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Autumnleaf

Do women really believe they are the same as men?

58 posts in this topic

Guys know we are obviously different but many of them nod and smile and let you walk around in such an illusion as things tend to work out for guys when women play pretend they are mannish.

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In what context are you asking? I don't know any women who "play pretend" to be mannish, but I am also unclear on what it is that you are asking. 

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men and women aren't the same, but everyone on this forum will go "omg everyone's a special snowflake, men and women are the same, everyone's a unique individual". 

then provide anecdotal evidence "I'm a woman but i hate emotions. i'm logical". wow I'm so convinced. 

complain all you want, but I believe we thoroughly are different. I don't believe I'm discriminating either. just pointing out an observation. watch everyone's gonna say "you can't put all men or all women in the same box". as if that's what anyone is doing.

when guys get in each others' faces, it's a fight. when a guy gets in a girl's face the same way; it's domestic abuse. no hands required, just the talking. but it's not pc to acknowledge this. and I believe it's a problem and a reality.

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I think he's talking about penis envy. But I know what he means.......it's like a guy who acts like a girl because he never initiates, he's too passive, is just too emotional and subjective and LOVES to gossip, complain, bitch and whine about everything (just like women; all feminine traits). You know the social construct.......men are blue, women are pink.

Based on your standard I see far more men with feminine traits it's scary. No wonder the world is a mess because men are running it. Shit.

 

Edited by Clh123

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I don't know any women who believe they are the same as men in every way. There are clear, obvious, biological differences between men and women. You'll have a tough time finding someone who disagrees that we have different genitalia and hormone profiles. From a political perspective, they simply want to have access to the same opportunities as men.

The question is not whether men and women are exactly the same, but rather, to what extent do our biological differences influence our dispositions and abilities? Put another way, to what extent is the individual being asked the question a biological determinist or a cultural constructivist when it comes to gender? Like most things, the truth probably lies between the two extremes. Are men and women fundamentally different at a biological level? Obviously. Are boys and girls socialized differently and thus develop different cultural and social habits? This also seems pretty obvious. The real question, then, is what behaviors, capacities, or attitudes are purely the result of biology, and thus genuinely attributable to one's sex rather than one's upbringing?

There is a plethora of research on this topic in everything from endocrinology to anthropology. Digging into some cross-cultural studies should reveal that the answer the to question above is "less than you think."

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I was just writing something like that :p So exactly, we just don't exactly know which differences are just biological and which are rather cultural. Bringing this to some kind of ideological fight is worse than pointless, it's counter-effective.

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"Do women really believe they are the same as men?"

Of course not. We are obviously better. 

 

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Some biological differences and some similarities.

In terms of achievements, it is a matter of history.

In terms of psychology, it is a tad harder to measure. It may make sense to compare on the basis of individuals, but use case studies as examples of precedents and solutions.

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According to the Supreme Court in 1872, women could not practice law because they were, well, women.  That was the sole reason. Just look at the language our Supreme Court (USA) uses to define women and their values as women. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.  

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/83/130/case.html

The Court went as far as to say that by not letting women practice, we do not violate the Constitution.  

*Whaaaaaaaaaaattt???*

I think one should read this to see how narrow-minded the Court was at one point, drawing distinctions between men and women and why women could not practice law because they were 'women.'

Edited by Locked Doors

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18 minutes ago, Locked Doors said:

According to the Supreme Court in 1872, women could not practice law because they were, well, women.  That was the sole reason. Just look at the language our Supreme Court (USA) uses to define women and their values as women. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.  

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/83/130/case.html

The Court went as far as to say that by not letting women practice, we do not violate the Constitution.  

*Whaaaaaaaaaaattt???*

I think one should read this to see how narrow-minded the Court was at one point, drawing distinctions between men and women and why women could not practice law because they were 'women.'

That is a bit sad. If she did have good character like it was mentioned, she would be valuable today for it. But undervalued, and likely to make her be overlooked. Which is also a bit sad.

There may be no good time for that woman.

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5 hours ago, Autumnleaf said:

Guys know we are obviously different but many of them nod and smile and let you walk around in such an illusion as things tend to work out for guys when women play pretend they are mannish.

I don't think it's anyone else's job to clue me in about my delusions, unless I pay 'em to, e.g. If I get myself a professional therapist; a really tough one, at that.

