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Kudryavka

He doesn't pick up the tab. Does he value me?

126 posts in this topic
30 minutes ago, Iota Null said:

But on a personal level, I think most guys who don't routinely pay for the privilege of dating women would be offended if someone they were dating told them that it was expected of them. I can easily see how someone would think to question it without themselves necessarily having that expectation, but I can't see an easy way to bring it up without a lot of people reasonably interpreting it that way, especially if you're asking because it's something that you feel affected by personally.

That depends on the reason that guy has for not paying, which may or may not be based in thinking the habit doesn't make sense. I don't think it would be advisable to cross your arms and say 'so why aren't you paying for me?' but I think two people can have a discussion on a cultural norm and their opinion of it and other similar norms. Also if one of the people in a relationship has a certain issue that is bothering them, I think it's preferable to bring it out in the open, rather than let themselves stew over it. It doesn't have to come across as demanding or entitled, and the person doesn't have to be right. The discussion can end in them realizing they had nothing to worry about and they were on the wrong side of the issue, but it has to be brought up in the first place. 

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2 hours ago, Monte314 said:

If the OP will check her privilege, many of her first-world problems will no longer trouble her.

 

Why exactly should my socio-economic privilege prevent me from wanting to know what my partner's behavior indicates about his feelings?  We are in the same income bracket.  Moreover, feeling worried that you might have stronger feelings for your lover than he or she does for you is part of the human condition that transcends socio-economic status.  If you were being serious I really don't understand your comment.

2 hours ago, Cacao said:

Scottish or jewish?

We are both of Italian descent.  (Scotch-Irish on my side, I don't know about him.)

1 hour ago, vertebrate said:

@Kudryavka, you shared a history of choosing men who brought various kinds of abuse and substance abuse into your life.

You chose them, you welcomed them into your life. One after another. Have you figured out the why of the pattern? That'd be the starting point of an ability to reliably choose better.

Yes.  It is because I have issues with codependency.  I am that way because my mother likely has narcissistic personality disorder.  It has been a long process of figuring this out.  Choosing better can be difficult though.  I have a history of emotional abuse and living in a hoarded home.  People who have never been through shit tend to make light of my emotions.  People who have been through shit understand and don't judge.  Of course people who have been through shit usually have issues to go along with it.  I'm not denying that I should learn to choose better - just saying it's not as easy as some people suggest.  "Normal" people can be still be cruel out of ignorance.

1 hour ago, vertebrate said:

To me, someone who near the beginning of a relationship told me they're mean... I would believe him. (I would now, at least. Previously in my life I would have made excuses for his comment.) Why don't you believe him?

Same for someone who near the beginning of a relationship told me he can be a selfish person. You responded here "(But, I reasoned, can't everyone? I know I can.)"  Does that sound like you're listening to what he told you, truly taking in what he told you? Or does that sound like you're making excuses for his comment?

I don't believe that he is mean because he has never been outright mean to me even when we were just friends.  He has always had a "spiky" personality but I don't equate that with being mean, just aloof.  I have seen him say insensitive things without thinking and then feel bad later.  I have seen him pissed off talking about abusive extended family members.  I know that he and his brother fight, but that at the end of the day he loves his family.  It's not like he tortures animals for fun (he loves kittens).

To your second question, it could go both ways IMO.  I read it as him trying to do preventative damage control because he has a history of foot-in-mouth syndrome.  Until this point he has always been very apologetic when I told him that he hurt my feelings.  I know that he is somewhat insecure about himself and worried he will screw things up with me because he told me.  He said, "I have never done this before and I know I will make mistakes with you."

You could be right that deal-breakers will turn up and I will look back and see that these were signs.  But isn't it also possible he could be insecure and trying to manage my expectations by talking himself down? 

 

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The best way to gauge natural personality is how they behave towards you while under stress. That's their go-to when they experience a loss of control. If they get mean and inconsiderate of their partner's feelings, that's what you're buying into once people relax in relationships.

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6 minutes ago, Distance said:

The best way to gauge natural personality is how they behave towards you while under stress. That's their go-to when they experience a loss of control. If they get mean and inconsiderate of their partner's feelings, that's what you're buying into once people relax in relationships.

Those are wise, wise words, @Distance. Really food for thought to me. Thanks for sharing. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Kudryavka said:

But isn't it also possible he could be insecure and trying to manage my expectations by talking himself down? 

Possibly. Just keep your eyes open. Or ask yourself why you chose an insecure person. ;D

I grew up with a mom with recurrent depressive episodes, no dad, and my sibling hoards. :hug: Hey, just think of it this way, there are so many opportunities for people like us to make our lives better now! ;)

I saved this quote below from a post here a while back. By someone who was banned--I don't know the reason they were banned. But the post seemed strong, and sometimes we need to act with strength. It spoke to me and I'll offer it to you, in case it resonates, as an all-purpose stance if ever needed.

