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Zinzikhrome

INTJ and debates

Do debates and arguments get resolved here? Does a party admit fault or defeat? If not, then what is so different from this place to other internet sites? People argue a lot in facebook and youtube yet no one admits defeat, it's an endless yabbering. It only ends when people get too tired to argue. There is no resolution. Now, it is understandable that many people will argue to death. Opposing ideas will make a person feel threatened and attacked that's why they will always try to repel it. But shouldn't the people in this place be more open-minded? What do you think should people do to be more open-minded? Have you admitted defeat in this forum?

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Posted (edited)

Well, you must understand that there are different motivations.

Some people come here to win debates. They have a position and they are here to stick to it and stuff it down other people's throats.

Other people come here to discuss. They may already have a position, but they are here to hear different perspectives, learn new facts and so on. As the discussion continues, they may stick to their position, or the position may change, it doesn't matter to them because they didn't have their ego buried in their position. It wasn't a competitive thing.

 
31 minutes ago, Zinzikhrome said:

Have you admitted defeat in this forum?

I am hard-pressed to think of any such occasion. It is difficult to see how I can admit "defeat", since I wasn't in a fight, to begin with. I must say that in forum threads I like to point out what I see as erroneous reasoning or mistaken facts, in other people's posts. That still doesn't mean that I am in a fight. It doesn't even necessarily mean that I disagree with the person's overall conclusion - I could possibly agree with his overall conclusion, even if along the way, there were what I saw as certain errors or flaws in his reasoning/arguments.  

Edited by Major Chord

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Zinzikhrome said:

Have you admitted defeat in this forum?

I think so. When the thread is about something subjective or without definitive proof, and somebody expresses strong feelings one way or another, I normally step back and just let live. And I do say that I'm retreating. 

Also because if those feelings are ugly, bigoted and evidently fixed (edit: this isn't that common around here thankfully), I think letting those feelings stay public in their 'full glory' might work to the advantage of people who spot them and then make a 180 degrees turn and run. Correction might drive these bigots underground, which is worse I think. That being said, there is a place for law and protection when things cross a line, but I'm no authority on such matters.

Separately, sometimes I look at a long argument and see this- 

leaky-bucket.jpg

And then keep my mouth shut because of the memory of past interactions and observations of that particular member's character.

And then I worry whether someone else might be thinking that about my arguments. :embarrassed:

 
 
...... added to this post 9 minutes later:
 
13 hours ago, Major Chord said:

since I wasn't in a fight, to begin with.

All that being said, I identify with Major Chord's stance too. Guess it depends on how we define words like 'debate', 'fight', 'defeat', etc. 

Edited by zonsop

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Well, our Politics and Current Events section is closed due to "debates" getting out of hand.  Some topics are so vast and complicated that, no, nothing gets resolved.  However, those observing and not really participating are the ones really learning.  Combatants might never get swayed but spectators will.

I believe that although defeat is not often acknowledged, silence is a good indicator.  It's not always exhaustion that stops the words from flowing.  It's "I've lost. Time to play Call of Duty".   The proud INTJ would prefer the "I lost my internet connection" resigning.

I believe there is a lot of objectivity and open minded-ness in "this place".  There is also passion and conviction and most of the time, it's maturely conveyed.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Zinzikhrome said:

Do debates and arguments get resolved here? Does a party admit fault or defeat? If not, then what is so different from this place to other internet sites? People argue a lot in facebook and youtube yet no one admits defeat, it's an endless yabbering. It only ends when people get too tired to argue. There is no resolution. Now, it is understandable that many people will argue to death. Opposing ideas will make a person feel threatened and attacked that's why they will always try to repel it. But shouldn't the people in this place be more open-minded? What do you think should people do to be more open-minded? Have you admitted defeat in this forum?

Not really.  In that regard it isn't too different than other sites.  People end up wanting "evidence" and the usual tactic is to provide a link to some site.  That just leads to a lot of link slinging and talking about how everyone else's links aren't any good.

I don't know if I have completely changed my mind on anything of significance, but I have come very close on one important topic.

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Posted (edited)

Oftentimes, the more you explain to someone they're wrong, the more they actually believe they're right. 

This summer I'm around a lady studying why that is frequently the case 

Edited by Cak

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I offer and argument and usually don't check to see if there is a response, unless I'm getting into it.

The action is akin to stretching my arm or leg. There is no winner. It is just an exercise. Dull and routine.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think there can objectively be a "winner" when both people have well-thought out, logical arguments. Just a different perspective. But when my argument is logical and factual, and my opponent starts to resort to emotional appeals, spiritualism, personal attacks and logical fallacies, I know I won and exit the conversation. There is nothing more to be gained and they aren't speaking my language.

Edited by EchoFlame

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Admitting defeat unambiguously is rare. But views are spoken, perspectives exchanged, and it's possible that new information gets passed along which will change people's opinions. Learning doesn't have to be on tge spot with the full satisfaction of a victory and agreement reached. A good forumite aims to promote learning, not to get gratified in a debate.

