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poizon

The "Everyone is Equal" Lie

124 posts in this topic

Why do some people believe this bs?

Even if some people say they don't believe that everyone is equal, they usually answer like it.

Men, women, victims of crime, blacks, whites, the rich, the poor, trump supporters, red pillers, liberals, feminists, tons of people.

In some shape or form, there's some sort of belief that we're all equal or everyone from a group is equal.

 

It's obviously a lie and I'd expect the small population here to understand that truth.

 

So why do you think people buy into that crap? Is it some sort of societal thing? Psychological?

Edited by poizon

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The assertion is framed half-way. The question that is begged is 'what does equal apply to' ?

We are all equal as far a being Homo Sapiens, human animals, but from there the differences start piling up.

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^Well that's the thing, people apply being equal to so many thing but you said it yourself, after the homo sapiens descriptor, the differences pile up. Beyond the fact that we're the same species, we aren't equal at all correct?

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I think you're interpreting the meaning of this idea a bit too literally. 

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People generally (I guess) try to imply 'equal in value' as in 'everyone has a equal right to live a proper life....everyone's life has equal value' or something along those lines. Don't ask me what value means here. 

 

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It's more about distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable grounds on which to base our different treatment of different people.

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Most people (in Europe and North America) are still Christian. If all people have immortal souls and were created in God's image then other differences are mostly insignificant by comparison.

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0=0 and every equation can be reduced to zero. What a man is not equal to is dynamics. We have different driving forces thus some of us flawed differently like the equations that dont equal. Where 0 =/= x . What thebrainpolice says is that if a man is without sin or absolved he becomes the perfect equation that can always be reduce to 0. Thus we are all zeros.

Edited by Cacao

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28 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

I think you're interpreting the meaning of this idea a bit too literally. 

If we can't all agree on something so fundamental, then how can we expect to discuss things logically from here?

19 minutes ago, PillowSofa said:

People generally (I guess) try to imply 'equal in value' as in 'everyone has a equal right to live a proper life....everyone's life has equal value' or something along those lines. Don't ask me what value means here. 

 

As horrible as it sounds, not everyone's life is equal. For example, in a state of catastrophe, who's more valuable? The doctor? or the fashion designer?

21 minutes ago, SelfMadeBum said:

It's more about distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable grounds on which to base our different treatment of different people.

Agreed, however this doesn't answer the question. Are we all equal or are we not? Because if you agree that we are not equal then on what grounds are we supposed to treat people equally? On what grounds do we treat people differently?

14 minutes ago, thebrainpolice said:

Most people (in Europe and North America) are still Christian. If all people have immortal souls and were created in God's image then other differences are mostly insignificant by comparison.

I doubt that it's mainly religiously motivated but that's a good point. I don't believe that all Christians are equal besides what makes them Christians in the first place AKA the definition of a Christian.

7 minutes ago, Cacao said:

0=0 and every equation can be reduced to zero. What a man is not equal to is dynamics. We have different driving forces thus some of us flawed differently like the equations that dont equal. Where 0 =/= x . What thebrainpolice says is that if a man is without sin or absolved he becomes the perfect equation that can always be reduce to 0. Thus we are all zeros.

Yes, I've thought of an idea like this before and I haven't really thought it out too much. It seems like an interesting take but I deemed it too far fetched when I thought of it years ago. I've revisited this idea every now and then. I didn't think of it in terms of numbers like you presented but I did come to a similar idea a couple of times.

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3 minutes ago, poizon said:

Agreed, however this doesn't answer the question. Are we all equal or are we not? Because if you agree that we are not equal then on what grounds are we supposed to treat people equally? On what grounds do we treat people differently?

Depends on the people and the reason for the different treatment; i.e. there is no one rule.

When it comes to evaluating candidates for a job, there are traits that should matter and some that shouldn't. Which means those with the same traits "on paper" are all equally qualified for the position and should be treated as such.

So when it comes to who should be treated humanely, we all qualify equally for that... one would hope. :uneasy:

Edited by SelfMadeBum

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Just now, SelfMadeBum said:

Depends on the people and the reason for the different treatment; i.e. there is no one rule.

When it comes to evaluating candidates for a job, there are traits that should matter and some that shouldn't. Which means those with the same traits "on paper" are all equally qualified for the position and should be treated as such.

Agree 100%

Reality doesn't determine morality. AKA, the way something is does not determine the way something should be.

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1 hour ago, poizon said:

As horrible as it sounds, not everyone's life is equal. For example, in a state of catastrophe, who's more valuable? The doctor? or the fashion designer?.

There is a reason why I wrote not to ask me what 'value' is...because I don't know. It's quite vague..and people are mostly vague....natural language itself is quite vague and abstract concepts like value will probably forever remain roughly defined. 

Your question is trying address a specific type of value...it is asking who is more valuable for maintaining health and preserving life in a dire catastrophic scenario?...(I assume, that's what you are asking)....but with the (for maintaining health part....), the question doesn't have a straight forward answer (or an answer at all) however from the context we assume the (for maintaining health, preserving life and stuff part). So it is difficult or impossible to estimate or calculate value without some criteria, condition or context. In a different context and situation when measuring value by different criteria, a certain fashion designer may be more valuable (for example if we define value by economic status or something).