Quote

It's never too late to call someone on their shitty treatment in the moment and tell them "I don't have friends who treat me that way" 

Even if you tolerated that treatment for years. Even if they will be shocked. Even if they will turn it around and try to make everything your fault.

This technique is 100% effective in protecting yourself from other people, iF you will apply it vigilantly and consistently.

You can set and enforce boundaries starting right now. But don't think you can sub the work out to someone else - having a convo where you hint around that you are done taking their shit is NOT what I'm talking about.

This is what I'm talking about:

Them *does unacceptable thing*

You (immediately and directly): You just did this (list the behavior). This is UNACCEPTABLE and I DO NOT have friends that treat me this way.

Then shut up and see what they say. If it's anything but them agreeing with you, you wait for them to finish and say "I do not share your viewpoint. You did this to me, and I do not have friends that treat me this way" Then get the f out of there and make sure to always stand up each and every time you are transgressed upon in the future.

Things only got this bad because YOU let them get this bad.

 

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1 hour ago, Kudryavka said:

So... even though the vagueness is annoying, I am still more satisfied with my current boyfriend than with any of the above.  [...] Thinking back, I probably phrased the question wrong and should have asked "Are you planning to..." instead of "How do you feel...".

Sounds a bit like you are settling by comparing him to your exes and then go "more satisfied than any of the above"? Like, it's not "WAUW YES", but it's "better than what you had before". I feel like focusing on matters as "I should have worded it like this" or "I should have done it like that" is trying to fit into his model to "make it work". You are you and you expressed yourself like you felt was right. The reason why you are questioning your every step is probably an illusion that you could "learn" to make as little "faults" as possible to get the desired interaction result out of him. While relationships are more supposed to be like: just be yourself, what works is compatible, what doesn't probably isn't... 

And I do consider constantly eating at your place and never putting out any signs of helping, paying or taking you out in return sort of  does feel like taking your efforts for granted. Actually yes, this whole conversation. Isn't it a fact that he is the one expecting you to constantly buy and cook him meals without cooking or buying you any meals in return? Is this where your doubt is coming from? That you actually feel like it's out of balance here/you are taken for granted?

Edited by MissJ

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6 minutes ago, Distance said:

The best way to gauge natural personality is how they behave towards you while under stress. That's their go-to when they experience a loss of control. If they get mean and inconsiderate of their partner's feelings, that's what you're buying into once people relax in relationships.

Yes, this is really helpful to keep in mind.

Probably the most stressed I have seen him is when he was driving in a snowstorm.  We were on the interstate and it was still horrible, for some reason the plows weren't doing their job.  I was really scared.  We needed to get off at an exit, and he put his turn signal on, but a semi truck barreled between us so that he couldn't get to the lane and caused us to miss the turn.  He was yelling and cursing because he was sure that the guy saw him trying to get over and he didn't try to slow down at all.  But he never yelled at me and he apologized for the outburst later.  I reassured him that it was OK though because I didn't blame him for getting so upset.

There have been a handful of other times where he has yelled at people on the road, but not at me.  I know it is his way of venting because I have never heard him say things like that to anyone's face.  But, if he ever did do that to me, I would run away.

4 minutes ago, vertebrate said:

Possibly. Just keep your eyes open. Or ask yourself why you chose an insecure person. ;D

It's a good question.  I kept saying I wouldn't.  It's so hard to find that sweet spot between "insecure" and "overconfident" though.

8 minutes ago, vertebrate said:

I grew up with a mom with recurrent depressive episodes, no dad, and my sibling hoards. :hug: Hey, just think of it this way, there are so many opportunities for people like us to make our lives better now! ;)

Thanks.  That means a lot.  And the quote is really good.  I am going to print it out and keep it somewhere safe.

5 minutes ago, MissJ said:

Sounds a bit like you are settling by comparing him to your exes and then go "more satisfied than any of the above"? Like, it's not "WAUW YES", but it's "better than what you had before". I feel like focusing on matters as "I should have worded it like this" or "I should have done it like that" is trying to fit into his model to "make it work". You are you and you expressed yourself like you felt was right. The reason why you are questioning your every step is probably an illusion that you could "learn" to make as little "faults" as possible to get the desired interaction result out of him. While relationships are more supposed to be like: just be yourself, what works is compatible, what doesn't probably isn't...

I get what you are saying... I am scared of "settling" too.  At the same time as an INFP, I can be a perfectionist.  I have the tendency to idealize and come up with an idea of the "perfect" mate in my head.  I know that if I want to get married soon to a man my age, I am not going to find any perfect candidates and there will occasionally be disagreements and tears. There are still a lot of life lessons to be learned at 26.  All I want is someone of reasonably good starting character that is willing to learn, forgive, and grow with me until we part in death. 

