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zonsop

Manipulation

Posted (edited)

How do you determine whether a set of actions or words constitutes emotional manipulation? Where is the line drawn between getting what you want (because you too, have rights and needs) and manipulating another person (a partner, suitor, potential partner, this sort of relationship)? 

  • At a personal level
  • In general
Edited by zonsop
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5 minutes ago, Sperare said:

Know your rights 

Hi Sprerare, what do you consider to be your rights (and in which role)? How are they the same or different to someone else in the same role? 

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7 minutes ago, zonsop said:

Hi Sprerare, what do you consider to be your rights (and in which role)? How are they the same or different to someone else in the same role? 

Know your rights mean know the boundaries so that way you would not get manipulated. You can learn this by experience, read people's comments on a similar situation, and ask questions.

Those who are untenable are often subject to manipulation and that is because he or she doesn't know his or her rights and therefore he or she can't make the right decision of how to ''act'' or response to unfair treatments 

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Posted (edited)

I dont think healthy relationships really need manipulation back and forth. You can just be upfront, communicate clearly and openly. Both sides give and take accordingly to keep a balance. You take the other into consideration enough so that they feel happy and fulfilled. Pretty simple actually.

Edited by Nicoloco90

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Relationships don't require manipulation but they do require a reasonable amount of tact since it's not necessary to blurt out every.single.thing.

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14 hours ago, zonsop said:

How do you determine whether a set of actions or words constitutes emotional manipulation? Where is the line drawn between getting what you want (because you too, have rights and needs) and manipulating another person (a partner, suitor, potential partner, this sort of relationship)? 

  • At a personal level
  • In general

Most of the time, I am fully aware of a person attempting to manipulate me. I decide if I want to comply anyway based on my feelings about that person. The line moves.

For example, I put up with way too much shit from parents, especially from my mom. I would never allow anyone else to get away with it. I know it's because I feel sorry for her. When I do put my foot down, I do so fully aware that I'll have to deal with the fallout. Most of the time it's just not worth it to me to deal with it.

Are you asking about all relationships, or specifically about romantic relationships?

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51 minutes ago, Distance said:

Relationships don't require manipulation but they do require a reasonable amount of tact since it's not necessary to blurt out every.single.thing.

I'd call that self-explanatory.... but yes, tact helps.

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Just now, Nicoloco90 said:

I'd call that self-explanatory.... but yes, tact helps.

Likely true to an NFP but not necessarily to other types.

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, Distance said:

Likely true to an NFP but not necessarily to other types.

Sure, I'll teach them >=) 

Edited by Nicoloco90

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14 hours ago, zonsop said:

How do you determine whether a set of actions or words constitutes emotional manipulation? Where is the line drawn between getting what you want (because you too, have rights and needs) and manipulating another person (a partner, suitor, potential partner, this sort of relationship)? 

  • At a personal level
  • In general

Emotional manipulation is part of a power struggle. If you have to emotionally manipulate somebody you don't have a good relationship with that person. You never have the right to emotionally manipulate somebody else into doing what you want. Needs are not equal to rights. Nobody is obligated to do what you want no matter how nice you are. And that is why women hate nice guys. They aren't really nice; they are just trying to manipulate their way to the pussy.

 

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13 minutes ago, AesSedai said:

Are you asking about all relationships, or specifically about romantic relationships?

Mostly romantic relationships but I'm open to discussion on all types of relationship too. 

The situations in mind that triggered this thread were for instance, when a woman cries to gain sympathy (this may not be a conscious strategy but the intention is to manipulate) or when a guy  showers a woman with attention and affection but at the back of his mind knows that what he can give a woman doesn't match up to what she's asking for, and he conceals this. These sort of situations; though on the flip side, I understand that not all actions that steer another person a little are necessarily ill-intentioned or qualify as 'manipulative', so where is the line? 

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It bothers me a bit when women automatically get labeled as manipulating others when they cry. Maybe there are women that do that, but so many of us try and fail to contain our emotions.

Honestly, if I could not cry in front of my partner without being accused of manipulating, it probably would not last. My husband is the person in front of whom I can be myself. I don't have to hold anything in, and I spend all day polishing my reactions for others.

I do apologize if this commentary is not what you meant for your thread, my intention was just to point out that crying is not automatically manipulative, so I'm not sure how your line can be drawn in that respect.

 

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everything's emotional manipulation whether you're aware of it or not. the way of dressing, speaking, and actions are only part of manipulating the way you feel to what is the actual person.

being aware of someone actively manipulating you has different effects - you can choose the way you view the manipulation as genuine care or as malicious and sinister, or further than that.

18 hours ago, zonsop said:

1. How do you determine whether a set of actions or words constitutes emotional manipulation?

2. Where is the line drawn between getting what you want (because you too, have rights and needs) and manipulating another person (a partner, suitor, potential partner, this sort of relationship)? 

  • a. At a personal level
  • b. In general

1. when what i usually by habit or rote think or feel is actively different &/or changes [not necessarily for good or bad]

2. a. when it is categorically abusive,  when it hurts &/or negatively affects the relationship

    b. almost the same delineation, with the understanding that in general motivations of self and of the nameless shapeless mass are unknown specifically, but can usually be determined as a pattern or predictable movement.

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There's no boundary between the two. Just go for it

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, AesSedai said:

Maybe there are women that do that, but so many of us try and fail to contain our emotions.

