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Ashley C

Should you fight for peace?

41 posts in this topic
On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 8:14 AM, NSchet said:

Every day, one INTJ realizes that they're actually a confused INTP. This is usually contingent upon the discovery of their IQ, and consequently realizing that they're much too smart to be INTJs.

Your numbers are diminishing, and the so-called INTJs are unwittingly joining the insurgence.

Beware.

Dude, that is not fighting for "peace". That is fighting for "P's".

 
 
...... added to this post 10 minutes later:
 

If you're going to fight, it should be for peace. As a 10-year veteran and someone who spent a lot of time in the Middle East and someone who has started and been involved with much smaller scale fights, I'll say this.  Fights may not start as a fight for peace, but they almost always wind up being a fight for peace.

This is part of a larger conversation about juxtaposed oxymoronic morality statements... just war, justifiable homicide, etc.

In that a conclusion or an end of a fight is peace, you fight for peace.

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3 hours ago, Nerdsmith said:

Dude, that is not fighting for "peace". That is fighting for "P's".

 
 
...... added to this post 10 minutes later:
 

If you're going to fight, it should be for peace. As a 10-year veteran and someone who spent a lot of time in the Middle East and someone who has started and been involved with much smaller scale fights, I'll say this.  Fights may not start as a fight for peace, but they almost always wind up being a fight for peace.

This is part of a larger conversation about juxtaposed oxymoronic morality statements... just war, justifiable homicide, etc.

In that a conclusion or an end of a fight is peace, you fight for peace.

I am glad you can take pride in being part of killing some hundred thousand iraqis. But hey, oil prices are kind of reasonable now, so my hat is off.

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I love this question and this thread. Exemplifies so many things that have come up in my thoughts and day to day life recently. 

Perhaps it's a bit trite that we have to discuss the definition of language repeatedly, but seems there is still some value in restating that fighting for peace is a difficult a contradiction in terms to find meaning in and accept. There are different definitions for fight and for peace. Regardless of how you define the terms, I think we should fight for peace and the fighting should be appropriate for the cause of peace. I've fought my way through traffic to get to work more times than I can count, but I was rewarded with the peace of a boss not hastling me about being on time for in equal measure. Look at the 'fight' or debate the simple act of posing the question about peace has sparked here. In one interpretation we are all exerting force or fighting for peace by participating in this discussion. One might even say that fighting for peace is the most important fight to have. Unless you define peace as the beauty of a landscape untouched by human influence, fighting for that peace would just lead to the post-Armageddon concept so popular in video entertainment today :-P.

Fundamentally, I think the contradiction in the statement fight for peace is used to raise awareness and hook someones attention. Fight for peace; save the wales. Fight for peace; ISIS has a stronghold in Syria that must be defeated. Fight for peace; Americans are infidels that refuse to allow our religions freedom, ironically.

My thoughts are that violence is not an acceptable action in any fight for peace. Speaking from the perspective that peace would mean an ending to deadly conflicts between nations. When we scale back to the demonstration and protest fight for peace leading to war; no I don't think killing in the name of a cause peace is appropriate. Neither is the use of tear gas, limiting a free press, throwing a punch, sleep deprivation, waterboarding, or coercion through confinement for that matter. 

Humans will likely never eliminate violence from society. Evolutionary speaking, attracting a mate has programmed females to be attracted to males that are perceived as dominant. Since this boils down to the simplest interaction of two breeding individuals and the survival of the species, I really think it's impossible to remove it from human society. Ending violence between nations, although unprecedentedly difficult, seems entirely within realistic possibility. 

On 3/17/2017 at 2:57 AM, zonsop said:
On 3/17/2017 at 2:19 AM, Ashley C said:

But how can we strike a balance and make sure that, whilst we fight for peace, we do not precipitate war in the end?

I have no idea- war just keeps happening, and often for the same reasons over and over again. The solutions may also depend on the specifics of each community or culture; they are probably not one-size-fits-all. Each country's political strategies and internal policies are unique probably for this reason too.

War happens for very specific reasons. Think about how you learned about the cause of world wars, the civil war, or Vietnam or something in High School. Think about the reasons a world war takes place currently between ISIS and those opposed to their conservative [radical] caliphate. Everything from ideological difference to defense of arid farmland has been cited as a reason for war. I'm not even going to start on genocide cause that's a whole other disaster.

Balance is achieved by winning hearts and minds; gathering in a civil way that does not require violent conflict to share frustration and find comfort in the support of others. Exerting influence and communicating effectively to achieve the confidence or permission to behave in a way consistent with your definition of peace without fear of retribution. 

On 3/19/2017 at 3:24 PM, Amy West said:

There are those that believe in only attending peace marches. That we should never protest, however endorse what we want to see in the world. I personally like this sentiment more, though I've never looked at any stats to say which is more effective. 

I love this hippie shit. We don't protest; we just support the good things in life. Unfortunately, this removes the effective form of persuasion from your repertoire. People get angry and fight for what they want because it's effective. Anger and indeed violence is an extremely effective way of getting what you want. That is why girls don't immediately break up with the asshole that gives your friend a bloody nose for hitting on her. Even though that same girl is more likely to get punched in the nose herself by the man who is willing to punch someone for hitting on her. It's also why devastating nuclear blasts in populated areas are commonly credited with ending conflict between the Axis and Allies. Keep in mind the following 70+ years have not seen a repeat of this horrible tragedy and sparked a diplomatic age of global awareness. 

Diplomacy is key. Picard for president!

