the perspective of the person who was cheated on,

  • one becomes less materialistic after having been cheated on
  • one learns to not attach self-worth to antiquated concepts like "loyalty" and "devotion"
  • one becomes freer and more independent when recovering from the spell of someone they loved who cheated on them
  • one becomes liberated from the primal behavior of jealousy

 

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18 minutes ago, ENFPEACE said:

Most definitely, at least from the perspective of the person who was cheated on,

  • one becomes less materialistic after having been cheated on
  • one learns to not attach self-worth to antiquated concepts like "loyalty" and "devotion"
  • one becomes freer and more independent when recovering from the spell of someone they loved who cheated on them
  • one becomes liberated from the primal behavior of jealousy

 

I understand the majority but why not as materialistic ..

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52 minutes ago, PugNinja said:

I understand the majority but why not as materialistic ..

Because everything they, as a couple, were working on to benefit both in a relationship is shattered. Take the fucking house, I'm outta here.

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14 minutes ago, FORE said:

Because everything they, as a couple, were working on to benefit both in a relationship is shattered. Take the fucking house, I'm outta here.

Doh me .yes I get it ..

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