[Lucid]

	Originally Posted by Cyrus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good lawyers bend the law in their favour.

No. I'm sorry. Everything else you've said may have merit (I haven't begun to respond yet), but this is false. I come from a family of lawyers. A good lawyer does his best to represent his client's side withing the confines of the law and the rules of the court. What you're talking about is an unethical lawyer.

But, since that's WAY off topic, on to The Game.

I can understand wanting to be more socialy adept. I'm (believe it or not) pretty good with people. I have lots of friends, all of whom have incredible respect for me and many of whom I've known since high school, and very few enemies. In fact, even my enemies usually want to be my friends. I make a good impression on networking contacts and as a result, many doors are opened for me.
I can do that without reading books, but instead observing people and how they act and react to me (although I recognize that many people can't do this).

So while the "manual for picking up bimbos" thing certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I'm not a bimbo and so probably don't have much to be concerned with. So my only real problem with The Game, and the problem that I see at the heart of it, is that it seems to be a way to put on a fake persona for the purposes of manipulating others and getting from them something that you want.
How can this lead to anything meaningful?
I don't mean to say that acting nicer or trying to make a joke to make someone comfortable is manipulation, but it seems that The Game (from what I've read on this thread) takes this to an extreme which cannot be called anything but.

Maybe this goes back to the lawyer example. The lawyer you describe (bending the law to his benefit) is incredibly unethical and obviously only cares that he wins, even if it means he has to cheat to do this.
The Game seems to advocate a similar stance toward socializing. The fact that it seems the desired end result in the book is sex makes it seem really manipulative and unethical to me.

There's nothing wrong with learning some social graces and maybe toning ourselves down a bit for the sake of making friends and good networking contacts. Or even getting a date. But when your whole personality in these situations is a facade contrived to manipulate others into doing what you want, I can't see how a person who does this can sleep at night. Or how they can value any of the friends they might make as a result of such a facade, since all those friends know is the facade.

If you're using the book to gain a few socializing tips (like telling jokes or remembering to make eye contact), then more power to you for wanting to learn these things. If you're using it as I described in the previous paragraph... well I'd have to disapprove.
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[blueback]

Well, you haven't read The Game, so you're basing your opinion of it on other people's opinion of it. For what it's worth, my opinion of it is favorable. It is a novel, not a dissertation on human psychology. The novel actually covers a lot of ground, including the inevitable ill-effects of devoting oneself to chasing bimbos. At the end, everyone has learned a lot about themselves and the world, and most of the characters move on to more mature pursuits.

I get the impression you are disgusted by the pickup community's focus on "laying", or having sex with, many women. This is an amusing position to take since I have yet to throw a stick into a crowd of men without hitting half a dozen guys who want to have sex with many women. It's a common desire, the PUAs have simply gotten good enough at it to brag. Most men think of dating like roulette; they put their money on the table and hope they get lucky. PUAs think of dating more like kayaking on rapids; there are varying degrees of difficulty, you'll probably get wet, and you'll have a lot of fun.

If you've never been part of a community you should be careful presenting your opinion of it. Sure, you might not like the quick and dirty description of what goes on, but that doesn't mean you have understood everything. Once you get into the literature, you find that the vast majority of the things you are told to do are all focused on making you more self-confident. They dangle the carrot (sex) in front of you because it is a powerful motivating force and it can be tabulated. Every guy wants sex, or at least wants women to want to have sex with him, and it is easy to track. However, there is no step which states "try to find the girl that looks stupid and drunk" or "tell her you love her so that she'll sleep with you."

The PUA literature works because it doesn't leave a guy hanging like a self-help book which tells him to "be himself" and it doesn't lead a guy down the wrong path by telling him to "buy her a drink." Basically, it tells a guy to do things which make him project self-confidence. As long as he can keep doing those things he will quickly come to understand them and he will then become self-confident. Every author I've ever read agrees on one point, that a guy who is confident and consistent can do absolutely anything he feels like and he will pull girls left and right. Of course, once he feels self-confident he will become attracted to self-confidence in others (women specifically) and will lose interest in the bimbos he practiced on.

The specific actions that guys are taught to do have a very high success rate, once they begin to internalize the actions they can generate their own actions which will also have a high success rate, but the process is linear, they can't skip steps. It's founded on the fact that most guys are handicapped when it comes to dating. They have been bombarded with so much conflicting advice about how to go about it that they constantly second guess themselves, which is the least attractive thing they can possibly do. The PUA literature sets them straight simply by pointing out that if they engage socially over and over again they will start to see patterns, that it isn't as chaotic as they had thought, and then they will stop second guessing themselves.