As for mannish, that reminded me of a Protestant fundie lady kept coming to my house, and I let her hang on to her delusion she was kind and gentle and going to heaven, maybe gonna work her way close enough to sit two seats away from God.

But one day I got tired of the charade; really, I couldn't take her sanctimonious bullshit any longer, so I went and got the one thing I knew would end it: My wedding photo album, very small:

Two grooms on the wedding cake, which I pointed out to her; then what we wore: He wore a suit, I wore a tuxedo. 

Her facade crumbled--and she's a damn fine actress; she blurted out, hateful sneer, "Why did you want to dress like a man?"

I said, "I didn't try dressing like a man; I always wanted to wear a tuxedo, ever since I saw two women perform at Carnegie Hall in tuxes. (She didn't ask who; it was Meg Christian and Cris Williamson.)

I think slow in some ways, take my time, so I wasn't quick enough to come back with, "Why do you like to dress like a man?"

She was wearing her usual: Man's jacket; man's polo; brown corduroy pants; work boots, no make-up.

Only thing "might" be considered feminine, but not really any more, was her hair:

She dyes it fresh before one gray root can show: Shiny blond.

I wonder if anyone will ever clue her in about her mannish clothing.

I set her straight on what affected me enough to convey:

You'll never again be in my house if I can help it.

 

LU7SSO1.jpg

Edited by ness2361
Last edit, scout's honor, and yes, I wanted to be a Campfire Girl.

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5 hours ago, Autumnleaf said:

[...] things tend to work out for guys when women play pretend they are mannish.

Shame the reverse isn't always true.

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24 minutes ago, Madden said:

Shame the reverse isn't always true.

Not even for butch lesbians.

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Just now, rickster said:

Not even for butch lesbians.

I wasn't talking about that, actually, but never mind.

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6 hours ago, Autumnleaf said:

Guys know we are obviously different but many of them nod and smile and let you walk around in such an illusion as things tend to work out for guys when women play pretend they are mannish.

Thinly veiled sexism is thinly veiled.

Mannish is a behavior. Behavior can be learned. There are plenty of feminine men and masculine women. A woman playing "manly" is the same as a man playing "manly" in that it is a learned behavior, not inherent. If you're pointing out that females have different anatomy and body composition, then yes. But I have a distinct feeling you mean more than that.

Edited by GrayGhost

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http://www.fitbrains.com/blog/women-men-brains/

http://bravetheworld.com/2016/08/09/50-real-differences-men-women/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/men-women-brains-difference-1.3473154

 
 
...... added to this post 6 minutes later:
 

^^just because I don't just wanna rely on anecdotal evidence. I believe differences are little bit of both biology and environment. by biology not just private parts, but also brain chemistry. evidently, it has an extent, because men and women are both human. doesn't mean it's not there. 

notice how when you look it up online it's not saying women are "bad" and men are "good". women are "inferior" or men are "superior". 

"women have more white matter and multitask easier", "women connect things, while men separate",

it's not sexism, it's just stating things as they are. if you guys could get out of this box of labeling things as "good" or "bad", this conversation would be a lot easier to have.

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Really? 90% of those findings are minor. You make it sound like it is impossible to find a man who is emotionally expressive and prefers to fight with words over fists. And a unicorn to find a woman who enjoys sex and takes risks.

The reality is, people can often lose whole chunks of their brain without significant detriments to their ability to function. Minor differences in chemistry really are just that. And individuals vary widely based on their womb environment and genetics.

Generalizations are generalizations.

Take MBTI. Even if a certain type seems "rare", hundreds of millions of people conform to the pattern. Thus, even if 2 billion women showed a trend that support research like that, the other 1.5 billion could have wild variations that don't fit a trend majority and thus, don't make the cut.

And yet you encounter them in everyday life.

Edited by GrayGhost

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11 minutes ago, GrayGhost said:

Really? 90% of those findings are minor. You make it sound like it is impossible to find a man who is emotionally expressive and prefers to fight with words over fists. And a unicorn to find a woman who enjoys sex and takes risks.

The reality is, people can often lose whole chunks of their brain without significant detriments to their ability to function. Minor differences in chemistry really are just that. And individuals vary widely based on their womb environment and genetics.

Generalizations are generalizations.

fack u mean minor? did you even read the links? or did you just get lazy and read my summary of "to an extent"? at least read the second link. it cites actual experiments. and it's detailed as hell.

