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RichKimble

Why are women so defensive about mating choices?

325 posts in this topic
3 minutes ago, RichKimble said:

God people here are sensitive. I was just stating a fact from the information you provided. 

High prestige != high quality. So no, you weren't even stating a "fact". And even then, maybe you are too insensitive, and "people" here are on average levels. 

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Just now, Kprog said:

Did some chick reject you for a rich guy?

Not that I recall

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1 minute ago, Kprog said:

Did some chick reject you for a rich guy?

I doubt it...look how cute he is! The bad boy vibe with the cute little shock of hair out of place - the blue eyes, the full lips.

sin.jpg.c25f0098cc8078cd112f215b8ce0a73b

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Fine. Yes. I have observed that for a lot of women money is a factor, even if subconscious. Not for me and a lot of females though. I wouldn't have used all the beauty and power y'all claim i have in my early 20s dating men who are one paycheck from broke otherwise. I mean if you really want to hear things straight from a woman why are you here? If you think we're all being dishonest to you then go lurk some female forum or the comment sections of fashion and dating websites and partake in some voyeurism. You have no cause to doubt their sincerity there. For the most part they're not expecting to have men read what they say. 

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On 12/11/2016 at 0:41 AM, RichKimble said:

Well, I already presented what we do after we agree on the premise, we ask why women aren't admitting it and if there is shame attached to admitting that money is at least somewhat important. 


I am extremely turned off by men who try to flaunt their wealth to me. I'm not impressed in the least bit. I don't want to hear about their properties, cars, watch or what they can afford to buy me. It tells me they're insecure about something and I don't want to wait around and find out what it is.

In a generalized sense about what women like, I'm not going to speak for them. This may be why you're having a hard time with women here "admitting" what they themselves don't experience or can't relate to. I'm not even sure what female demographic you're referring to seeing as everyone I know is in a relationship with someone just as broke as they are. There is a very small niche of women I think willing to sell themselves for status and wealth (I note this extreme as I can't honestly see what other relationship dynamic where money is such a selling point).

Seeing as you've already taken the liberty to speak for the women this does apply to though, I don't see why you need any input or confirmation.

 

 

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Choosing a man for his wealth =/= choosing a man for other qualities while wealth is still a factor.

why do women make it out to seem that women who care about the finances of their partner are low key gold digging or something?

I don't find it hard to believe that not all women prioritize money above all else, however I do find it hard to believe that women don't care about money at all in a man.

those nice clothes he wears, that confidence he's got, that manner of speech, that intellect, etc. Are all things closely associated with wealth, power, and status.

it's kind of rare to find a poor man who dresses nice, speaks eloquently, is intelligent, and confident in himself. The man doesn't have to be rich per day but if you're a poor man, what time do you have for women when you're scrambling for a paycheck?

 

Can we all stop beating around the bush and at least admit that money is a factor when it comes to how attractive a man is?

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24 minutes ago, poizon said:

those nice clothes he wears, that confidence he's got, that manner of speech, that intellect, etc. Are all things closely associated with wealth, power, and status.

it's kind of rare to find a poor man who dresses nice, speaks eloquently, is intelligent, and confident in himself. The man doesn't have to be rich per day but if you're a poor man, what time do you have for women when you're scrambling for a paycheck?

All those apply to women as well.

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28 minutes ago, Seablue said:

All those apply to women as well.

Women aren't judged based on their wealth, status, or power nearly as much as men. Women are judged by their physical attractiveness. No amount of money will make up for a non-physically attractive female.

Remember the thread about female aging and how the OP felt like they were losing control over men due to their declining beauty?

 

What about the selfie thread in which a female user sported a trash bag?

Think a man could have pulled that off as effectively? No.

Edited by poizon

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You've got blinders on. Look at your own points.

"those nice clothes he wears" > nice clothes cost money for women too, as do make-up, hygiene products, etc.

"that confidence he's got, that manner of speech, that intellect, etc" > Not directly about money, but even going with the notion that "classiness" is attractive and typically requires some money, then classiness is also attractive in women.

