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AOA

Is he a giant tool?

215 posts in this topic

Scenario:

There’s a girl who is a virgin, and she was planning on saving her virginity for “the one”. (not necessarily for marriage but ideally) Her boyfriend sweet talks her into sleeping with him. “I love you. I’ll always love you.” And then 5 months later decides he actually doesn’t love her as much as she loves him and breaks up with her. She asks for him to get back together with her, that she’ll try to make it work or change, and he refuses.

Is he a giant tool? Or is she somehow also responsible for being ‘naïve’ in the first place?

Should a 'virginity-taker' morally hold more obligation in a relationship than a 'non-virginity taker'?

 

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4 minutes ago, AOA said:

Scenario:

There’s a girl who is a virgin, and she was planning on saving her virginity for “the one”. (not necessarily for marriage but ideally) Her boyfriend sweet talks her into sleeping with him. “I love you. I’ll always love you.” And then 5 months later decides he actually doesn’t love her as much as she loves him and breaks up with her. She asks for him to get back together with her, that she’ll try to make it work or change, and he refuses.

Is he a giant tool? Or is she somehow also responsible for being ‘naïve’ in the first place?


 

Sure, he's a 'tool', but she's a silly girl.

Such a hackneyed cliche of a narrative.
 

Spoiler

 

English Folk Song

Early one morning
just as the sun was rising,
I heard a young maid sing
in the valley below.

Oh, don't deceive me,
Oh, never leave me,
How could you use
A poor maiden so?

Remember the vows that
you made to me truly,
Remember how tenderly
you nestled close to me.

Gay is the garland
fresh are the roses
I've culled from the garden
to bind over thee.

Here I now wander
alone as I wonder
Why did you leave me
to sigh and complain.

I ask of the roses
why should I be forsaken,
Why must I here in sorrow remain?

Through yonder grove by the spring that is running,
There you and I have so merrily played,
Kissing and courting and gently sporting,
Oh, my innocent heart you've betrayed.

Soon you will meet with another pretty maiden,
Some pretty maiden,
you'll court her for a while.

Thus ever ranging
turning and changing,
Always seeking for a girl that is new.

Thus sung the maiden,
her sorrows bewailing
Thus sung the maid
in the valley below

Oh, don't deceive me,
Oh, never leave me,
How could you use
A poor maiden so?

 

 

8 minutes ago, AOA said:

What does one do in this situation?  

Learn.

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14 minutes ago, AOA said:

Should a 'virginity-taker' morally hold more obligation in a relationship than a 'non-virginity taker'?

So long as he had every intention of trying to make it work long term with her no.

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21 minutes ago, ischulte said:

So long as he had every intention of trying to make it work long term with her no.

If she offered to make it work but he wouldn't even give it a chance, then he definitely doesn't have 'every intention of trying to make it work long term'.

 

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25 minutes ago, ischulte said:

So long as he had every intention of trying to make it work long term with her no.

3 minutes ago, AOA said:

If she offered to make it work but he wouldn't even give it a chance, then he definitely doesn't have 'every intention of trying to make it work long term'.

 

Feelings change. That's just the way it is...

 

He may have been genuine all along, but his feelings for her changed at some point. Or he may have not been genuine at all. Only he knows for certain.

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well, he did give it a chance for five months.  but yeah, i would understand if she feels like he's a jerk and i probably would as well, but betting virginity on the guarantee that a relationship is forever is a risky move.  how long were they together before the deed?  a year or two would be less of a risk if this was important to her; a few months together and i would think she should have been more cautious.

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45 minutes ago, AOA said:

Her boyfriend sweet talks her into sleeping with him. “I love you. I’ll always love you.”

This sure is a convenient thing to tell herself to sleep better at night.

He's no more of a tool than she is. 

Feelings change. She gave up the goods because she wanted to and now she's butthurt. (Well, let's hope not literally).

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Yes, it  was pretty shitty of him to mislead her on purpose to get sex (if that is what he did). But nobody is obligated to stay in a relationship. Please take care of your friend, @AOA, and do tell her she is still the same person and didn't lose "value" or anything like that, and that this means nothing about her hopes for future relationships. She can't get that boyfriend back but that doesn't mean she has to lose her self-respect.

 
 
...... added to this post 1 minute later:
 
6 minutes ago, INTJoe said:

This sure is a convenient thing to tell herself to sleep better at night.

He's no more of a tool than she is. 

Feelings change. She gave up the goods because she wanted to and now she's butthurt. (Well, let's hope not literally).

Wanting and having sex is no reason to sleep badly at night, having consensual sex with someone who asks you for it does not make one a tool, and she didn't give up any "goods".