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5 minutes ago, Kudryavka said:

I get what you are saying... I am scared of "settling" too.  At the same time as an INFP, I can be a perfectionist.  I have the tendency to idealize and come up with an idea of the "perfect" mate in my head.  I know that if I want to get married soon to a man my age, I am not going to find any perfect candidates and there will occasionally be disagreements and tears. There are still a lot of life lessons to be learned at 26.  All I want is someone of reasonably good starting character that is willing to learn, forgive, and grow with me until we part in death.

You're still so young. Why do you want to get married soon to a man? :disappointed: Also, please notice how you are saying you want "a man" and then go on how you want to your bf to "learn and grow" aka change to become that "marriage-worthy" person. I'll quote @brainstorm here, because I found his words very true:

On 29-1-2017 at 8:22 PM, brainstorm said:

You either like someone the way they are or you should move on.

Entering into a relationship in the hope of changing the other person is a futile endeavor!

You enter into a relationship to be happy, not to overburden yourself!

To me... it seems you are latching on to a fantasy idealization of him. You describe him as "reasonably good starting character", you are already afraid of "settling", you say to yourself "I can be a perfectionist". These to me all sound like he isn't quite what you want deep down, but he might be if he LEARNS AND GROWS. You can't change people or make them learn and grow. They can only change if they really want to themselves. Usually being a relationship gives that background feeling of safety and belonging which is not a motivation to grow at all. Growth happens most in crisis. 

Why do you want to get married soon? 

 
 
...... added to this post 10 minutes later:
 
17 minutes ago, Kudryavka said:

It's so hard to find that sweet spot between "insecure" and "overconfident" though.

These are two sides of the same coin: low self-esteem from inside. I believe that levels of similar emotional maturity attract each other. So... actually, my advice would be to work on yourself, figure out why you have the urge to get married already even though you are getting all signs of dissatisfaction in a relationship, why you... ok, wait, you said you were co-dependent. I am a co-dependent as well. I know what you feel... To me relationships were coping mechanisms to not have to confront myself :( It's a form of running away from ourselves. If we run away from ourselves, we don't like ourselves much, and we will get into relationship - platonic or romantic - where we do not recognize when we are being treated badly, because we do not realize we deserve better. 

But yeah, I am giving unsolicited advice... and maybe getting off topic of the original question. To answer your original question: if he doesn't like himself, then I believe he will not be able to truly value you. 

I wish you all the best with this. Do what feels good to you. Trust yourself. Feel free to reject advice you don't want, including mine. Treat yourself well. 

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1 minute ago, MissJ said:

You're still so young. Why do you want to get married soon to a man? :disappointed: Also, please notice how you are saying you want "a man" and then go on how you want to your bf to "learn and grow" aka change to become that "marriage-worthy" person.

 

I don't understand how you got that out of what I wrote.  I meant learning and growing together, in life.  I wasn't trying to imply that I wouldn't be learning and growing either.

3 minutes ago, MissJ said:

To me... it seems you are latching on to a fantasy idealization of him. You describe him as "reasonably good starting character", you are already afraid of "settling", you say to yourself "I can be a perfectionist". These to me all sound like he isn't quite what you want deep down

Nobody is going to check off all the boxes of what an Idealist wants.  For instance, I want a partner who is passionate and romantic, but also hyper-logical and stoic.  I want someone with a skeptical mind, but who respects my religion and ideally would want to participate in it with me.  There are a lot of paradoxes in what I want, such that I don't know how realistic it is to avoid dating anyone unless they can check off every single box.

16 minutes ago, MissJ said:

Why do you want to get married soon? 

Because I want to experience committed, exclusive romantic love with another human being.  I want to share my life with someone who understands my heart, soul, and mind.  I want someone to explore the secrets of the universe with and whom I can trust with my body and physical safety.  I want someone I can bleed for and who would bleed for me.  And none of us is guaranteed tomorrow so I would like that experience sooner rather than later.  Even if I live to be 90 years old, I would still rather spend my youth with my partner than alone.  Experiences are better shared.

Lest you think I am just settling for anyone because I am lonely, a few years ago due to unfortunate circumstances I lived by myself in a strange town for a year with no friends and became such a hermit that when I returned I had trouble remembering words when it came to conversing with people IRL again.  During that time, I decided it was likely I would die alone and that I was completely OK with that.  Because, it meant I will never suffer from someone else's bullshit or abuse again.  And I am a writer, which pairs well with solitude.  When I came back to my current location and reunited with my friends, I started to have feelings for this guy and resolved not to reveal them due to a general pessimism about relationships, but he ended up asking me point blank and I refused to lie to him.  He revealed that he had been feeling the same.  It made no sense to just cut things off without trying, so we started our tentative journey. 

If he is not the one for me, who I can share all the above with, then I am fine with that.  I am not going to cling to him and make it work.  Been there, done that.  If there is nobody meant for me in this life, that is fine.  Like I said, I am a writer, so I don't have to get married to feel that my life has had any meaning.  I do want to give him a reasonable shot though, because he checks off many of my "boxes" already.  Obviously, I need to get to know him much better before I will know for sure.

