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Cockney Red

Row over BBC transgender programme aimed at children

236 posts in this topic

Do you seriously not understand that "media campaigns" are not "mind control"?

 

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1 hour ago, Amore said:

 mind control and herd mentality

You've reeeeeeaally got to learn how to look in the mirror, bub. Unless you're like 50+ and then you're some combination of an antique, irrelevant, and dying off. In which case I'll chalk it up to old dogs being set in their ways, or something like that

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The idea of indoctrination is irrelevant. Trans is a physiological condition, and such a thing can't be indoctrinated.

I would have been better off if i had been given more information about gay folk. The only information available at the time was negative, as if homosexuality was a disease. Americans, in fact, did believe it was a disease, and some still do.

The most aggressive and violent homophobes, paradoxically, derive their position from religious scripture.

People have asked me, 'How old were you when you found out you were gay?' It wasn't a discovery, it was always there, and i imagine the experience for trans folk is the same.

What i did discover, tho, was the hate. That was the big surprise, that i would be hated for who i am.

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I've seen a number of transsexuals and families who have - after much thought and consultation and tears and discord - finally seen the light and issues as they really are and begun transition. Many, when asked "What surprised you most about this process", have replied "it's not getting papers changed, not dealing with extended family members who can't process the concept, not the trauma of getting the school to deal properly with it" - but - with a very surprised look, report "Oh, no - the most surprising and unexpected part of it is the number of people coming out of the woodwork who don't know us from Adam seeking us out to make sure we understand the depth of their hatred for us".

Like on this board. People who know zip about the issues - and who will not at all be inclined to remedy that abysmal ignorance - and who have no direct interest in the issue overall, who know nothing about the families, feel obliged/entitled to step right up and loudly announce their 'opinions' in such a way that will affect the very lives of people they do not know - but hate really deeply. That - to me - is the hardest facet of the transsexual issue to comprehend.

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12 hours ago, JTG said:

You've reeeeeeaally got to learn how to look in the mirror, bub. Unless you're like 50+ and then you're some combination of an antique, irrelevant, and dying off. In which case I'll chalk it up to old dogs being set in their ways, or something like that

That book and others like it have instructed people to respond with logical fallacies just like that. 

Forget facts - you'll never win because reality is against you - your own biology is testament against your illogical claims - so just engage in ad hominem attacks - that way, people who are similarly illogical and think along with others, will join suit.

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I think I need to get this book. And here I was, wasting time arguing with homophobes, when all along I could just have mind-controlled them into tolerance and possibly buttsex :sneaky:

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10 minutes ago, Seablue said:

I think I need to get this book. And here I was, wasting time arguing with homophobes, when all along I could just have mind-controlled them into tolerance and possibly buttsex :sneaky:

Yes, it seems reading through countless scientific papers, posting and discussing them was a completely unnecessary waste of time. Do you think the book is going to tell me how I can mind-control myself out of having dysphoria? If so, it might be the magic silver bullet science was unable to find for decades. :awesome: 

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It's a bit expensive though. Maybe Amore can send us her copy. She wouldn't want to leave poor souls unaware of the conspiracy destroying their lives :/

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6 hours ago, gogogirl said:

I've seen a number of transsexuals and families who have - after much thought and consultation and tears and discord - finally seen the light and issues as they really are and begun transition. Many, when asked "What surprised you most about this process", have replied "it's not getting papers changed, not dealing with extended family members who can't process the concept, not the trauma of getting the school to deal properly with it" - but - with a very surprised look, report "Oh, no - the most surprising and unexpected part of it is the number of people coming out of the woodwork who don't know us from Adam seeking us out to make sure we understand the depth of their hatred for us".

Like on this board. People who know zip about the issues - and who will not at all be inclined to remedy that abysmal ignorance - and who have no direct interest in the issue overall, who know nothing about the families, feel obliged/entitled to step right up and loudly announce their 'opinions' in such a way that will affect the very lives of people they do not know - but hate really deeply. That - to me - is the hardest facet of the transsexual issue to comprehend.