"it's kind of rare to find a poor man who dresses nice, speaks eloquently, is intelligent, and confident in himself" > While your mental image of a poor woman is a woman who takes care of herself, is thin and fit, with flattering clothes, and with a pleasant personality? And frankly, I've seen intelligence and confidence in all social classes (the lack of them are also well distributed).

"No amount of money will make up for a non-physically attractive female" > be honest here. This man you're picturing, is he obese with an unappealing face, or is he also rather physically attractive?

Take every one of your points, apply them to a woman, and you've described a very attractive woman.

Meanwhile, some women aren't so much into intellectual conversations, fancy speeches and pricey clothes. How do sexy lumberjacks or the craze over firemen fit into your theory? Does this:

pompier.jpg

Scream money and high status? No. It's just looks, and the appeal of something "raw", unrefined, the exact opposite of this intellectual classiness you focus on.

Basically, it's bullshit to describe a sexy millionaire without admitting that the things that make him sexy are for the most part not actually about money and without acknowledging other archetypes of male sexiness.

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18 minutes ago, poizon said:

Women aren't judged based on their wealth, status, or power nearly as much as men. Women are judged by their physical attractiveness. No amount of money will make up for a non-physically attractive female.

Remember the thread about female aging and how the OP felt like they were losing control over men due to their declining beauty?

 

What about the selfie thread in which a female user sported a trash bag?

Think a man could have pulled that off as effectively? No.

uumm yes he could pull it off.  If he were attractive.  Or funny.  Or cute.

Tell me this....do you think an old or fat woman could have pulled it off?

 

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1 hour ago, poizon said:

why do women make it out to seem that women who care about the finances of their partner are low key gold digging or something?

WHO is saying this?  Where?  The only people I've seen mentioning "gold digging" is the men.  All I've said is that women care about basic levels of income/money in the same way that men would care with the women they date.  Whatever other percentage of women may care about about excessive amounts of money, but it's not all women ... or even many that I know.

1 hour ago, poizon said:

it's kind of rare to find a poor man who dresses nice, speaks eloquently, is intelligent, and confident in himself. The man doesn't have to be rich per day but if you're a poor man, what time do you have for women when you're scrambling for a paycheck?

Do you often spend time with poor people?  Because I know plenty of poor people who are intelligent and eloquent ... they come from poor families and aren't educated past high school, but are still very intelligent and have a lot of knowledge.  Poor doesn't always mean white trash hillbilly redneck.

Not all women care about men "dressing nice", either.  I prefer men who wear t-shirts and pants/shorts - $5 Walmart t-shirt is fine by me.  I'm attracted to rugged, working class men.  I'm not into men in suits or who care about their clothing.

Also, I don't think poor people necessarily work any longer than anyone else ... so why wouldn't they have time for women?

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On 12/10/2016 at 11:06 PM, Paloma said:

My answer is that women don't like being told that their perspectives are wrong because they don't fit with your statistics.

A lot of people don't like being told that they are just like everyone else, but that's sort of the whole point of statistics and psychology to try and determine what is actually true and what isn't.

 
 
...... added to this post 8 minutes later:
 
On 12/10/2016 at 10:38 PM, RichKimble said:

How can you be wrong about what you find attractive? You can lie about it, but I don't see how you could be wrong. 

That depends heavily on what you consider a lie.  If you believe something to be true about yourself then you're not really lying you're just wrong.  I genuinely believe that most women who say that they're not attracted to certain things fully believe what they are saying.  That is what we call cognitive dissonance, it's not quite the same as an outright lie.

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52 minutes ago, poizon said:

What about the selfie thread in which a female user sported a trash bag?

Think a man could have pulled that off as effectively? No.

don't be fooled, i'm a man. 

some say i am still wearing garbage even today.

---

why is everyone so worried about all of this bullshit? just live your damn lives and let people be with who they want to be with, for whatever reason.

jesus, the amount of crying and complaining, it's like people think it's the end of the world. life is too short to worry about who is defensive about what. 

oh shit, am i being defensive here?

:curtain:

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1 hour ago, Seablue said:

You've got blinders on. Look at your own points.