 

18. Women use both sides of the brain to respond to emotional experiences while men use just one

A study from Stanford University found that when a female was shown an emotional image, 9 different areas of her brain lit up, while only 2 lit up in the men. (Brizendine. “The Female Brain”  127)

On average, women retain stronger memories for emotional events than men. (Hamann, Stephan. "Sex Differences in the Responses of the Human Amygdala.")

 

7. Females can verbally express their emotions better than males

The key word here is can, as in, have the ability to. This is not, as some will have you believe, a difference caused by societal gender norms: This is a legitimate brain difference.

-MRI’s were used to examine how emotion is processed in the brains of girls & boys from the ages of 7 through to 17.

-They found that in children, negative emotions were localized in the primitive area of the brain, the amygdala. This part of the brain has few direct connections to the language & reasoning centre in the cerebral cortex, which is why it's difficult for most  kids to verbally express how they feel.

-Then in adolescence, a large portion of the brain activity associated with negative emotion moves up from the amygdala to the cerebral cortex…but this change only happens in girls.

-A  study from Germany duplicated this finding, and went on to conclude that both positive and negative emotions are processed differently in males and females post puberty.

Judging by this, it's no surprise that men rarely want to "talk about it." Men are wired to avoid contact with others when they are going through a rough time & even report thinking women would want to do the same. So before you get mad at your boyfriend for his silence, remember that it's literally difficult for him to verbalize his feelings. (Brizendine. “The Female Brain”  126) (Sax, Leonard. “Why Gender Matters” 29)

studies also show that women use both sides of their brain to communicate while men use one. men use the left side moreso. this is another reason why it's actually easier for women to communicate feelings.

Edited by FeriaKaiser

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Do you honestly think 3.5 billion males don't like talking about their feelings when they are going through a hard time? Because my dad literally calls me up every time the slightest bit of trouble pops up in his life, usually on the verge of tears. My brother is the exact same way. And I've rarely seen my mother cry and she often gives the impression she is cold as stone.

I fall into the generalization in that I don't like talking about my feelings and I'm a male, but I know so many exceptions personally that I realize a difference between general trends and individuals. In that, you're more likely to pick someone at random who fits the profile, but it is hardly a rule. There are women with masculine traits and men with feminine traits. I'm sure if you scanned my dad's brain, he'd have way too much emotional stuff going on. Unless he didn't. In which case, the scan is hardly useful, is it, if it isn't predictive.

Edited by GrayGhost

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Believing that would be nonsensical in so many ways. If women wanted to 'be like men' in every way, that would mean they see men as being perfect or better than women, 'mannish' being something to aspire to, which would be undoubtedly sexist.

This is a ridiculous question attacking a straw man. No one believes there are literally no gender differences. The point is some of them are biological, and some of them really are cultural and learned. The trick is in identifying which is which. And even that is irrelevant in many instances if you simply treat people as individuals. 

Believing men and women are fundamentally different in every way is just as idiotic as believing all differences are taught by society. So anytime you want to attack your 'opposition' remember you are two sides of the exact same coin.

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18 hours ago, Autumnleaf said:

Guys know we are obviously different

We do?  That's news to me and I'm a guy.  I mean sure I don't have boobs or a vajayjay, but other than that I don't think I could name a single quality I or any other guy I know possesses that can't also be found in a woman.

@autumleaf what qualities other than pure physical attributes do you believe you have that no other woman does?  If another man posses this quality to a higher degree than you do does that make you more of a woman?

What qualities do you think women have which are superior to those of men?

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20 hours ago, FeriaKaiser said:

men and women aren't the same, but everyone on this forum will go "omg everyone's a special snowflake, men and women are the same, everyone's a unique individual". 

then provide anecdotal evidence "I'm a woman but i hate emotions. i'm logical". wow I'm so convinced. 

complain all you want, but I believe we thoroughly are different. I don't believe I'm discriminating either. just pointing out an observation. watch everyone's gonna say "you can't put all men or all women in the same box". as if that's what anyone is doing.

when guys get in each others' faces, it's a fight. when a guy gets in a girl's face the same way; it's domestic abuse. no hands required, just the talking. but it's not pc to acknowledge this. and I believe it's a problem and a reality.

Hahaha loved this response! 

 
 
...... added to this post 2 minutes later:
 

I don't believe we're the same, but obviously there's no debate that we're equal. I don't see any men popping out babies, and having tiny humans feed from them. 