*nods.* I can deal with people not liking me. What bothers me is when they presume they understand me better than *I* do. I've been living with transgenderism for 40 years, whereas you (general "you") have probably been thinking about it for, what - an hour? and you're going to lecture me on the subject? Pfft. If you hate, then either have the guts to say you hate or STFU.  Don't try to hide behind concern for my welfare, or the welfare of trans kids.  And if you're entitled to tell me how to live my life, then I should be entitled to the same. So I'm going to tell you whom to marry and when, m'kay? Wait... Is that none of my business? Ah yes - see how this works?

Edited by translate

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For me, the question is not if children should be aware of transsexualism, but to what extent they need to know the details and how much it should be emphasized. The answer seems to be that the child's age and maturation level would dictate appropriateness.

I am sure most of us can agree on this, right? I mean, do we all agree a 2-year-old doesn't need to be watching documentaries about sex changes, but a 30-year-old can? So it becomes an issue of age and maturity.

It's obvious to me that it's important kids don't develop prejudice or fear about transgender people. But to go into details and possibly have their immature, concrete-thinking brains worry about this too early in life...I don't know and I'm so glad I'm not a parent who has to make this decision.

On the other hand, I know a young teen who has identified himself as gay, and older adults around him are saying he couldn't possibly know this so early in life and is just getting it from the media. I suspect they concluded this because the only gay people they personally know didn't "come out" until mid-adulthood...which was probably due to taboos and not actual self knowledge.

But 6 years old does seem awfully young.

 
 
...... added to this post 11 minutes later:
 
On 10/31/2016 at 3:57 PM, scorpiomover said:

If I was a lawyer or a doctor, I would not touch any cases to do with that drug with a bargepole. If the drug is approved and the kid later on changes his/her mind, then he/she will sue anyone involved for delaying his sexual development and screwing up his relationships, his feelings and his life. If the drug is disapproved and the kid sticks with his/her plan, then he/she will sue anyone involved in not giving him the drug for making it more difficult for him to change sex and for screwing up his relationships, his feelings and his life.

By way of comparison, I wanted to be sterilized at age 14.  I did not change my mind, ever, and having a full hysterectomy at that age would have spared me many years of pain and suffering with female issues, some of which were life threatening. But my doctor insisted she couldn't do it that young because "some people change their minds". I was given the very same excuse the other times I brought this up to other doctors in my 20s and 30s--well after the age of consent!

Edited by troi

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I didn't read the whole thread. But I mean. Being a cisgendered straight female, even I don't see how that would confuse anyone.

kids are aware of sexuality and gender. They really are. And being a tomboy I was all too aware of it. My mother used to always berate me for not conforming to my gender role. My cousin made fun of me for being a girl. My classmates thought I acted like a guy. I never thought of myself as a guy and admittedly after I learned about transgenderism I briefly entertained the idea but the idea is absurd. I just don't feel like a guy. I was called a tomboy because of society's prejudice of what a girl could be.

But I mean, of all of the cis kids who could possibly have been confused by this, I was probably on top of that pile and I just wasn't. And when I learned about homosexuality and bisexuality I acknowledged that some of my past feelings towards girls were probably sexual/romantic in nature (and similar to my overwhelmingly more frequent crushes on guys) and that's it. I never even flirted with the idea that I might be lesbian or even all that bisexual. I'm just not. And I learned about homosexuality when I was like 8 and not because anyone tried to teach me. And I honestly didn't know what was so wrong with it. When I was 10 a Christian girl and I got into an argument about it. SHE was clearly deliberately taught about homosexuality and thought it was wrong. Somehow people who object to teaching about homosexuality never make as much fuss about teaching it in the other direction.