"those nice clothes he wears" > nice clothes cost money for women too, as do make-up, hygiene products, etc.

"that confidence he's got, that manner of speech, that intellect, etc" > Not directly about money, but even going with the notion that "classiness" is attractive and typically requires some money, then classiness is also attractive in women.

"it's kind of rare to find a poor man who dresses nice, speaks eloquently, is intelligent, and confident in himself" > While your mental image of a poor woman is a woman who takes care of herself, is thin and fit, with flattering clothes, and with a pleasant personality? And frankly, I've seen intelligence and confidence in all social classes (the lack of them are also well distributed).

"No amount of money will make up for a non-physically attractive female" > be honest here. This man you're picturing, is he obese with an unappealing face, or is he also rather physically attractive?

Take every one of your points, apply them to a woman, and you've described a very attractive woman.

Meanwhile, some women aren't so much into intellectual conversations, fancy speeches and pricey clothes. How do sexy lumberjacks or the craze over firemen fit into your theory? Does this:

 

Scream money and high status? No. It's just looks, and the appeal of something "raw", unrefined, the exact opposite of this intellectual classiness you focus on.

Basically, it's bullshit to describe a sexy millionaire without admitting that the things that make him sexy are for the most part not actually about money and without acknowledging other archetypes of male sexiness.

All great counters Seablue. The point is that money is a factor. Thanks for admitting that.

On another note, I still think attractiveness between the genders in terms of physical beauty is different though. That's another thread however.

1 hour ago, Holli said:

WHO is saying this?  Where?  The only people I've seen mentioning "gold digging" is the men.  All I've said is that women care about basic levels of income/money in the same way that men would care with the women they date.  Whatever other percentage of women may care about about excessive amounts of money, but it's not all women ... or even many that I know.

Do you often spend time with poor people?  Because I know plenty of poor people who are intelligent and eloquent ... they come from poor families and aren't educated past high school, but are still very intelligent and have a lot of knowledge.  Poor doesn't always mean white trash hillbilly redneck.

Not all women care about men "dressing nice", either.  I prefer men who wear t-shirts and pants/shorts - $5 Walmart t-shirt is fine by me.  I'm attracted to rugged, working class men.  I'm not into men in suits or who care about their clothing.

Also, I don't think poor people necessarily work any longer than anyone else ... so why wouldn't they have time for women?

No one has to say it at all. Some things are simply expressed other ways. We know that men communicate directly while women indirectly (At least a lot of the times).

I'm not trying to say there's no such thing as a poor man without these qualities. I'm simply saying that the characteristics of wealth, intelligence, confidence etc. are all closely correlated to status.

It's all about perception. Obviously people you know and have met are going to be different as we know these people on a personal level and don't apply our generalizing lens to.

+ thank you for admitting the importance of money in female mate selection. I don't know why people had an issue with this.

1 hour ago, Seriously said:

uumm yes he could pull it off.  If he were attractive.  Or funny.  Or cute.

Tell me this....do you think an old or fat woman could have pulled it off?

 

Thinking about it, perhaps a man could pull it off. So it's about physical attractiveness then. Beautiful people (Men and women) can pull off the lesser clothing look because their good genes make up for it.

In this case, no the older/fat women couldn't pull it off unless someone had a taste for such.

 
 
...... added to this post 3 minutes later:
 
37 minutes ago, toki said:

don't be fooled, i'm a man. 

some say i am still wearing garbage even today.

---

why is everyone so worried about all of this bullshit? just live your damn lives and let people be with who they want to be with, for whatever reason.

jesus, the amount of crying and complaining, it's like people think it's the end of the world. life is too short to worry about who is defensive about what. 

oh shit, am i being defensive here?

:curtain:

It's just interesting to see how people react to different generalizations. Some take it very personally while others argue it logically/objectively. I don't care about the specific individual as much unless it makes sense to. Understanding large group populations are interesting. It's all psychology, biology, and sociology.

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I don't work. The guy I'm dating doesn't work. He must lay golden egg to keep me around, amirite? 