Honestly, if I could not cry in front of my partner without being accused of manipulating, it probably would not last. My husband is the person in front of whom I can be myself. I don't have to hold anything in, and I spend all day polishing my reactions for others.

I do apologize if this commentary is not what you meant for your thread, my intention was just to point out that crying is not automatically manipulative, so I'm not sure how your line can be drawn in that respect.

Nothing to apologize for. There are definitely times when I just cry in front of my partner too. And I think that's when, like you say, it's just too much to hold it all in. 

It is difficult to distinguish between real and crocodile tears, yes. For instance, I had a student who basically said and proved that she cried very easily, and the trouble was she would lie a lot while crying to swing things her way.  

In a marriage, I've seen a husband entertain women in his own home (cooked expensive seafood for them) while telling his wife 'oh, it's nothing, don't be paranoid', and during that time he wasn't very tender or giving towards her. That, to me, is... a little much. 

Edited by zonsop

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20 hours ago, zonsop said:

How do you determine whether a set of actions or words constitutes emotional manipulation? Where is the line drawn between getting what you want (because you too, have rights and needs) and manipulating another person (a partner, suitor, potential partner, this sort of relationship)? 

  • At a personal level
  • In general

It seems like the term emotional manipulation should be ditched. Each case is unique and would likely have a better description of the behavior in question, a description based on an underlying intent or goal. 

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41 minutes ago, vertebrate said:

It seems like the term emotional manipulation should be ditched. Each case is unique and would likely have a better description of the behavior in question, a description based on an underlying intent or goal. 

I was trying to work out why I find the framing of "emotional manipulation" fundamentally off, and I think this really encapsulates it. 

Maybe one alternative is to look to people's explanations of their intentions for something, and see if it seems fundamentally inconsistent with their rationales and understandings of most other things. Even if that arises from something that has nothing to do with you, it usually signals something that needs addressing. Not that I haven't had people in my life who set out to be dishonest in order to make use of me in some relatively uncaring way, but even in those cases that seemed more symptomatic than causal, and better detected through understanding what drove them in other things. 

Re. partners, this is where I found US dating norms a bit difficult to navigate, and prefer the Indian ones I grew up with, in which you get to know the person as friends first, and are introduced to their family or social circle early on so you can see them in their context a bit. 

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3 hours ago, vampyroteuthis said:

I was trying to work out why I find the framing of "emotional manipulation" fundamentally off, and I think this really encapsulates it. 

Maybe one alternative is to look to people's explanations of their intentions for something, and see if it seems fundamentally inconsistent with their rationales and understandings of most other things. Even if that arises from something that has nothing to do with you, it usually signals something that needs addressing. Not that I haven't had people in my life who set out to be dishonest in order to make use of me in some relatively uncaring way, but even in those cases that seemed more symptomatic than causal, and better detected through understanding what drove them in other things. 

Re. partners, this is where I found US dating norms a bit difficult to navigate, and prefer the Indian ones I grew up with, in which you get to know the person as friends first, and are introduced to their family or social circle early on so you can see them in their context a bit. 

Yes it is hard to determine if it is conscious or subconscious and the underlying motives. Most human behaviour seems to be 'self serving'. I guess we are all guilty of manipulation to varying degrees.

The master manipulators are of course our pets.  In this case it can definitely be defined as  ''emotional'' manipulation :) 

Second on the list in my opinion is addicts. 

Third is those with personality disorders.

Recently I was going to ring my boss to say I cannot do the 6 days in a row I was rostered on for.  I felt it would trigger a mental breakdown and I could not handle it.  However he got in first; rang me to thank me for helping out and how appreciative he was.  I felt this was manipulation rather than a genuine expression of gratitude . It worked and I felt unable to pull out . It was my decision to accept this manipulation with awareness and wry amusement.  I rose to the challenge and got through; managed to defer my breakdown until it was over with.

 

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Too much of a moving target to define in concrete terms. It involves intent, and level of selfishness.

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Just buy a dog.. No drama .. They can teach you something without a word being said, like peeing up a lamppost. .lthats an amazing skill .. No games ..

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On 6/17/2017 at 7:51 AM, JetBlastJoe said:

 

Emotional manipulation is part of a power struggle. If you have to emotionally manipulate somebody you don't have a good relationship with that person. 

Good point. 

 
 
...... added to this post 2 minutes later:
 
On 6/17/2017 at 8:58 AM, AesSedai said:

It bothers me a bit when women automatically get labeled as manipulating others when they cry. Maybe there are women that do that, but so many of us try and fail to contain our emotions.

Honestly, if I could not cry in front of my partner without being accused of manipulating, it probably would not last. My husband is the person in front of whom I can be myself. I don't have to hold anything in, and I spend all day polishing my reactions for others.

I do apologize if this commentary is not what you meant for your thread, my intention was just to point out that crying is not automatically manipulative, so I'm not sure how your line can be drawn in that respect.

 

Well said. 

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When a person uses some kind of power they have over you to make you do something, particularly guilt.  i.e. Mom calls, wants you to visit, "you never come by anymore; are you just to busy for your dear old mom?" No, I'm too busy not responding to this kind of b.s. from people.  You should be visiting Mom because she's a source of joy, not out of some obligation or duty.  

Or, you did X bad thing to me X many years ago, and I'm still sad about it, so here's what I need from you now to help me feel better now.    Nope.  Sorry. Get over it or don't but don't try using it now to motivate me.  

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