As a parent, given that there's a low chance that my child will end up LGBTQ (because only a small population is) I probably wouldn't make my kid watch this too early if I didn't think my kid might be one because there are many other things to teach your child as well and it just wouldn't be a huge priority (unless I start seeing anti LGBTQ sentiments from my kid) But yeah if they ARE then these videos are excellent resources to normalize homosexual/trans feelings. There I said it. Normalizing is not trying to show it's common when it's not. It's to show that other people are like you and you're okay. 

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9 hours ago, troi said:

By way of comparison, I wanted to be sterilized at age 14.  I did not change my mind, ever, and having a full hysterectomy at that age would have spared me many years of pain and suffering with female issues, some of which were life threatening. But my doctor insisted she couldn't do it that young because "some people change their minds". I was given the very same excuse the other times I brought this up to other doctors in my 20s and 30s--well after the age of consent!

It's infuriating. But doctors' careers are on the line, all because some unscrupulous people wanted to make a million by first asking doctors for a procedure and then suing them for the same thing they asked for.

There are waivers of consent that will remove any moral or legal liability that you can sign. Then doctors can go ahead.

But if in your country, those waivers have been overturned in a court of law, then even that will not be enough.

If you want things to be different, then you have to get people to stop suing doctors for the decisions they made.

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In my country the discussion of transgenders in society is way way behind this. Just an attempt to have a federal distributed material regarding homo/bissexuals sent the parents into a hysterical fit. 

I think it's important that BBC is willing to discuss it. Knowing more about the LGBTQ people during school years is important to reduce the prejudice and bullying that they suffer, perhaps the video wasn't that accurate, perhaps kids should be a little older than 6, but at least there's willingness to discuss gender in school. This willingness will produce better approaches on how to tackle the subject eventually.

I have major reservations about using puberty blockers on kids and then administrate them the desired hormones, it would be an irreversible process. While puberty blockers effects are known in the treatment of early onset of puberty, we don't know how they would affect the kid that stunned the process altogether. Hormones have complex interactions in our body, they affect not only secondary sexual characteristics, but bone density and even the brain, some studies suggest. My problem is to medicate a normal physiologic phase, that is puberty, with impacts unknown in such a early age.

I don't know if anyone brought this up, but not all people that suffers from dysphoria want to transition using  hormones. There's also people that start on hormones and then stop and regret it. I've read about it, and I have watched some "transitioning" channels on youtube. There's still much I don't know about the subject, but I think the decision involving hormones should be taken into adulthood where the sense of self/identity is mostly formed. Plus, it gives more time to mature the decision. A kid young as 11 could, potentially, grow comfortable in her/his body without the treatment, just as some people that used hormones decide to stop it doing it. 

 

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19 hours ago, Amore said:

That book and others like it have instructed people to respond with logical fallacies just like that. 

Forget facts - you'll never win because reality is against you - your own biology is testament against your illogical claims - so just engage in ad hominem attacks - that way, people who are similarly illogical and think along with others, will join suit.

The impression I'm getting from your posts is that all that book taught you was to be so paranoid of mind control that it gives you an excuse to reject reality if you don't like it. Because things that make you uncomfortable must be nefarious conspiracies.

I'll admit that my interest in the science of it is limited a) because I'm happy with my biological sex and b) because when people I trust tell me they feel a certain way, I believe them.

So there's no need for me to read the scientific info on it because I'm not opposed to the concept. You, on the other hand, are ignoring arguments informed by actual science in favor of mind control conspiracies and my ad hominems. Just want you to be aware your head is in the sand, if you didn't know already

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8 hours ago, Liegn said:

I have major reservations about using puberty blockers on kids and then administrate them the desired hormones, it would be an irreversible process. While puberty blockers effects are known in the treatment of early onset of puberty, we don't know how they would affect the kid that stunned the process altogether. Hormones have complex interactions in our body, they affect not only secondary sexual characteristics, but bone density and even the brain, some studies suggest. My problem is to medicate a normal physiologic phase, that is puberty, with impacts unknown in such a early age.