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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, coineineagh said:

Admitting defeat unambiguously is rare. But views are spoken, perspectives exchanged, and it's possible that new information gets passed along which will change people's opinions. Learning doesn't have to be on tge spot with the full satisfaction of a victory and agreement reached. A good forumite aims to promote learning, not to get gratified in a debate.

It's not about the pleasure of "winning". It's about having a resolution or an agreement in a topic or conflict. What I hate about debates and arguments is that sometimes nothing happens at all. You have an idea but the other person have an opposing idea so you decided to have an argument. But nothing happens, you saw a conflict and wishes to fix but at the end of the day, the conflict still exists. It's all pointless.  Some become irrational and emotional and some never listen to their opponents, they just listen to themselves. I know that it's not totally the person's fault. It's the flaw of the human brain. But we live in a 'civilized' society. We don't (or at least most of the times) punch people we disagree with; rather, we use words and logic. Shouldn't we be more aware of our flaws? We stopped living in caves for a long time.

 
 
...... added to this post 6 minutes later:
 

I know I use words like 'winner', 'opponent' etc. like it's some serious duel or fight but that's not what I'm trying to say. The person you argue with is simply your opponent. It doesn't have to be all serious or heavy.

Edited by Zinzikhrome

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Zinzikhrome said:

It's about having a resolution or an agreement in a topic or conflict. What I hate about debates and arguments is that sometimes nothing happens at all

More happens under the surface. As far as a sense of closure in a topic, try to see debates as emergent states. We impose unrealistic narrative expectations that our own egos are unwilling to abide by. Humans are hilarious contradictions. We want to win and refuse to lose, so how're we gonna talk about anything meaningful? Discussion is either disingenuous or dangerous. I'll choose the former over the latter.

I try to put conciliatory, conceding language in my wording if I think it will keep the debate receptive to learning and informative exchange. Do I truly concede in my heart? Nope, I rationalize it as a sacrifice for the sake of communication. We're all pretty damn pigheaded in the moment. But after the fact, we can mull over what we heard, without our pride being openly stung.

Edited by coineineagh

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Art's great, shows us how we can all appreciate, prefer and value different things (i.e. different tastes) and for the overwhelming majority of the time, it's OK and great for keeping life interesting! 

Yes, a tangent... Um... Yeah. 

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On 5/18/2017 at 7:25 AM, Fishism said:

Combatants might never get swayed but spectators will.

Very important. I find myself less swayed than educated. One education has been about the phenomenon of transgendered people. I always knew it was real, but beyond that knew nothing of it. I still know little, but my knowledge has increased exponentially.

 

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I have been wrong on matters of objective fact here many times, and I don't mind owning up to it... even if it costs me $1,000.  I don't believe that anyone else here has tangibly demonstrated this level of intellectual integrity. (*)

The difficulty in achieving "closure' in debates arises when there is no agreement on how a "fact" is objectively established.  Since we all have personal Epistemologies, and these differ in fundamental ways, this gap is insurmountable.  

Usually, all we know for certain is that people who disagree with me on important matters are loseriffic dumbasses.

 

(*)Owns $1,000 error... and pays up.

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Of course not.  But it is objective and quantifiable.  

Come up with something having *both* of those characteristics  that is demonstrably better.

We'll wait...

:stare:

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How about 'listening to the Barney and friends theme song on a loop 20x', that is, if we're definitely heading towards punitive measures?

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On 5/18/2017 at 4:34 AM, Zinzikhrome said:

Do debates and arguments get resolved here?

Yes, when they are resolvable.

A lot of the lengthier debates are over issues that are more over interpretation and opinion than the facts. Usually, the facts get settled pretty quickly, and the debate centers around what to make of them.

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Does a party admit fault or defeat?

One way or another, yes.

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If not, then what is so different from this place to other internet sites?

There's an actual debate here. People on Facebook don't debate -- they usually just snipe each other with one liners and tag lines. If you tried to evaluate what a person's actual argument is on Facebook, I think you'd find 90% of the time there isn't one, it's just barely coherent ranting.

Speaking of, the intelligibility and writing skill of users here is far and above what I've seen on Facebook. The people here who speak English as a second language have a better command of it that half the native speakers on Facebook.

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But shouldn't the people in this place be more open-minded?

For the most part, they are. That doesn't mean people are gullible though.

You have to bring your A game. We don't often settle for less.

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What do you think should people do to be more open-minded?

Put forward ALL the evidence they find, including the evidence that might contradict their position.

It teaches you to see the whole chess board, as well as understand the strengths and weaknesses of other arguments. It demonstrates research skills, and basic integrity. It also beats a lot of people to the punch, and leaves your opponent speechless.

When you are able to understand and present the opposing argument better than your opponent, you are already doing the work an open mind requires. You also look way better than your opponent.

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Have you admitted defeat in this forum?

The honest answer:

Maybe? Probably. I don't keep close track of debates, victories, losses, or how I am perceived. Some things stick in my memory, and I know I've gotten a number of high marks from even those heavily opposed to my views, but there are likely things I would read back on and do over if I could, either due to a poor argument or new/better understanding.

Smartass answer:

I've never admitted defeat because I've never lost.

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