Of course, this is a predominantly Christian country, so if you don't think that sex out of wedlock is bad, you usually tend to at least feel mildly guilty about it. That is up to you to deal with in your own way. I suggest that you practice, figure out what makes you happy, and then don't settle for anything less. But don't linger over the idea of other people having sex like it was a piece of road kill. If you're disgusted move on, nothing to see here.

[Lucid]

Blueblack, I'm basing my opinion on what you and Cyrus have told me about it, among others. If you are a fan of The Game, that's fine for you. I think it sounds rather manipulative and am therefore not a fan.

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I get the impression you are disgusted by the pickup community's focus on "laying", or having sex with, many women. This is an amusing position to take since I have yet to throw a stick into a crowd of men without hitting half a dozen guys who want to have sex with many women.

Stop making assumptions. I have a problem with anyone having sex with any number of anyone elses through manipulation. That's what it sounds like this book is advocating. That's why I have a problem with it.

Everything else in your post seems to be directed at your assumption that I have a problem with people having casual sex with large numbers of many other people. This is not the case, so I won't waste both my time and yours by responding to each of your incorrect assumptions.

My problem is with manipulation. Not sex of any kind involving any number of other adults of any race, religion or gender.

As I stated:

	If you're using the book to gain a few socializing tips (like telling jokes or remembering to make eye contact), then more power to you for wanting to learn these things.

[slut poacher]

as much as i hate clubs,i am always getting dragged to them by friends.i do enjoy sitting back and watching events unfold.it is not unlike watching animal planet,the posturing and posing followed by the show of plumage,then capped off by the mating dance.and if all the rituals have been performed successfully,the actual mating (provided her girlfriend isnt holding her hair out of the toilet)

[Cyrus]

Firstly, apologies on my ignorance of lawyers. Heard of many stinking stories from some lawyers I know. No offence intended to you or ur relatives Lucid. There're ethical and unethical people in every field.

Back to topic...
I'm against manipulating anyone for sex. Tt's something I definitely dont approve of (and wouldn't want to sleep with someone I don’t know well anyway. U cant forge a mental bond in 1 night). Although I would have to say, that alot of the girls in clubs want to be played. They want some guy to come along and say the right thing, do the right moves, hit the sweet spot again and again and *ta-da*. There're people out there who do it because it works... male & female. Ethically wrong? Yes. Happens? Yes. Why? No bloody clue
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	But when your whole personality in these situations is a facade contrived to manipulate others into doing what you want, I can't see how a person who does this can sleep at night. Or how they can value any of the friends they might make as a result of such a facade, since all those friends know is the facade.

I understand where you're coming from. Although I must say that I've seen through some people who put on a mask for so long that they think it's their real face and defend it like it is, because they are afraid to look in the mirror and confront their own fallibility, weakness and insecurity. The thing is, that they draw the people who are similar to them internally and it becomes a permanent acting school = Bad politics. If we're personally honest, then we usually draw those who are also personally honest. Correct me if i'm wrong anyone.
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The point I'm trying to drive across is not to put on a mask, but to become a better person by learning what works and internalising it. We can learn how to ride a bicycle, do math, study law until it becomes a part of us. Nothing very different wrt social things as well. I dont agree with all the literature I read, but that doesn't mean we cannot learn from it either. A female friend of mine read The Game to caution some of her friends. (but they’re bims. Lol) Much can be learned about the topic itself without sharing the same ethics as the people who wrote it. I hand it to PUAs who’ve turned this practically into a science and some part of The Game does talk about “undorking” guys, helping them out and building their self confidence – which is good.

Take the good, throw out the bad, add your own understanding.

And yes, I do feel that many people cannot understand or relate to the INTJ type of thinking or world view. Hence the need to watch, listen and adjust.
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[Lucid]

	Originally Posted by Cyrus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Firstly, apologies on my ignorance of lawyers. Heard of many stinking stories from some lawyers I know. No offence intended to you or ur relatives Lucid. There're ethical and unethical people in every field.

I heartily agree that there are good and bad people in every profession. I didn't take offense at your comment, I just felt it was necessary to draw the distinction between "good" and "ethical" with regard to lawyers. Although as far as many people are concerned, the two are interchangeable.

Originally Posted by Cyrus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Although I would have to say, that alot of the girls in clubs want to be played. They want some guy to come along and say the right thing, do the right moves, hit the sweet spot again and again and *ta-da*. There're people out there who do it because it works... male & female. Ethically wrong? Yes. Happens? Yes. Why? No bloody clue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There are? Well I don't hang out in clubs much and I don't know many people who do, so I'll defer to your judgment. I had no idea, although now that you bring it up I can see how it might be.