 
 
...... added to this post 17 minutes later:
 
38 minutes ago, MissJ said:

These are two sides of the same coin: low self-esteem from inside. I believe that levels of similar emotional maturity attract each other. So... actually, my advice would be to work on yourself, figure out why you have the urge to get married already even though you are getting all signs of dissatisfaction in a relationship, why you... ok, wait, you said you were co-dependent. I am a co-dependent as well. I know what you feel... To me relationships were coping mechanisms to not have to confront myself :( It's a form of running away from ourselves. If we run away from ourselves, we don't like ourselves much, and we will get into relationship - platonic or romantic - where we do not recognize when we are being treated badly, because we do not realize we deserve better. 

But yeah, I am giving unsolicited advice... and maybe getting off topic of the original question. To answer your original question: if he doesn't like himself, then I believe he will not be able to truly value you. 

I wish you all the best with this. Do what feels good to you. Trust yourself. Feel free to reject advice you don't want, including mine. Treat yourself well. 

Don't worry about it, I appreciate your input even though I think our circumstances differ slightly.

For me, codependency is finding the equivalent of my mother in men - elitist perfectionists who treat me like shit.  I become an enthusiastic puppy trying to fulfill their ridiculous demands because I just want a pat on the head and for them to finally love me.  He is not like this and I do not feel the alternating waves of euphoria and humiliation with him that I do with narcissistic men.  I am much more emotionally stable around him because he isn't playing mind games with me.

"if he doesn't like himself, then I believe he will not be able to truly value you."

I have feared the same.  I suppose only time will tell.  For now, I will keep encouraging him to follow his dreams so that he can achieve things he is proud of.

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1 hour ago, Kudryavka said:

Why exactly should my socio-economic privilege prevent me from wanting to know what my partner's behavior indicates about his feelings?

@Kudryavka, Monte's answer is of the same nature as a few others you've had in the thread (the ones that sarcastically state you should congratulate this guy on being an equalitarian or what not).

Dudes come in, see a woman asking a question about why a man isn't performing in some traditional way, and so they barf their "LOL you say you want equality but then you wonder why men don't hold the door MODERN WOMEN AM I RIGHT" anti-feminist knee-jerk answer onto the thread.

Then they leave, never to realize that most women (and men) in the thread ARE, in fact, discussing how to let go of unequal gendered expectations, which isn't incompatible with acknowledging that it can feel weird to let go of those expectations since it requires to navigate non-traditional, unknown territory.

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1 hour ago, Kudryavka said:

I don't understand how you got that out of what I wrote.  I meant learning and growing together, in life.  I wasn't trying to imply that I wouldn't be learning and growing either.

Nobody is going to check off all the boxes of what an Idealist wants.  For instance, I want a partner who is passionate and romantic, but also hyper-logical and stoic.  I want someone with a skeptical mind, but who respects my religion and ideally would want to participate in it with me.  There are a lot of paradoxes in what I want, such that I don't know how realistic it is to avoid dating anyone unless they can check off every single box.

Because I want to experience committed, exclusive romantic love with another human being.  I want to share my life with someone who understands my heart, soul, and mind.  I want someone to explore the secrets of the universe with and whom I can trust with my body and physical safety.  I want someone I can bleed for and who would bleed for me.  And none of us is guaranteed tomorrow so I would like that experience sooner rather than later.  Even if I live to be 90 years old, I would still rather spend my youth with my partner than alone.  Experiences are better shared.

Lest you think I am just settling for anyone because I am lonely, a few years ago due to unfortunate circumstances I lived by myself in a strange town for a year with no friends and became such a hermit that when I returned I had trouble remembering words when it came to conversing with people IRL again.  During that time, I decided it was likely I would die alone and that I was completely OK with that.  Because, it meant I will never suffer from someone else's bullshit or abuse again.  And I am a writer, which pairs well with solitude.  When I came back to my current location and reunited with my friends, I started to have feelings for this guy and resolved not to reveal them due to a general pessimism about relationships, but he ended up asking me point blank and I refused to lie to him.  He revealed that he had been feeling the same.  It made no sense to just cut things off without trying, so we started our tentative journey. 

If he is not the one for me, who I can share all the above with, then I am fine with that.  I am not going to cling to him and make it work.  Been there, done that.  If there is nobody meant for me in this life, that is fine.  Like I said, I am a writer, so I don't have to get married to feel that my life has had any meaning.  I do want to give him a reasonable shot though, because he checks off many of my "boxes" already.  Obviously, I need to get to know him much better before I will know for sure.

 
 
...... added to this post 17 minutes later:
 

Don't worry about it, I appreciate your input even though I think our circumstances differ slightly.

For me, codependency is finding the equivalent of my mother in men - elitist perfectionists who treat me like shit.  I become an enthusiastic puppy trying to fulfill their ridiculous demands because I just want a pat on the head and for them to finally love me.  He is not like this and I do not feel the alternating waves of euphoria and humiliation with him that I do with narcissistic men.  I am much more emotionally stable around him because he isn't playing mind games with me.

