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About ersondick

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  1. Not sure what you mean by that... Good points going on the "attraction" question. I'm gathering that we INTJers (pronounced "inchers") are pretty much like most on the importance of an initial physical attraction--perhaps more willing to continue explorations a bit later. ie, "necessary but not sufficient". So... maybe ten years along in an LTR... it's the mindstuff that keeps two INTJers together--perhaps unlike "F" people who form overriding sentimental attachments that act like glue of their own sort. Yes, no? As to friends > lovers... I suppose I mean: One good friend says to the other, "We're so close... Why don't we look at something that includes more physical affection and a real longterm commitment?" and the other replies "I've thought of it. I want something like that in my life. There's an attraction... I just wonder if it's strong enough to override decades of fantasy about the Perfect One I've Been Waiting For..." Because, you know, don't we INTJers insist on perfection? I suppose age makes a big diff. I'm not at all talking about horny types in the first Spring of youth...
  2. Do you have a cite on this? Good mutuality of attraction is one thing... but does that mean equal "attractiveness" on some semi-mythical socio-normative scale? Or just that relationships last longer if there's mutual attraction, which doesn't say much, really...
  3. I posted much of this in another posting, but the main questions got lost in a forest of personal context. So here's the cleaned-up version. (1) In assessing potential partners for a possible sexo-romantic LTR, how significant a factor is "sexy good looks" for the "typical" INTJ? I'm talking age-mature persons well beyond the biologically mandated hormonal angst of twentysomethingness. (So, many of you will have to do some educated guessing based on observation... Perhaps not so hard for INTJ's.) (2) What issues are involved in moving a dual INTJ "budship" (nonsexual so far) toward a future-minded romance? Given that in all such cases one party will start off more motivated than the other, what concerns will the less-motivated one be dealing with (from his INTJ perspective)--that is, what should the more-motivated party be prepared to address? (...by clear verbal reasoning or by sneaky background manipulation...heh.)
  4. Tonguing = too much. An affectionate squeeze and little kiss = wonderful. Then again, I automatically thought "public place, shopping mall, restaurant". But that wasn't specified. I majorly man-smooched at a party when I was much younger. Mmmm.
  5. Naa. Mere mechanical skill is almost the opposite of "interest". It does demonstrate a degree of flexibility...
  6. First off, INTJ's like me may be put off by your post, as in advance it looks lengthy and detailed and rather messy. In other words, one can see in advance that it demands an investment of time. We tend to analyze things in advance and ask "Will I end up glad I spent effort on this?" You can't believe how true that is. In "relationships" too. We think in terms of payoff, not "fun along the way, right now"--which seems to me what spontaneous emotion is. And I have the impression that spontaneous is very central to the xSxP--you. I call them Experiencers. It's less about "emotion" in a nurturing, sentimental sense than about free to be me, right now. I think INTJ's tend to resent such an imposition on their daily agenda. This builds into sulking and avoidance--and stubbornness. I say, with empathy and regret, that it's most unlikely you'll find what you need with this MBTI type. Neither of you will be able to change the other. I realize that the trangen aspect adds some practical considerations, as does your childhood experience. Perhaps there's a way to downshift and redefine your relationship to something with a less "spousal" framework. You wanted advice... mine is to find a decent way to see other people, looking very specifically for emotional intuition (with a nurturing aspect) and spontaneity. Someone to notice and address, right away, your changing moods and needs. An ESFP, perhaps? Think "giving and sensitive".
  7. IMHO, this is likely the "why" with an INTJ. It's an entirely reasonable choice. As a side comment, not meant to be snarky... lecturing people about the joys of true love fulfilled can come across as INTJ-shaming. The OP didn't indicate not knowing this. It's been in the media...
  8. Could you state in one sentence why this is a predicament? Is the issue primarily the trip thing? Because "I feel hurt because my boyf might be seeing his ex" isn't exactly a "predicament"--it's an unpleasant fact and a real pain.
  9. Thanks for the interest. I feel a bit embarassed now--here I am, an INTJ talking about a silly hangup and projecting it onto others. Still, people need to know that this is also a flavor of the INTJ. We really can yearn for passionate/sentimental/downright sweet romantic bonding. But it involves a great deal of self-demand for a "good strategy" leading to a "payoff for considerable investment." Perhaps finding "love" requires taking big chances... which is precisely what INTJ's try to avoid doing. BTW, is there a specific forum--or site--for gay male INTJ's?
  10. Thanks all. I'm not asking here for "learn to love yourself" advice, and I already know that a great many people seek and value partners for kindness, lovingness, intellect, wit... many great things. I even know that society much overvalues commercializable "good looks" and "youthfulness". But words can point to untruths as well as truths. It's easy to say that there's a biggish subpopulation of men out there who don't care all that much about whether a potential partner "looks a bit long in the tooth". What are the facts? The INTJ facts? The gay-male facts? The only Me I know is repelled by "grandpa"--all else is mere reportage. And there are reasons, social and psychological, why persons might overlook their own truths when they express their prefs. Would you date someone with (evidently permanent and unconquerable) B.O.--and think about LTR? A midget? Blind? Deaf? Would "great character" be a good enough reason for a hetero man to consider dating and committing to another man? How many het 50-something male INTJ love-seekers would be open to investing time and emotion in a mid-60-something woman? Sure, some would--but is it at all common? Maybe it is, and I just don't realize it because it looms for me.