I understand where you're coming from. Although I must say that I've seen through some people who put on a mask for so long that they think it's their real face and defend it like it is, because they are afraid to look in the mirror and confront their own fallibility, weakness and insecurity. The thing is, that they draw the people who are similar to them internally and it becomes a permanent acting school = Bad politics. If we're personally honest, then we usually draw those who are also personally honest. Correct me if i'm wrong anyone.
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Originally Posted by Cyrus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The point I'm trying to drive across is not to put on a mask, but to become a better person by learning what works and internalising it. We can learn how to ride a bicycle, do math, study law until it becomes a part of us. Nothing very different wrt social things as well. I dont agree with all the literature I read, but that doesn't mean we cannot learn from it either. A female friend of mine read The Game to caution some of her friends. (but they’re bims. Lol) Much can be learned about the topic itself without sharing the same ethics as the people who wrote it. I hand it to PUAs who’ve turned this practically into a science and some part of The Game does talk about “undorking” guys, helping them out and building their self confidence – which is good. Take the good, throw out the bad, add your own understanding.

I'm totally cool with that. You don't have to like the ethics or morals of the people who wrote the book to get some use out of it.

[Sevs]

Right I am almost through with the game and the question i ask myself are there any INTJ PUAs ?

I mean surely you need to have E tendencies to pull some of that stuff off?
---
Hey John welcome to the forum.

I have seen people recommend
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for MBTI based dating haven't tried it myself but i guess you could give it a shot.

Sev

[iamnotspock]

	Originally Posted by Sevs To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Right I am almost through with the game and the question i ask myself are there any INTJ PUAs ? I mean surely you need to have E tendencies to pull some of that stuff off?

Well, I tried that stuff a few years ago before it was mainstream. It's actually good for a lone wolf. Mostly you are playing a game of one on one -- or one on two. Or at most two on two with a wing. Small groups are where I's excel. So I made a lot of progress before I got involved with an LTR and came back out the other end reborn as an AFC all over again.

Anyway, the key is practice. You cannot learn to ride a bike or swim from a book. A seduction board will have you out there making EC, openings, practicing kino, and number closes and doing field reports. I posted on the Don Juan forum until they revamped it and my account was lost. You need that kind of support to play the game.

[The Many]

	Originally Posted by Sevs To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Right I am almost through with the game and the question i ask myself are there any INTJ PUAs ? I mean surely you need to have E tendencies to pull some of that stuff off?

As I've stated somewhere else on this forum, I've both tried it and seen others do it - it works. I don't like it; after all it'll only lead to someone falling for some moves you make rather than you yourself. That, and I hate manipulating people, even though manipulation is technically nothing else than influencing others to make certain choices. I do, however, value honesty - I am of the belief that honesty is what will bring the best conclusions in the end (at least when it comes to personal matters, I know all too well that cheating will get you places, but now I'm leaving the topic).

But of course, it works if you want casual sex, but that's something I never cared for much anyway.

[Sevs]

Originally Posted by iamnotspock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, I tried that stuff a few years ago before it was mainstream. It's actually good for a lone wolf. Mostly you are playing a game of one on one -- or one on two. Or at most two on two with a wing. Small groups are where I's excel. So I made a lot of progress before I got involved with an LTR and came back out the other end reborn as an AFC all over again. Anyway, the key is practice. You cannot learn to ride a bike or swim from a book. A seduction board will have you out there making EC, openings, practicing kino, and number closes and doing field reports. I posted on the Don Juan forum until they revamped it and my account was lost. You need that kind of support to play the game.

Thats good that mean i can (try to) learn it =)

About 1.5 years ago when i somehow found all this PUA stuff i started reading loads on it and was about to try it out "unfortunately" that was when i met my now ex girlfriend and fell hard for her. Also I was in a boarding school in th emidlde of nowhere so there wasnt to much gaming to be done.

I have been an active lurker around the sosuave forums during this time period to but i never dared to post there as i know id be shreddered to pieces at this stage ;-).

Originally Posted by The Many To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As I've stated somewhere else on this forum, I've both tried it and seen others do it - it works. I don't like it; after all it'll only lead to someone falling for some moves you make rather than you yourself. That, and I hate manipulating people, even though manipulation is technically nothing else than influencing others to make certain choices. I do, however, value honesty - I am of the belief that honesty is what will bring the best conclusions in the end (at least when it comes to personal matters, I know all too well that cheating will get you places, but now I'm leaving the topic). But of course, it works if you want casual sex, but that's something I never cared for much anyway.

Good thats what i wanted to hear "it works".

I think for some reason this is one of my mid-term goals becoming a PUA i don't know why yes I don't agree with the morals all the time but I think it's just one of these things id like to be able to do and a skill that might be useful for the future.