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2 minutes ago, Seablue said:

 

She has no reason to sleep badly at night, and she didn't give up any "goods".

OK. Thanks for clarifying.

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18 minutes ago, AOA said:

If she offered to make it work but he wouldn't even give it a chance, then he definitely doesn't have 'every intention of trying to make it work long term'.

What matters is if he had that intention when he initially took her virginity.  If he is now confident that the relationship won't work he is under no obligation to continue giving her a chance.

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People rewrite history all the time.  A guy that sticks around for five months isn't gaming her.  She needs to let go of her victimhood.

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Virginity is the stupidest thing to offer to a relationship.  I can't think of any time where it's good to say "Well, I have zero experience in this pertaining matter."  It just stunts your ability to learn and act as an adult.

 

There is no "the one".  There's just human beings.  All are flawed.

Edited by Kisai

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10 minutes ago, Distance said:

People rewrite history all the time.  A guy that sticks around for five months isn't gaming her.  She needs to let go of her victimhood.

The 5 months is what earns him non-tool status.  Of course, it's an arbitrary post-coital "must stick around" time period, but subjectively, I give him a pass.

A professional giant tool would have given himself a PUA trophy and bailed after 5 minutes.

 

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1 hour ago, AOA said:

Is he a giant tool? Or is she somehow also responsible for being ‘naïve’ in the first place?

Both. She was already waiting a lot longer than 5 months. He should have realised that she would was only sleeping with him for something that was for a lot longer than than that. She should have realised that many people frequently say one thing and do another, when there's no serious cost to being upfront.

1 hour ago, AOA said:

Should a 'virginity-taker' morally hold more obligation in a relationship than a 'non-virginity taker'?

Of course. There's more riding on the relationship going wrong. Same as if someone smashes into a brand-new car, versus the same car after 1 careful owner. The used car is half the price of the new car. So the guy who smashes the new car has to pay double the cost of the used car.

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5 minutes ago, scorpiomover said:

Both. She was already waiting a lot longer than 5 months. He should have realised that she would was only sleeping with him for something that was for a lot longer than than that. She should have realised that many people frequently say one thing and do another, when there's no serious cost to being upfront.

Of course. There's more riding on the relationship going wrong. Same as if someone smashes into a brand-new car, versus the same car after 1 careful owner. The used car is half the price of the new car. So the guy who smashes the new car has to pay double the cost of the used car.

What drivel. She's not worth "half" of what she used to. Or any less at all. He also hasn't damaged her by having sex with her.

Women aren't a commodity and sex doesn't cause depreciation. How disgusting.

Anyway, he is not responsible for the choices she made, unless it was only by his outright deceit. She doesn't deserve special treatment by virtue of her virginity.

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41 minutes ago, doll said:

well, he did give it a chance for five months.  but yeah, i would understand if she feels like he's a jerk and i probably would as well, but betting virginity on the guarantee that a relationship is forever is a risky move.  how long were they together before the deed?  a year or two would be less of a risk if this was important to her; a few months together and i would think she should have been more cautious.

They were only together for a few months, but went to high school together and grew up together. He's in a group with some of her other best friends, and their parents are on good terms. She's a pretty careful person, she doesn't meet people at bars, and is probably more discerning than most on whom she dates/talks to. 

The first time he asked her out, she said no because she was concerned that he just wanted sex. Then he chased her for months, writing her letters, showering her with attention, buying her things, making sweet gestures. After they had sex she felt that he wasn't trying as hard as he was, and in fact she was no longer his priority. He'd go out to hang out with other friends, and then see her afterwards (but just sex). When she brought it up to him as something that bothered her, he would get mad at her and say, "I'm so sick of you saying I'm just using you for sex." (When it seemed to be the case.)

To an outsider (granted I understand I may not have an objective view), on the case of virginity alone it seems to be a bait-and-switch.

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11 minutes ago, AOA said:


The first time he asked her out, she said no because she was concerned that he just wanted sex. Then he chased her for months, writing her letters, showering her with attention, buying her things, making sweet gestures.

A sick predator.

Seriously though this is just two consenting adults having consensual sex. That's it.

Edited by INTJoe

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Darn. Maybe they could reconstruct her hymen. Then she could go on acting like untouched and unspoiled trophy.

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40 minutes ago, Seablue said:

Yes, it  was pretty shitty of him to mislead her on purpose to get sex (if that is what he did). But nobody is obligated to stay in a relationship. Please take care of your friend, @AOA, and do tell her she is still the same person and didn't lose "value" or anything like that, and that this means nothing about her hopes for future relationships. She can't get that boyfriend back but that doesn't mean she has to lose her self-respect.