"if he doesn't like himself, then I believe he will not be able to truly value you."

I have feared the same.  I suppose only time will tell.  For now, I will keep encouraging him to follow his dreams so that he can achieve things he is proud of.

Ah, ok. I do tend to project a bit ^^; Sorry if you felt uncomfortable because of that. Good. Go for it! I'd just say: don't be afraid to express yourself and be yourself :) 

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17 hours ago, Seablue said:

What's a "mo"?

*an

*M.O.

 
 
...... added to this post 18 minutes later:
 
6 hours ago, Seablue said:

That was my best guess too, but I didn't understand why it'd be abbreviated. (The lack of capital letters didn't help.)

Anyway, if that's the case, the answer (to Smylex) is simple. You'd be hard pressed to demonstrate how it's bullshit not to measure your value to others by how much they spend on you. Meanwhile it's easy to demonstrate that, not only would an expensive object not necessarily be valued more than a comparable cheap object, women (and relationships with them) aren't objects to be bought anyway and therefore their worth isn't measured (by decent people) by how much they've spent on it. Or, to put it more simply, you're not calling my "mo" bullshit, because you can't ; I'm calling your "mo" bullshit, because it is. Hope that's cleared up.

I don't expect men to spend anything on me. I've observed that men who spend little tend to, in  the long run, value me less in a multitude of ways, than those who pay. 

 

Additionally, I am a thrifty girl who expects the same of a partner, and will decline expensive dates or frivolous gifts.

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5 hours ago, Kudryavka said:

 

Why exactly should my socio-economic privilege prevent me from wanting to know what my partner's behavior indicates about his feelings?  We are in the same income bracket.  Moreover, feeling worried that you might have stronger feelings for your lover than he or she does for you is part of the human condition that transcends socio-economic status.  If you were being serious I really don't understand your comment.

We are both of Italian descent.  (Scotch-Irish on my side, I don't know about him.)

Yes.  It is because I have issues with codependency.  I am that way because my mother likely has narcissistic personality disorder.  It has been a long process of figuring this out.  Choosing better can be difficult though.  I have a history of emotional abuse and living in a hoarded home.  People who have never been through shit tend to make light of my emotions.  People who have been through shit understand and don't judge.  Of course people who have been through shit usually have issues to go along with it.  I'm not denying that I should learn to choose better - just saying it's not as easy as some people suggest.  "Normal" people can be still be cruel out of ignorance.

I don't believe that he is mean because he has never been outright mean to me even when we were just friends.  He has always had a "spiky" personality but I don't equate that with being mean, just aloof.  I have seen him say insensitive things without thinking and then feel bad later.  I have seen him pissed off talking about abusive extended family members.  I know that he and his brother fight, but that at the end of the day he loves his family.  It's not like he tortures animals for fun (he loves kittens).

To your second question, it could go both ways IMO.  I read it as him trying to do preventative damage control because he has a history of foot-in-mouth syndrome.  Until this point he has always been very apologetic when I told him that he hurt my feelings.  I know that he is somewhat insecure about himself and worried he will screw things up with me because he told me.  He said, "I have never done this before and I know I will make mistakes with you."

You could be right that deal-breakers will turn up and I will look back and see that these were signs.  But isn't it also possible he could be insecure and trying to manage my expectations by talking himself down? 

 

I'm not talking about your socio-economic privilege.  I am talking about your GENDER privilege.

Couldn't he be wondering why YOU don't pay?  Is it because you don't care about him?

You aren't thinking about this question... because your *gender* privilege makes it unthinkable.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Seablue said:

Then they leave, never to realize that most women (and men) in the thread ARE, in fact, discussing how to let go of unequal gendered expectations, which isn't incompatible with acknowledging that it can feel weird to let go of those expectations since it requires to navigate non-traditional, unknown territory.

I've been in those sorts of conflicts, and multiple other situations that involved similar conflicts navigating non-tradition, unknown territory. I've noticed that generally, either situations have presented conflicts that went on and on seemingly without end, or they seemed to resolve themselves quite quickly and naturally, almost without effort. I don't have a magic answer as to what made some situations work and others not work. But seeing how easily and almost effortlessly the situations that did work resolved themselves, it seems as if the answer was there already inside of us. Likewise, the fact that the situations that didn't work didn't seem to get any better over time, it seems as if the unresolved situations weren't a matter of learning, but a matter of parties not being willing to do what they already knew was required.

But largely, I'd say that the situations that did work, were when all parties involved were more committed to the resolution of the conflict than their own goals.

Being willing to compromise for the sake of the group, made it quite easy to resolve the conflicts. When an issue presented itself, one of the parties often had a partial solution, and the others were willing to give it a go in the goal of resolution. If one person had an issue with the proposed plans, someone else would usually suggest that a solution could be found by a compromise that would require all parties to make a small sacrifice, so that no-one had to make a large sacrifice while the rest had to make none.