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The goal posts seem to have been moved...no true scotsman? The initial premise was that it was the defining factor of attraction...hence the negative reactions that followed. Now it's just "oh u just gotta admit its 1 of da factors"...uhhhhh.....no one has EVER said wealth isn't a factor to at least 1 person in the world. It certainly can be a factor for some, and a large factor for others.

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3 minutes ago, Carnal said:

The goal posts seem to have been moved...no true scotsman? The initial premise was that it was the defining factor of attraction...hence the negative reactions that followed. Now it's just "oh u just gotta admit its 1 of da factors"...uhhhhh.....no one has EVER said wealth isn't a factor to at least 1 person in the world. It certainly can be a factor for some, and a large factor for others.

I don't really feel like going through 11 pages of text however, if you read the OP, it's quite clear what his opinion is.

 

2 hours ago, Maiohmy said:

I don't work. The guy I'm dating doesn't work. He must lay golden egg to keep me around, amirite? 

Obviously not, however it would be a lie to say it wouldn't impact your perception of him if he did work and made a lot more money than he does for example.

Surely you're not with him with the expectation that he will turn out to be a huge failure correct?

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9 minutes ago, poizon said:

Obviously not, however it would be a lie to say it wouldn't impact your perception of him if he did work and made a lot more money than he does for example.

Surely you're not with him with the expectation that he will turn out to be a huge failure correct?

If you can believe it or not, I have no interest in what he plans on doing with his degree. My primary focus is my education/career path. If he fails, he fails. He's not mooching off me nor I him so again, I have no interest.

Being flashy or talking about the income bracket your future career field is in makes me uneasy. It tells me they're insecure. Lots of men think money defines their worth. With more women not seeing this as a selling point, I think they've lost their minds. Must back track to original premise to understand what's happening, lol. Their worlds are falling apart because women don't like their money anymore ;-;

Edited by Maiohmy

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14 minutes ago, poizon said:

I don't really feel like going through 11 pages of text however, if you read the OP, it's quite clear what his opinion is.

 

 

Not sure what you mean...are you attempting to speak for him? Or use his opinion as your own?

Quote

. Why are you so reticent to admit that the amount of money a guy has might just be a part of why you are attracted to him? Honestly, it just tells me that you as an individual lie if you say money makes no difference in your attraction to someone.

 

The bold portion was the incorrect assumption portion. OP meant the point far more as just a partial factor. Based on your defense of him, it seemed like you were attempting to make the same argument. Which is why I asked for studies, and unfortunately no adequate ones were provided...so then we are stuck at you and the OP telling women how their preferences is...which comes across as really awkward. 

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Just now, Maiohmy said:

If you can believe it or not, I have no interest in what he plans on doing with his degree. My primary focus is my education/career path. If he fails, he fails. He's not mooching off me nor I him so again, I have no interest.

Being flashy or talking about the income bracket your future career field is in makes me uneasy. It tells they're insecure. Lots of men think money defines their worth. With more women not seeing this as a selling point, I think they've lost their minds. Must back track to original premise to understand what's happening, lol. Their worlds are falling apart because women aren't taking the bait ;-;

Well, you're simply not invested in him enough to the point where you even care about his future.

Exactly. Like many women here have already stated, flaunting your wealth in an obvious fashion doesn't win over the ladies.

I'm speaking of doing this in a more covert manner. Women speak of liking qualities such as confidence, intellect, kindness etc.

These are all things that stem from security in our lives. It's easier to feel confident, be kind, and expand our minds when we are calm, secure etc.

Where does this security come from most of the time? Finances, money, status, power etc.

The whole argument is saying that when a woman states that money is not a factor to her attraction to a man, it's kinda bs.

Money is a factor. Albeit not the only, or the primary one, but it is one and much more than people are willing to admit.

2 minutes ago, Carnal said:

Not sure what you mean...are you attempting to speak for him? Or use his opinion as your own?

The bold portion was the incorrect assumption portion. OP meant the point far more as just a partial factor. Based on your defense of him, it seemed like you were attempting to make the same argument. Which is why I asked for studies, and unfortunately no adequate ones were provided...so then we are stuck at you and the OP telling women how their preferences is...which comes across as really awkward. 