I don't know if anyone brought this up, but not all people that suffers from dysphoria want to transition using  hormones. There's also people that start on hormones and then stop and regret it. I've read about it, and I have watched some "transitioning" channels on youtube. There's still much I don't know about the subject, but I think the decision involving hormones should be taken into adulthood where the sense of self/identity is mostly formed. Plus, it gives more time to mature the decision. A kid young as 11 could, potentially, grow comfortable in her/his body without the treatment, just as some people that used hormones decide to stop it doing it. 

 

Reasonable approach - I hope more people consider.

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23 hours ago, troi said:

By way of comparison, I wanted to be sterilized at age 14.  I did not change my mind, ever, and having a full hysterectomy at that age would have spared me many years of pain and suffering with female issues, some of which were life threatening. But my doctor insisted she couldn't do it that young because "some people change their minds". I was given the very same excuse the other times I brought this up to other doctors in my 20s and 30s--well after the age of consent!

This is why I think puberty blockers are a great thing. You could take them until you were old enough to consent to surgery. And if you changed your mind - simply stop taking the drugs and let nature take its course.

 
 
...... added to this post 1 minute later:
 
14 hours ago, Liegn said:

I don't know if anyone brought this up, but not all people that suffers from dysphoria want to transition using  hormones. There's also people that start on hormones and then stop and regret it. I've read about it, and I have watched some "transitioning" channels on youtube. There's still much I don't know about the subject, but I think the decision involving hormones should be taken into adulthood where the sense of self/identity is mostly formed. Plus, it gives more time to mature the decision. A kid young as 11 could, potentially, grow comfortable in her/his body without the treatment, just as some people that used hormones decide to stop it doing it. 
 

I don't agree with giving kids hormones. But fyi, you can stop if you don't go too far.

Edited by translate

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@Amore You said you cannot change DNA. Sure. However, there's a thing called gene expression. Not all of your genes are expressed, and the effects of some might be covered by the effect of others. Furthermore, you're ignoring a very fundemental part of life development, which is the surrounding enviroment of an organism. It can alter gene expression and it can stop certain genes from getting activated. It can alter development even when those genes are still active. Let me give you an example. There's an inherited genetic disorder called PKU, where the person cannot metabolise the amino acid phenylalanine, which leads to intellectual disability, among other things. The cause is the built up of phenylalanine in the body to harmful levels. The most preferred solution is a diet with low levels of phenylalanine, starting as soon as possible, and if it's successful the person can have a normal, healthy life.

Did their DNA change? No. But their phenotype did not  follow the DNA, because of environmental effects. See, here's one example where DNA does not matter at all in the way a human develops. And that can happen with almost everything (I do not want to be too absolute and claim it's 'everything'). 

A person with a XX genotype might not have a XX phenotype. The womb is the first place where the environment affects gene expression and development. Hell, identical twins have different fingertips because of that, regardless of having the same genes. Why is it so difficult to accept that the same can happen with brain development? If there are higher than normal testosterone levels in the womb, that will affect brain development. Sometimes the effect it has on general development is so extensive, that a XX fetus' phenotype ends up being male instead of female. Why does sex/gender development have to be so black and white in your perception? The testosterone can very well mostly affect the brain or mostly the genitals, resulting to humans who's brain and genital sex don't align. 

You talk about 'facts' and use biological arguments, when in reality that only makes your ignorance clearer.

That's because DNA can be completely irrelevant when it comes to sex. All fetuses start as female, whether they're XY or XX. What makes the difference is the hormones, and those can be the product of both the environment and the fetus' genes. It can also be the product of only or mostly  the environment, hence why your claim that you cannot change DNA is ridiculous. Sometimes, it simply does not matter whether you can or not.

And yes, the XX/XY argument is basic biology. Which is exactly  what makes it so ridiculous. Imagine if I used high-school physics in arguments about the physical properties of the world. Electrons, in my world view, would still be particles rotating around the nucleus. 