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On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 8:24 PM, Clh123 said:

Based on your standard I see far more men with feminine traits it's scary. No wonder the world is a mess because men are running it. Shit.

That's just the last generation.  Since women now dominate American society, male children are being taught the new standard.

  • Greatest (1901 to 1924);
  • Silent (1925 to 1941);
  • Baby Boomer (1946 to 1964);
  • Jones (1956 to 1965);
  • X (1965 to 1985);
  • Millenial (1986-1995)
  • GirlyMan (1995-2015)

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On 2/2/2017 at 10:24 PM, FeriaKaiser said:

http://www.fitbrains.com/blog/women-men-brains/

http://bravetheworld.com/2016/08/09/50-real-differences-men-women/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/men-women-brains-difference-1.3473154

 
 
...... added to this post 6 minutes later:
 

^^just because I don't just wanna rely on anecdotal evidence. I believe differences are little bit of both biology and environment. by biology not just private parts, but also brain chemistry. evidently, it has an extent, because men and women are both human. doesn't mean it's not there. 

notice how when you look it up online it's not saying women are "bad" and men are "good". women are "inferior" or men are "superior". 

"women have more white matter and multitask easier", "women connect things, while men separate",

it's not sexism, it's just stating things as they are. if you guys could get out of this box of labeling things as "good" or "bad", this conversation would be a lot easier to have.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468

Quote

 

Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic

Significance

Sex/gender differences in the brain are of high social interest because their presence is typically assumed to prove that humans belong to two distinct categories not only in terms of their genitalia, and thus justify differential treatment of males and females. Here we show that, although there are sex/gender differences in brain and behavior, humans and human brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males. Our results demonstrate that regardless of the cause of observed sex/gender differences in brain and behavior (nature or nurture), human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes: male brain/female brain.

Abstract

Whereas a categorical difference in the genitals has always been acknowledged, the question of how far these categories extend into human biology is still not resolved. Documented sex/gender differences in the brain are often taken as support of a sexually dimorphic view of human brains (“female brain” or “male brain”). However, such a distinction would be possible only if sex/gender differences in brain features were highly dimorphic (i.e., little overlap between the forms of these features in males and females) and internally consistent (i.e., a brain has only “male” or only “female” features). Here, analysis of MRIs of more than 1,400 human brains from four datasets reveals extensive overlap between the distributions of females and males for all gray matter, white matter, and connections assessed. Moreover, analyses of internal consistency reveal that brains with features that are consistently at one end of the “maleness-femaleness” continuum are rare. Rather, most brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males. Our findings are robust across sample, age, type of MRI, and method of analysis. These findings are corroborated by a similar analysis of personality traits, attitudes, interests, and behaviors of more than 5,500 individuals, which reveals that internal consistency is extremely rare. Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.

 

Rather than providing pieces that are ripe with opinion and journalistic license, consider the findings of this more robust study (sample size of 1400 brains).

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10 minutes ago, Distance said:

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468

Rather than providing pieces that are ripe with opinion and journalistic license, consider the findings of this more robust study (sample size of 1400 brains).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350987/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3110817/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4087190/

and this link responds to the specific one you posted:
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1971.full

it's the same organization.

This conclusion cannot be drawn based on the methodology used. MRIs are “still images.” Looking at these is more akin to examining a road map and drawing conclusions about traffic patterns. Other imaging methods might have yielded different results (2). Reality is not fully revealed from quantities or distributions of quantities but from the functionality of the system.

There was in fact no need for such an elaborate study that eventually corroborates a rather obvious fact: that one cannot morphologically distinguish between a male and a female brain like one can concerning male and female genitalia. Whenever the terms “female brain” and “male brain” are used, the intention should be functional and not morphological, qualitative and not quantitative. Functionally, brains of women and men are indeed different. Not better, not worse, neither more nor less sophisticated, just different. The very brain cells differ chromosomally. The male brain is exposed to a completely different hormonal environment during intrauterine life than the female brain. The available scientific data as to the crucial effect of testosterone on the developing male brain is overwhelming.



Your link also doesn't disprove anything I posted. It just talked about a "classification". and a pretty total one at that. the finer details; the features themselves that make our brains different are still there. What I posted was the actual differences, and they were in fact quoted from academic sources and experiments. Yes, a couple of them were written and published by journalists, but they do cite their sources, and they're pretty legitimate.

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