 
 
...... added to this post 1 minute later:
 

Wanting and having sex is no reason to sleep badly at night, having consensual sex with someone who asks you for it does not make one a tool, and she didn't give up any "goods".

Thanks Seablue. I feel terrible because there's nothing I can do to make the situation is better. I know it was an act between two consensual adults, but virginity was an important thing to me too. I'm just putting myself in her shoes, and if that had happened to me, I would be completely and utterly devastated. 

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2 minutes ago, AOA said:

Thanks Seablue. I feel terrible because there's nothing I can do to make the situation is better. I know it was an act between two consensual adults, but virginity was an important thing to me too. I'm just putting myself in her shoes, and if that had happened to me, I would be completely and utterly devastated. 

You do realize how funny this sounds. I mean the sooner she gets rid of her insecurities she will be more likely to develope healthy relationships and happiness. Thinking too much about your virginity is pointless obstacle to happiness. I think she thinks that if she saves her vagine for the right guy he will respect her far more, but actually its likely not the case. She needs to put effort into developing a real personality and start focusinng on other things than her vagina.

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6 minutes ago, AOA said:

virginity was an important thing to me too.

Me as well*. And a lot of guys I know.

I turned down my first GF many times even though she attempted to rape me.

*Which is why I didn't give it away recklessly then blame someone else.

Edited by INTJoe

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21 minutes ago, INTJoe said:

A sick predator.

Seriously though this is just two consenting adults having consensual sex. That's it.

Someone who is much more experienced at something than another person should have a duty of care to the inexperienced one. Especially in a relationship.

I guess I see virgins as people who need to be protected. They're more clueless when it comes to sex in the real world. (because they've never taken part in it) It just is like Madden said, maybe she is a 'silly girl' who watched too many Disney princess films, but I still wouldn't want that to happen to my daughter. 

 
1 hour ago, ischulte said:

What matters is if he had that intention when he initially took her virginity.  If he is now confident that the relationship won't work he is under no obligation to continue giving her a chance.

One of the reasons why he broke up with her is because he feels she doesn't like sex that much and she makes him feel like, "all he cares about is sex".


BUT WHY WOULD YOU DATE A VIRGIN IF SEX IS SO IMPORTANT TO YOU?!?????

I get it that sex to different people, is of different importance. But if you know it's important to you, like you really think a virgin is going to somehow be a lioness in bed once you pop her cherry? If she's managed to keep it for a quarter century, do you really think she's a horny person??

It honestly baffles me. 

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Fuck. Classic.

Five months is long enough. Guys, this once again proves that you shouldn't dip your wick in crazy!

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 All women know men think with their dicks before their brains #factsonly

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19 minutes ago, SelfMadeBum said:

What drivel. She's not worth "half" of what she used to. Or any less at all. He also hasn't damaged her by having sex with her.

Women aren't a commodity and sex doesn't cause depreciation. How disgusting.

Anyway, he is not responsible for the choices she made, unless it was only by his outright deceit. She doesn't deserve special treatment by virtue of her virginity.

Logic dictates that each trait has its pros and cons. Each person is different. Everyone is better than you at some things. You are better at them than others. The trait of not having had sex before brings has its own pros and cons, like anything else. No trait, not beauty, not intelligence, not being an NT or being an INTj, makes anyone in any way, shape or form, "better" than anyone else.

The notion of anyone being "better" than another person, is simply an attempt to reduce all of humanity's qualities into a comparison in ONE dimension, as if you could put a monetary value on a person, as if you could treat humans as "commodities".

Because of that, we cannot say that one person's relationship is more or less valuable than any other person's relationship.

But, some things have more to be concerned about. The value of the contents of a lorry carrying smartphones is obviously nowhere near as important as the value of the contents of a car carrying 2 children in the back. But the lorry can much more easily smash into the car and kill those children than the car, because the lorry is much heavier and much more powerful. Therefore, we need the lorry driver to drive far more carefully than the car driver. This is reflected in the laws of the UK. In the UK, a car may drive at 70mph on a motorway. A lorry must stick to 60mph. The lorry driver must be more careful for he can cause more harm.

In the case of a virgin, once the virgin is no longer a virgin, she cannot go back to being a virgin. There are consequences to this. If you are charged with making a presentation for a new product that could save humanity from climate change, and it has never been presented before, then if you fail to wow your audience, they may dismiss the project completely and then it may be forever dismissed. First times establish precedents that have serious consequences for the future. So first times have greater power over them. As Uncle Ben said, "with great power, comes great responsibility".

It is not that the virgin is worth more than the non-virgin. It is that the consequences and effects of that irreversible change cannot be reversed, and therefore, there are more factors that need looking after in a relationship where such an irreversible change takes place.

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