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Hi Nebelung,

First off, I really appreciate you discussing facts rather than attacking me personally for stating inconvenient facts.  Thank you.

It's really fascinating to realize, as you mentioned, that not all of your genes are expressed.  What this testifies of is the powerful influence of environment. 

At birth, our genes are usually healthy - besides rare major obvious genetic defects that are apparent at birth.  For most, it is not until we age that some problems come about - again because environment interacts with genes to express them or not.  This (among other reasons) is why it is insanely ridiculous to claim that someone is "born" with homosexual urges.  Another reason is that brains are only developed 25% at birth (mothers are grateful for that) - so brains adapt and grow along with environmental influences. 

As powerful as the environment is, it cannot make massive changes - like it can't turn a person into a dog, nor can it change a male part into a female part or visa versa.   However, there have been studies that show that not only do women after giving birth have hormonal changes (obviously) but men who take an active role in fathering do too.  Basic metaphysics.  This also shows the possibility of someone ie being sexually abused as a young child, and repeatedly exposed to homosexual porn - may, by environmental stimuli - have their hormones changed and may FEEL as if they were born a certain way.  But in reality, again we are born with obvious gender and DNA is never changed and gender cannot be changed by gene expression or lack of - same as it can't change species. 

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2 minutes ago, Amore said:

But in reality, again we are born with obvious gender

This really hammers down your ignorance. What happens when you have an ovotestis, or an XXY genotype since you are so fixated on DNA?

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On 12/11/2016 at 4:02 PM, Amore said:

That book and others like it have instructed people to respond with logical fallacies just like that. 

Forget facts - you'll never win because reality is against you - your own biology is testament against your illogical claims - so just engage in ad hominem attacks - that way, people who are similarly illogical and think along with others, will join suit.

When people present you with facts and studies, you ignore them or claim they are biased (without even reading the abstracts) or you twist them. Claiming, for instance, that gender and sex are the same and solid and obvious at birth despite mountains of evidence that they are not. So people point out that you must simply not want to learn and you claim ad hom.

Your claim that homosexuality is dangerous is 1) Not relevant to a thread on trans 2) Not true. I know you really want it to be true, but it's not. The fact that homosexuality use to be classified as a disorder is irrelevant to what we know now. Just like we can safely ignore antiquated claims that people of certain races are stupid. Your claim there was a massive conspiracy whereby the medical community changed the disorder not on science, but because of "threats" is unfounded. Your claim this is all part of massive brainwashing is laughable. Prejudice against gays dates backs to biblical times. In many areas of the world, it is still a crime punishable by death. Even in the developed world, LGBT have had to fight for their rights. Sodomy crimes were only declared unconstitutional in the US this century. The right to marry only recently. And still these were controversial decisions. People like yourself, who declare being gay a bad, shameful thing still exist in the millions. If anything, the brainwashing has been that being gay is wrong. Because there no reason one would come to that conclusion outside of being told it's bad.

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31 minutes ago, Amore said:

Αt birth, our genes are usually healthy - besides rare major obvious genetic defects that are apparent at birth.  For most, it is not until we age that some problems come about - again because environment interacts with genes to express them or not.  This (among other reasons, is why it is insanely ridiculous to claim that someone is "born" with homosexual urges.  Another reason is that brains are only developed 25% at birth (mothers are grateful for that) - so brains adapt and grow along with environmental influences. 

I do not understand what you mean with 'healthy'. Allelomorphs of genes aren't necessarily equally beneficial and some can cause problems of various degrees of severity. It's not either 'healthy' or 'unhealthy', it's not a binary. The lines are way more blurry than that. Not to mention that some genes aren't expressed until later in life by default, and a seemingly healthy baby might develop health complications for genetic reasons, regardless of the environment. Also, the majority of humans have some less beneficial allelomorphes, which can't be categorised as healthy or unhealthy. 