I think me and him differ although share a similar belief that money is a factor in female attraction. I'll let the OP speak from himself but after reading the first post of the thread, I think it's quite clear what the position is.

I wouldn't say money is the primary or only factor no. I would say it is one and anyone who says that it isn't just doesn't understand how important money is to people. I think people are lying to themselves if they truly think that money doesn't matter to them.

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1 minute ago, poizon said:

 

I think me and him differ although share a similar belief that money is a factor in female attraction. I'll let the OP speak from himself but after reading the first post of the thread, I think it's quite clear what the position is.

I wouldn't say money is the primary or only factor no. I would say it is one and anyone who says that it isn't just doesn't understand how important money is to people. I think people are lying to themselves if they truly think that money doesn't matter to them.

Nobody has said money doesn't matter...that's you making a strawman. People said wealth in a PARTNER isn't that important to them...Wealth is an excess in money, and you can make enough money to live and not be wealthy.  

So if your argument is that because women won't date homeless guys (who theoretically have very low money), it's not a really good argument because that's an extreme case....when the majority of people in America are "middle class" which is NOT considered wealthy. 

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9 minutes ago, poizon said:

The whole argument is saying that when a woman states that money is not a factor to her attraction to a man, it's kinda bs.

Money is a factor. Albeit not the only, or the primary one, but it is one and much more than people are willing to admit.

Then I really don't know what the point of this thread was as no one can speak for the women this applies too. You really can't believe all the women who responded in opposition to the thread's claim simply just want to give you guys the run-around. If money was a big deal, they'd say so. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't like tall men. I won't deny that and certainly don't care who'd shame me for it. I think the nuance of it all completely goes over your and OP'S head.

I'll start a thread and accuse all men of only liking young attractive women. All thin, with nice perky bodies, beautiful hair, cute button noses, wide eyes, perfectly groomed eyebrows, flawless contour, etc. If any of them say there are other factors, I'll call them liars too, right?

Edited by Maiohmy

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1 minute ago, Maiohmy said:

Then I really don't know what the point of this thread was as no one can speak for the women this applies too. You really can't believe all the women who responded in opposition to the thread's claim simply just want to give you guys the run-around. If money was a big deal, they'd say so. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't like tall men. I won't deny that and certainly don't care who'd shame me for it. I think the nuance of it all completely goes over your and OP'S head.

I'll start a thread and accuse all men of only liking young attractive women. All thin, with nice perky bodies, beautiful hair, cute button noses, wide eyew, perfectly groomed eyebrows, flawless contour, etc. If any of them say there are other factors, I'll call them liars too, right?

I don't think any of the women here are lying, I simply think that money is more important to women then they make it out to be. It is quite difficult considering this is an INTJ forum and doesn't represent the majority of the population but I was hoping to see an objective discussion about it, not a personal one.

That's pretty specific though haha. I'm sure there'd be plenty of men that say they prefer older women for reasons XYZ but at least they'd provide logical reasoning for it rather than giving their personal anecdote as to "I married my wife for her personality, not her looks blah blah" but in a man's case to make things equal, I'd assume he's lying to himself if he said that looks weren't a factor in his choice.

7 minutes ago, Carnal said:

Nobody has said money doesn't matter...that's you making a strawman. People said wealth in a PARTNER isn't that important to them...Wealth is an excess in money, and you can make enough money to live and not be wealthy.  

So if your argument is that because women won't date homeless guys (who theoretically have very low money), it's not a really good argument because that's an extreme case....when the majority of people in America are "middle class" which is NOT considered wealthy. 

You're right I mean't in a partner, not just money in general.

Are there not classes of people even within the middle class though?

Do people not marry up or marry down? I think it's delusional to think that money is not a factor in a potential partner. It sounds nice because it makes you sound like someone who isn't materialistic, but I find it extremely hard to believe that a man's money does not effect a woman's attraction to him at all.

A woman could fall in love with a poor man and that would be fine. They could live happily together whatever, but to say that his poorness/richness wasn't a factor /didn't have an effect in the relationship/attraction is absurd.

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