But when people talk about 'value of life'  and stuff it becomes more abstract....now it has no criteria to estimate, no context...just the word 'value'...ultimately it is probably just dependent on sentiment or something, I don't know. I don't necessarily believe everyone has equal value, I was trying to write about what the general belief might be.  

 

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When a baby is born, that value is the value everyone will always carry with them. That is the value that makes everyone equal, a birthright. But then when we grow up we get in touch with social constructs etc etc and we begin making choices, and not everyone will agree with those choices and some will start to judge others' value based on these choices. But that value is still constant and a given from birth. 

That's my view on the equality idea. But you are right of course that if someone screws you over and that person and your best friend's life would be in danger, then duh, choice is made. They aren't equals in your head then. But at the baseline, we're all humans, therefore equal in our value as a human. 

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2 hours ago, SelfMadeBum said:

It's more about distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable grounds on which to base our different treatment of different people.

Indeed. No, we're not equal, but that doesn't mean we're not all entitled to certain basic rights etc.

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2 hours ago, MissJ said:

When a baby is born, that value is the value everyone will always carry with them. That is the value that makes everyone equal, a birthright. But then when we grow up we get in touch with social constructs etc etc and we begin making choices, and not everyone will agree with those choices and some will start to judge others' value based on these choices. But that value is still constant and a given from birth. 

That's my view on the equality idea. But you are right of course that if someone screws you over and that person and your best friend's life would be in danger, then duh, choice is made. They aren't equals in your head then. But at the baseline, we're all humans, therefore equal in our value as a human. 

Science now says that there is no such thing as a clean slate, everyone is born with a set of hereditary baggage that affects how they react to certain things later in life. A quick and fun explanation of how this happens:

So, no. Everyone is not born in equality and then 'growing up get damaged by getting in touch with social constructs.' Nature herself ensures that no one is born with a clean slate and much less in equality. 

Edited by Tito

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Yes, people are not cookie cutter copies of each other. The idea of equality is the idea that they have the same rights in the same situations. 

Nobody questions the idea that people are all unique. The problem is that people obsessed by differences keep applying them to subjects that have nothing to do with the difference. 

For instance, one woman taking 5 years off to raise a kid does not justify cutting the pay of the women who did not take time off. Yet that is the explanation that is constantly given. 

Nobody is saying people aren't different. What we are saying is that the people who are obsessed with the subject are completely irrational. 

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Basically the idea goes like this.

1. You define a group by some sort of criteria.
2. Then you say that everyone in that group is to be treated equally.

That's the idea of fairness. It's not that everyone in the group is the same. It's that they are the same by the particular set of criteria you have applied, and therefore you will treat them in the same way.

Where the difficulties arise:

(a) your choice of criteria is subjective and debatable
(b) some people who are not in your group want to be in it
(c) some people who are in your group don't want to be in it
(d) some people in the group see further meaningful distinctions out to be made (ie there are sub-groups, and the sub-groups may merit different treatment). 

 

Edited by Major Chord

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57 minutes ago, Doggzilla said:

Yes, people are not cookie cutter copies of each other. The idea of equality is the idea that they have the same rights in the same situations. 

Nobody questions the idea that people are all unique. The problem is that people obsessed by equality keep applying them to subjects that have nothing to do with equity

Works like this too.

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I have more money! I have more knowledge! I have higher social status! The group that I identify with is superior!

Must be nice to be superior.

Where's my jerk-off hand gesture emoticon!?

Edited by Sneaky Pete

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Are there really people who think the word 'equal' in this context means that people have the same means, or natural talents, or ability? My understanding is that this is more an aspirational declaration of equal rights.

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20 minutes ago, toki said:

everyone dies.

is that equal enough?

Nah. There is the question of how long one lives, and that is related to the question of access to healthcare. Here the wealthy may have an advantage. And also people who happen to live in developed countries with good healthcare systems. However, genes also play an important part in longevity, and some people just have better genes than others, as far as longevity is concerned. So people are just not equal.

Interestingly, Bloomberg just reported a study on the healthiest countries in the world, based on various factors  (e.g. obesity rates, smoking rates, exercise frequency in the population) one of which is average life expectancy. Countries which topped the list include Australia, Norway, Singapore, Italy, Switzerland, Japan and Sweden.

Edited by Major Chord

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can you be be born to a wealthy family, have excellent genes for above average life expectancy, and still die before maturity?

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Sure. It is a question of odds basically. Some things improve your odds, others worsen them.

Edited by Major Chord

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9 hours ago, Nemesis said:

 

I think you're interpreting the meaning of this idea a bit too literally. 

 

Mm, am thinking along these lines too. Maybe it wasn't Poizon himself interpreting so, but someone who has frustrated him with this thinking. The phrase 'everyone is equal' can be used to genuinely empower, sneakily pull the wool over people's eyes or in some instances, stems from misguided beliefs. 

Edited by zonsop

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