I see no link with homosexuality and what you said, and no reason why you mention it in a conversation about transgenderism. You did not dispute anything and didn't showe why one cannot been born as a homosexual. Even if homosexuality isn't completely due to genes (or even at all, but at this point I'm just humoring you), it can still be a product of the womb environment or both that and genes. Technically, the change in that scenario happens before birth, during very early developmental stages, which means that yes, one could be born with homosexual "urges", as you called it. And still, maybe only sexual tendecies are formed due to genes/womb environment, and it crystalizes because of experiences after being born. Even in that scenario, genes/environment before birth played a role. All that is still irrelevant, however. Whether one is born homosexual or not, it's still who they are, it still can't be changed, and it still is okay. Though I have yet to understand how homosexuality has anything to do with what you said about genes. (For the sake of arguing, sexual orientation could be part of that 25%, at least to a degree).

1 hour ago, Amore said:

As powerful as the environment is, it cannot make massive changes - like it can't turn a person into a dog, nor can it change a male part into a female part or visa versa.   However, there have been studies that show that not only do women after giving birth have hormonal changes (obviously) but men who take an active role in fathering do too.  Basic metaphysics.  This also shows the possibility of someone ie being sexually abused as a young child, and repeatedly exposed to homosexual porn - may, by environmental stimuli - have their hormones changed and may FEEL as if they were born a certain way.  But in reality, again we are born with obvious gender and DNA is never changed and gender cannot be changed by gene expression or lack of - same as it can't change species. 

Depends on your definition of massive. I think even the PKU example shows that it can, there's a 'massive' difference between having a mental disability (plus all the other complication that occur) and being healthy. 

I'm not even going to address the rest, there's no logical consistency and I have a migraine. One thing though, which I cannot ignore. You can't turn into an other species because there's no link between them and homo sapiens. It has nothing to do with our development, and the analogy is ridiculous.

Anyway, please excuse any mistakes I've made, for some reason I cannot delete what I've already typed on mobile.

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2 hours ago, slade19 said:

This really hammers down your ignorance. What happens when you have an ovotestis, or an XXY genotype since you are so fixated on DNA?

Maybe a bit of projection and jumping to conclusions as far as ignorance?

We're not discussing the extremely rare case of hermaphrodites.

We're discussing normal DNA children who are healthy - who's parents are delusionaly insisting their child TRY (in vain) to be the opposite gender.

 

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If different parts of the same body are of different sexes in some people, or even their entire bodies -including people with XX or XY and no genetic disorder- then it's not a stretch to imagine someone with a brain of the other sex (if you bothered looking at any science you could see that occuring for example in the body map area). The only difference between hermaphroditism and transgenderism is that the brain superficially looks alike in both sexes while ovaries and testis and breasts are very visually striking, which would explain why you are unable to make abstraction of them. It's not that difficult really.

Just now, Amore said:

who's parents are delusionaly insisting their child TRY (in vain) to be the opposite gender.

I am pretty sure nobody here is arguing that. Once again, you are arguing on your own. I don't see any referrence to homosexuality either in the OP or anywhere else except in your posts. You are obsessed. If you are not going to adress the studies linked by Doob properly and refuse to change your arguments, I am going to ignore from now on any appeal to science from you, since your position on it will be clear.

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On 12/13/2016 at 4:54 PM, Amore said:

Maybe a bit of projection and jumping to conclusions as far as ignorance?

We're not discussing the extremely rare case of hermaphrodites.

We're discussing normal DNA children who are healthy - who's parents are delusionaly insisting their child TRY (in vain) to be the opposite gender.

 

Maybe that's what you're discussing, but I think nobody will argue* that a parent imposing a specific gender role on their child is healthy. I think it's pretty obvious that trying to force your kid to be the gender they're not is harmful.

That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the people themselves who experience gender dysphoria and want to transition. Not people who are having it forced on them. People who want it but are being told they're sick or broken. Talked to (or about) like they're diseased for feeling that way.

(*caveat: except people like you. You're actually arguing for this, though you don't seem to realize it)

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