So you see, to those who are already open to compromise, the solutions are either apparent, or their experiences are such that even if the solutions are not apparent now, resolutions are likely to turn up along the way quite quickly and naturally.

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2 hours ago, Monte314 said:

I'm not talking about your socio-economic privilege.  I am talking about your GENDER privilege.

Couldn't he be wondering why YOU don't pay?  Is it because you don't care about him?

You aren't thinking about this question... because your *gender* privilege makes it unthinkable.

First:  Your words were "first-world problems".  Most societies throughout history have had strong gender roles of some kind.  Gender privilege still exists in second and third world countries.  The reason I assumed you were talking about socio-economic status is not because I am somehow blinded by my gender but because of the words you chose. 

Second:  Gender roles are both a way to organize society and a shortcut for humans to know what to expect from each other.  Disregarding what society would look like without gender roles, if I were able to erase gender role expectations from my head, then I must replace my gender-informed expectations with another somewhat reliable way to gauge the shape of potential mates, or finding them becomes significantly more inefficient.  The only other good way I can think of to accomplish this is to have them to sign a contract in which I detail every single expectation of them in particular when the relationship begins and update the contract periodically to reflect changed attitudes.  In actual fact, I would not be personally opposed to this, and if this is the kind of society we want to have then consider me signed up.  But average folks are generally scared away by such businesslike transactions, and prefer the more polite method, which is to quietly assume a default based in tradition until proven wrong. 

I would really like to hear input from opponents of gender roles as to how I should be entering into relationships if I have expectations but I am not allowed to assume anything about the other person based on gender.  Is there a list of 1000 questions somewhere I can give to my partner and ask him to fill in?  Some kind of worksheet I can use to fill the massive gap I will cause by throwing out every assumption I have made of him to date?  (Something like the BDSM kink compatibility worksheet?)  I am feeling a little annoyed because I don't understand how this is practically supposed to work, but I am serious in that I welcome any resources.  As I noted before, I keep a data file on my boyfriend because he is important to me, and any new information I can receive about him is good.

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Him not paying for you on dates is fine. Expecting him to is old fashioned.

Also, that data file business is creepy. If I found out the person I was dating was compiling a dossier on me, I would be creeped out.

You are over thinking this. Drop your gender expectations and just enjoy the guy's company. If he values you, he'll show it in different ways.

And delete that file! You don't need it.

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1 hour ago, Kudryavka said:

First:  Your words were "first-world problems". 

Again Kudryavka, he was just parroting "feminist" linguo. "Check your privilege" + "first world problem". You're looking to make rational sense of what was only a taunt.

 
 
...... added to this post 7 minutes later:
 
1 hour ago, Kudryavka said:

I would really like to hear input from opponents of gender roles as to how I should be entering into relationships if I have expectations but I am not allowed to assume anything about the other person based on gender.

Just treat them as a human being and as an equal. Favor communication over silent expectations.

I promise people don't typically fall into an abyss of confusion just because they stop assuming that their partner will pay more stuff or do more chores, or whatever else, just because of their genital parts.

 
 
...... added to this post 8 minutes later:
 
7 hours ago, Smylex said:

I don't expect men to spend anything on me. I've observed that men who spend little tend to, in  the long run, value me less in a multitude of ways, than those who pay. 

 

Additionally, I am a thrifty girl who expects the same of a partner, and will decline expensive dates or frivolous gifts.

Glad that's cleared up.

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6 hours ago, Kudryavka said:

Second:  Gender roles are both a way to organize society and a shortcut for humans to know what to expect from each other.  Disregarding what society would look like without gender roles, if I were able to erase gender role expectations from my head, then I must replace my gender-informed expectations with another somewhat reliable way to gauge the shape of potential mates, or finding them becomes significantly more inefficient.  The only other good way I can think of to accomplish this is to have them to sign a contract in which I detail every single expectation of them in particular when the relationship begins and update the contract periodically to reflect changed attitudes.  In actual fact, I would not be personally opposed to this, and if this is the kind of society we want to have then consider me signed up.  But average folks are generally scared away by such businesslike transactions, and prefer the more polite method, which is to quietly assume a default based in tradition until proven wrong. 

I would really like to hear input from opponents of gender roles as to how I should be entering into relationships if I have expectations but I am not allowed to assume anything about the other person based on gender.  Is there a list of 1000 questions somewhere I can give to my partner and ask him to fill in?  Some kind of worksheet I can use to fill the massive gap I will cause by throwing out every assumption I have made of him to date?  (Something like the BDSM kink compatibility worksheet?)  I am feeling a little annoyed because I don't understand how this is practically supposed to work, but I am serious in that I welcome any resources.  As I noted before, I keep a data file on my boyfriend because he is important to me, and any new information I can receive about him is good.