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12 hours ago, RammingSpeed said:

I am glad you can take pride in being part of killing some hundred thousand iraqis. But hey, oil prices are kind of reasonable now, so my hat is off.

How quickly we forget. Go back to sleep, my friend.

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Yes. Wars are sometimes fought to establish peace and security. And many times its worth it. Sometimes it means to sacrifice a whole generation of people to the benefit of following generation.

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Posted (edited)

On 3/21/2017 at 8:18 AM, Nerdsmith said:

How quickly we forget. Go back to sleep, my friend.

I'm not forgetting - the lies and propaganda that took the US to Iraq, specifically.

I grew up with a father that spent active duty in Korea.  I'm old enough to remember registering for the Vietnam draft since I dropped out of college. Later I spent a hitch in the AF as a 309X0.

Yup, I remember well, the same lies and propaganda.

There are times to fight for peace, but few of those times have occurred in the last 100 years, though. Most, instead, were just imperialism and empire at work.

Edited by RBM

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4 minutes ago, RBM said:

I'm not forgetting - the lies and propaganda that took the US to Iraq, specifically.

I grew up with a father that spent active duty in Korea.  I'm old enough to remember registering for the Vietnam draft since I dropped out of college. Later I spent a hitch in the AF as a 309X0.

Yup, I remember well, the same lies and propaganda.

There are times to fight for peace, but few of those times have occurred in the last 100 years, though. Most, instead, were just imperialism and empire at work.

This I respect. Sorry for the barb, I thought you were one of many speaking to things of which they had no knowledge.

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1 hour ago, Nerdsmith said:

This I respect. Sorry for the barb, I thought you were one of many speaking to things of which they had no knowledge.

Acknowledged for the apology. One of the things I've learned along the way is that all ideologies are harmful, and that's the opposite way to go to a long, healthy life.

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Hi @RBM, there's this Henry van Dyke quote that 'There is a life that is worth living now as it was worth living in the former days, and that is the honest life, the useful life, the unselfish life, cleansed by devotion to an ideal.'

What is your take on this please? I'd like to add that I don't subscribe to the entirety of this quote or his beliefs; it's this one sentence that seems to resonate with me. It could be that I'm mixing 'having a goal and ideal' with 'ideology' though...

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On 3/17/2017 at 6:20 AM, rickster said:

What on earth are you talking about? Who's fighting for peace?

People fight because they want something. People fight because they oppose something. Shit happens. People die.

You got a problem with violence? You got a problem with insurrection? You got a problem with butchering your oppressors?

 

It's never just your oppressors. 

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, zonsop said:

Hi @RBM, there's this Henry van Dyke quote that 'There is a life that is worth living now as it was worth living in the former days, and that is the honest life, the useful life, the unselfish life, cleansed by devotion to an ideal.'

What is your take on this please? I'd like to add that I don't subscribe to the entirety of this quote or his beliefs; it's this one sentence that seems to resonate with me. It could be that I'm mixing 'having a goal and ideal' with 'ideology' though...

I'm not familiar with van Dyke, but the odds are given his lifetime, and dying in '33, his thought process is likely well entrenched in it's time. Meaning, he believed wholeheartedly in the illusion that is physical existence. To question the illusion is something of a knowledge-of-progress element, so it would be nonsense to apply any judgement to van Dyke, or to try to interpret his statement from the current time. So, I couldn't say much, as I'm in a different space.

It's more appropriate to note that you resonate with it, as it is a comment on your understanding in the 21st century. What you do from that understanding, is still an open question not knowing the details of why you resonate with it.

Edited by RBM

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The concept of fighting for peace has always been the result of a successful propaganda machine on the state's part. We are told there is a threat or that we are protectors, our way of life is at stake. Religion is often cited as a motive, as zealots always seem to want to crush infidels.

You, reader, are of the belief that 80-90% of all wars in history were motivated by religion. This should indicate how successful these propaganda machines are.

Truth be told, 100% of the wars in history were motivated by the acquisition of wealth and resources by one state over another. A land of taxpayers here, an oil field there, gold mining country over there, an important trade route over here.

They are all fought and always have been fought for the benefit of the wealthiest classes.

As long as there are states, there will be war.

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On 3/20/2017 at 3:05 AM, RammingSpeed said:

Whoever wins fought "for peace" and the other guys are the bad guys.

Morals have nothing to do with it. No one wants "peace". Everyone actually wants "peace on my terms" which actually translates to "I want to win".

 

2 hours ago, The Dan Keizer said:

Truth be told, 100% of the wars in history were motivated by the acquisition of wealth and resources by one state over another. A land of taxpayers here, an oil field there, gold mining country over there, an important trade route over here.

These are what I think.

War is inside individuals and thus inside groups. Fight for your group, or not, as you choose.

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No. Not all peace is worthwhile, and respectful and honorable conflict in the form of friendly rivalry is more fun that simply having peace. But some conflict is... less than worthwhile for some.

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Conflict is inevitable, the idea is to reduce the violent and oppressive nature of conflict into something more competitive and constructive - and this can be achieved through further progress, scientific, technological, societal.

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Posted (edited)

No. Fighting for peace is an oxymoron. Either you have lasting peace or you don't. Sadly, we are so screwed up as a species to not see that peace is the answer and the solution. Its really the way we should exist, and I believe many good thinkers would arrive at that conclusion. I had a class on war in philosophy, and the stance of pacifism was so blatantly obvious to me, that it was hard to give serious creedance to other perspectives.

Edited by KidC
Wordz holmes

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