  11. I appreciate the input, toki. As I'm inclined to answer your questions (it is, of course, clarifying for me to do so)... how has he responded to prolonged eye contact and touch? Eye-contact is easily returned. "touch" response is--I don't know how to judge it. have you ever discussed intimate topics? Yes, very much. But neither of us tries to zero in on "you and I" aspects. (If we had, I wouldn't need to post this question.) What was his reaction? Open, trusting, and candid; as was my own. For me, bringing up the "age thing" specifically would be too much of a "tell" and might elicit a kindly but untrue reply. Which would be worse than useless. Have his views changed since you last spoke or were the deep discussions more recent? I think they're essentially the same as 25 years ago, zero sluttiness, very much the INTJ "find an elegant solution to romantic bonding--or just live without". I think it's quite clear he wants love in his life, as do I. But wanting in general doesn't exclude rejecting in particular, obviously. are you sure you're attracted to him, and not his youth? I wouldn't label a man in his 50's young. His age puts him in the acceptable zone for me. My attraction definitely comes from a reaction to his personality, character, and suchlike. why didn't you pursue him before? I did, but in the wimpy INTJ manner that reveals nothing and risks nothing. He's an INTJ too, and I think "dating" is a difficult minefield for the INTJ. Yes? Jeez, are there really people who say flat-out Are you attracted to me? Should we try dating? OMG what makes you withdraw from him? You mean, in the past? Or theoretically? would he be unable to care for you if you were to have a sudden health issue? No prob, as far as I know. would becoming what you consider a burden to him create a situation where you couldn't let him go if he decided he wasn't able to support you? Not an issue; I would return to sharing a house with a relative. in addition, please think about what has prevented either of you from committing to LTR's to this point. No one has ever initiated a date with me, so the possibility of LTR never came up. My own gentle say-we-should-get-together-some-time's have been evaded or directly rebuffed (by others, not Q). I probably demonstrated INTJ socio-romantic ineptness. His story seems the same. I feel I have very healthy self-esteem, by the way; I'm puzzled by my inability to inspire romantic interest in others. do those limitations still hold you [both] back? Perhaps the memory of past failures holds me back; actually, though, I'm much more forward and "skilled" than I was even a year ago. But I'm oppressed by the notion that he, like me, would find a man over 60 outside the zone of serious consideration. Maybe it's a gay-male thing. how do you plan on moving forward and progressing? Knowing me, I'll probably pursue him with every subtle strategem my INTJ brain can come up with until the situation gets so hurtful I give up. I figure I don't have to sugar-coat things on a forum like this. Don't nobody ask me to stop being an INTJ, please. do you have the [old saggy hairy] balls to ask him if your interest is reciprocal directly after your assessment? I don't know. My experience is: (a) If you have to ask, the answer is No; (b) If you don't ask, you never know the answer at all. Sort of a logic dilemma, aye? One solution: deduce the critical facts without asking. And this posting is part of all that. At any rate, and appreciating all this, I'm still looking for an answer to my specific question--whether INTJ's are typically fairly open to romancing someone older--or typically more like me in attitude. Even if my issue is very idiosyncratic, some out there might relate to it.
  12. It's a fair question, toki. But it seems to me that's the INTJ way of being--assess probabilities of success, scout out the territory--then, only then, play your hand. Use strategic skill to minimize vulnerability. Better to withdraw than be crushed... an INTJ notion, aye? Anyway, the bigger part of the question is, in effect, does Q's being an INTJ (as am I) me affect the likelihood of his being accepting of my fairly visible older age? It would matter to me--but maybe that's not typical of INTJ's. Noting that males--particularly gay males--may start off type-atypical.
  13. This is a risibly complicated question with a lot of critical specifics. In other words, an INTJ kind of thing. Maybe someone will care to parse through it and comment usefully. Me: gay male INTJ American, mid-60’s. Situational parameters: After quite a few years I’ve reconnected with a guy I used to know. Back then, we were (I guess) “friends” with a (possible, never uttered) mutual romantic attraction. We were co-workers, chatted (in the old sense, verbally), had dinner out on several occasions, got a little deeper on the subject of vulnerabilities relationships, etc. I found him—call him Q—attractive, charming, and appealing. I don’t recall discussing “feelings for each other” or “where this might go”; not at all. He’s about a dozen years younger. Since reconnecting after losing touch, we’ve talked quite a lot, at length, by “e” and telephone. Though geographically separated by a drive of several hours, we’ve met for dinner several times during this last year. He is also an INTJ—single, professional, non-nerdy, witty, not into hookups. We talk easily, share life values, are emotionally open to each other... though not in a definitely romantic way thus far. Many connections. Both of us are oriented toward LTRs (neither has had one). Nature of problem: Though I’m a tall, broad-shouldered, blue-eyed type and more-or-less “good looking”, I have never in my life been romantically attracted to “seniors,” even healthy and handsome ones, and it’s hard for me to even imagine a gay guy being attracted to me as anything more than a “special friend”. Even if Q were to say something about my (sexual) attractiveness—he hasn’t so far—I think I would be unable to believe it. I would take it as “being kind” or maybe some degree of desperation. I don’t want to be someone’s consolation prize; not because of excessive pride, but because (here’s another premise) it seems to me that guys don’t succeed in amatory LTRs that don’t at least begin with... that tingle. Mutually. (I don’t mean specifically “lust”.) So. To restate my question: Given that INTJ’s are sometimes characterized as being more focused on intellectual style and competence than conventional “raw looks”—just how reasonable is it for a non-youth like myself to think another gay INTJ will seriously consider becoming more-than-friends? Am I likely to be ruled out from the start because I have gray-white hair, a saggy chin—etc? Remember, I myself would rule me out for “looking too old” (don’t bother criticizing that personal reaction, please). I’m willing to believe that my personal age-phobia is too idiosyncratic to be advance-factored in my assumptions about Q. But—is it? Really? Does this matter to most INTJ’s as they look to what was once called “settling down” in later life? I don’t think even INTJ’s can be “talked into” taking delight in someone whose looks include a specific turn-off...