What expectations do you have that assuming his gender will answer?  I mean, how would you have 1,000 questions to even ask?  Are you talking about things like, "Will he carry my groceries?", "Will he give me his jacket when I'm cold?"  Are those things that you require in a mate when you're looking?  I'm not sure what the confusion is or what you need gender roles for.

I am opposed to gender roles, as is my boyfriend (he's quite vocal about it).  He buys our friends' daughter superhero, dragon, and dinosaur toys to try to keep her from "turning into a girl".  We both work.  We both carry groceries.  Sometimes I walk out of the store carrying all the bags, sometimes he does, sometimes we both carry them.  I do most of the cooking because I'm better at it.  I do my laundry, he does his.  We both clean the house.  When we see our friends, there is no male/female division (he doesn't go "hang with the guys").  Neither of us are submissive or dominant (or we're a mixture of both).  We both have opinions and make decisions, we listen to each other, we respect the other.  We split bills evenly and both "pay" them.  We play video games together and we're passionate about craft beer.  When we get un-assembled furniture sent to the house, we both put it together.  We both wear jeans (or pants) and t-shirts ... he has no expectations for me to be "girly" or "feminine".  We like to do crafts together - from needlepoint to gluing together felt decorations.  Neither of us "like" sports, but we LOVE baseball games (and other live sporting events).  I earn more money than him (2.4x more) and generally buy most of the groceries.  Neither of us really care for children very much.  There won't be a marriage proposal in our relationship (we'll just ... get married) - we're both opposed to the tradition.

There's nothing I do "because I'm female" and nothing he does "because he's male".

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Predetermined expectations seem foolish at any rate. I don't expect anything from anyone I don't know. We can determine what to expect from people in the long run as we get to know them, and build a picture of their character. Is there any need to assume something beforehand, when we can learn over time by having open and honest communication and observing their behaviour. Assumptions and expectations without substance is a good recipe for disappointment.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Space Taxi said:

Also, that data file business is creepy. If I found out the person I was dating was compiling a dossier on me, I would be creeped out.

:embarrassed:  I have the file because inferior Te, I don't remember facts and dates well like an INTJ can.  If I write it down I'll never forget his birthday, shoe size, his food preferences, or other facts.  My ex always used to get annoyed if he told me something about himself and I couldn't remember.  All the INTJs I know in general don't like being constantly asked for information they have already told me.  I don't want to make excuses for my mental weakness, so to me, I feel like writing it down is a form of love.  Also, FWIW, he knows about the file and he was amused.  He didn't ask me to delete it.

18 minutes ago, Holli said:

What expectations do you have that assuming his gender will answer?  I mean, how would you have 1,000 questions to even ask?  Are you talking about things like, "Will he carry my groceries?", "Will he give me his jacket when I'm cold?"  Are those things that you require in a mate when you're looking?  I'm not sure what the confusion is or what you need gender roles for.

It is difficult.  Perhaps some clarification is in order.  I am sexually submissive and hope for a sexually dominant partner.  My preferences in a mate don't align 100% with traditional gender roles, otherwise I would have gone and dated Mr. ISTJ.  But, gender roles are often useful guides because there was a lot of dom/sub assumed in them.  Also, normal people tend to get wigged out when they hear "dominant" and "submissive" language so saying "Because he's the man" is still more palatable than "Because he is my alpha".  (For those wondering, I talked to my boyfriend about this very early on and he said he thinks this is the kind of relationship he wants as well.)

So, to answer your question, I think the dominant one is the assumed provider by default unless they ask the subordinate to go out and make money.  So it's entirely possible that either he could give me his jacket OR he could say "I am not going to make myself cold for you.  You need to learn a lesson from this and dress more warmly from now on."  My ideal mate would probably do both (kind but firm).  But to just ignore me shivering and not take any action at all would make me feel that he is either angry with me or simply apathetic.

I think probably, after a night of sleep, the love languages are a better metric than a worksheet or gender roles.  But I still need some kind of metric.  He rarely expresses his feelings with words.  So, when I know his love language, that will give me more direction on how to gauge his emotional investment in me.
 

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You say "sexually dominant" and "sexually submissive", but this seems to extend beyond the "sexual".

Anyway, if you're looking for a dominant/subordinate relationship with someone who knows how to take charge, then advice on how to navigate (gender) equality are probably not going to fit.

Again though I'm not sure what to suggest except to talk about what it is you both wants. He says "this is the kind of relationship he wants as well" but it doesn't seem like you went into details. Something vague like "I like people who are dominant" or "I'm sexually submissive" certainly mean very different things to different people.

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1 hour ago, Kudryavka said:

 

It is difficult.  Perhaps some clarification is in order.  I am sexually submissive and hope for a sexually dominant partner.  My preferences in a mate don't align 100% with traditional gender roles, otherwise I would have gone and dated Mr. ISTJ.  But, gender roles are often useful guides because there was a lot of dom/sub assumed in them.  Also, normal people tend to get wigged out when they hear "dominant" and "submissive" language so saying "Because he's the man" is still more palatable than "Because he is my alpha".  (For those wondering, I talked to my boyfriend about this very early on and he said he thinks this is the kind of relationship he wants as well.)

So, to answer your question, I think the dominant one is the assumed provider by default unless they ask the subordinate to go out and make money.  So it's entirely possible that either he could give me his jacket OR he could say "I am not going to make myself cold for you.  You need to learn a lesson from this and dress more warmly from now on."  My ideal mate would probably do both (kind but firm).  But to just ignore me shivering and not take any action at all would make me feel that he is either angry with me or simply apathetic.

I think probably, after a night of sleep, the love languages are a better metric than a worksheet or gender roles.  But I still need some kind of metric.  He rarely expresses his feelings with words.  So, when I know his love language, that will give me more direction on how to gauge his emotional investment in me.
 

There are people who disagree with me, but I think it's just fine if you ascribe to traditional gender roles if it makes you happy. You and your partner just need to be on the same page. 

My husband pays every time we eat out. He carries in my heavy groceries. He puts stuff together and fixes the wifi. And I love him for it. In return, I wash all the laundry, do most of the cleaning and shopping, and make him yummy treats.

I'm ok with a man wanting to take care of me. If I want to buy someone a gift, I do it, and I don't care if it makes them feel like they should have gotten me something. I like buying gifts, wrapping them up in glittery, shiny paper, and seeing a smile when I did well. I like to give gifts, but my love language is physical touch, so I'd rather have some hugs and kisses than reciprocity.

The point is, you need to know what you like. You can't really expect that he be a certain way, you can desire a partner who shares your preferences. The only way you can rectify this is by discussing it. 

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16 minutes ago, AesSedai said:

There are people who disagree with me, but I think it's just fine if you ascribe to traditional gender roles if it makes you happy. You and your partner just need to be on the same page. 

My husband pays every time we eat out. He carries in my heavy groceries. He puts stuff together and fixes the wifi. And I love him for it. In return, I wash all the laundry, do most of the cleaning and shopping, and make him yummy treats.

Well, there's a difference between "ascribing to gender roles," and doing what fits you and ending up with something that by some aspect seems traditional. Encouraging people not to follow gender roles means encouraging them to let go of this script they've been handed, and to decide what works best for them ; it doesn't mean giving them a new script (where they wouldn't allowed to cook for their male partner and/or must pay half of everything in all occasions, etc).

It's a bit more complicated than that but that's the gist of it anyway.

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On 1/30/2017 at 10:58 AM, Kudryavka said:

I guess I just want to be reassured that it's normal and healthy for a man who thinks of a woman as his equal, not to do the expected chivalrous things for her that our society conditions us to expect.  Since I know that if I told some of the girls I know this, they would say things like "That seems sad" or "You deserve better".  But they are not men and they don't understand how men think, nor are they in the position of actually paying for someone.  So I wanted to get men's perspectives on this.  :nice:

 

Well... I'm not a male but I'll weigh in here. In the course of my relationships, I have been with those that were extremely chivalrous and some that wouldn't know chivalry if it walked up and slapped 'em on the ass.

My husband is not chivalrous as a rule. He hasn't opened a car door for me in longer than I can remember but he helps me carry shit in the house when the car is loaded down. He may or may not open a restaurant/business door, depending on if he gets to it first or not. When we go out if I have the money, I generally give it to him (I do not carry a purse and the pockets on my jeans are not big enough to put more than a rosary and a ponytail holder in.) If it goes on a card, I tell him which one (personal or business account) BUT our money is our money regardless of where it came from originally and has been since day 3 of our relationship. You're not there yet and may never be most couples do not jump in the way we did. (Yes, I had some struggles as an INTJ with that, but I took a leap of faith and it paid off)

Do not base his level of affection for you on whether he pays for dinner.

Pick up his meal and see what happens. At the end of the day, if it really bothers you, and it obviously does, just ask him. "Hey, if we go to dinner at XYZ when we are out next, I'd like to pick up the check, is that going to be a problem for you". He may argue and offer to pick up the tab, let him. It is not worth the power struggle. Some men, especially those in relationships for the first time, do not see the things that little girls are taught to expect from their partners. I have raised all our girls to be independent, pay for their own shit, accept it when someone offers to pay if it doesn't make them uncomfortable, be open and honest in their relationships and to listen to what someone says, how they make them feel and to trust those instincts and more importantly not to place much importance on societal gender roles and expectations -- do what is right for them and their relationship.

If you love the guy, if he loves you, the relationship is solid otherwise then stop looking for a reason to wonder how he feels.

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To address the romance point. You'll find romance in places you would never expect, if you stop looking for it in the places you've been told to find it. Some people go into relationships like its a well planned out dance. Others like to amble along, and see where it takes them. There's value and romance in both styles.

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