Sev

[mikeeppolito]

am pretty much in agreement with the views posted here. I'm finding a great alternative to clubs and such is the young adult group at my church. Of course it's my belief to only date a woman that's a Christian. Given that, there's some pretty hot girls in this group! I develop crushes pretty easily but believe at least one or two girls would be open to "dating" me. What's nice though is that we all hang out together on Sundays during and after church. So this takes care of the "getting to know each other" part. And of course feelings develop naturally, etc. A totally great way to meet girls!

[Maitri1970]

Hi Sevs,

I endured clubs when I was younger because my "friends" enjoyed going to them. When I grew up a little bit, I realized I was doing what other people my age were doing and neglecting the fact that I thought clubbing was a stupid waste of time. Ironically, I agreed to meet a friend of mine in a reggae club when I was still living in Japan and the bartender hit on me! We dated for almost 2 years but I wouldn't step foot in the club more than twice a year because I couldn't stand being around smoke and drunks. My boyfriend was a musician and his friend owned the club but he was very different when he wasn't at work. He was a young INTJ, as well. Weird.

I don't date now. It doesn't work and feels completely forced and fake. I hope to meet someone in my graduate program who's a school nerd, like me. They're the best! haha.

[Cyrus]

	Good thats what i wanted to hear "it works". I think for some reason this is one of my mid-term goals becoming a PUA i don't know why yes I don't agree with the morals all the time but I think it's just one of these things id like to be able to do and a skill that might be useful for the future.

Sevs, yes it works. These PUA thingos are just tools really. With proper practice, anyone can learn the principles. The tools just are, the morals... belong to the person.

They can be used in helping to maintain a long term relation. I know 2 to 3 people who know how to play the game, but dont. They're stable long term people who learned it to treat a lady well.

I'd say this works well for INTJs who have little breadth wrt people we feel for, but alot of depth for those that we do care for.

[The Many]

	Originally Posted by Sevs To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good thats what i wanted to hear "it works". I think for some reason this is one of my mid-term goals becoming a PUA i don't know why yes I don't agree with the morals all the time but I think it's just one of these things id like to be able to do and a skill that might be useful for the future. Sev

The mechanic they play on is really more interesting than the Game itself, if you ask me. Just knowing what's going on will feed your ego, I've got a friend (ESTP, by the way) who's an extreme natural. Sitting back and watching him working with girls is very entertaining in itself.

[terencec]

	Originally Posted by iamnotspock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Anyway, the key is practice. You cannot learn to ride a bike or swim from a book. A seduction board will have you out there making EC, openings, practicing kino, and number closes and doing field reports. I posted on the Don Juan forum until they revamped it and my account was lost. You need that kind of support to play the game.

Unless someone was born with the talent, there is too much work to play the game and not much return (in my opinion) ... If we just want sex, why can't we pay for it? That is the most efficient way. If we want relationship, it may be worth to invest in it. HOwever, I see most people are quite different (espeically for "INTJ", less than 2% population), it is hard to believe the couples are compatible without giving up most of attributes. The problem will not show up in the beginning though.

Off topic. The main problem is the hormone. We are the prisoner of our hormone. Sometimes, I feel there is no free will about sex (I could not will what I will, i.e. my sexual desire has been programmed before I was born.) because I cannot control my sexual desire (I can control only my sexual act). What is the meaning to have sex pleasure (with a lot of women)? There is no meaning but most men still want it (me too). The other problem is we are "concious" that we think. This is my frustration.

[iamnotspock]

Well, I have been using the first steps (baby steps) of the PUA playbook and enjoying the results. By simply smiling, talking to everyone, making good eye contact, using a soft voice, and keeping my speech and actions slow and deliberate (women are like deer, no sudden moves, and you can freeze them in your high-beams, ha ha), I've met a half-dozen women in my building this past week. And from the signals I get I can tell they are interested. That little flirtation right there is more fun than you can ever have on the internet.

Now the problem is how to turn an awkward elevator conversation into a mini-date. There are a few possibilities.

One is the gym in the building. If I'm going down there and run into one of them again I can suggest they join me next time, and get their contact info.

Another is the supermarket down the street. If we're both leaving the building and walking that way (likely) I can mention some great new food item there and see if they want to stop by. Nothing like candy to catch the babes.

Two of the women I met have dogs. If they're going out to walk the dog that is an easy one, just walk along for a bit and make some chit chat.

Anyway, I really need some new female companionship, I think my friend's GF is sick of me!

[Des]

I was never into the club and bar thing. I wasn't interested in dating when I was in college actually but that's when the guys started hitting on me and asking me out. They didn't know how to take NO for an answer. I've noticed a lot of girls can't tell when a guy likes them right away. Luckily I can and so I started saying yes to these guys only to get free lunches and rides and show them that no means no. Then I'd dump them cold turkey. I really just wanted to be left alone to study. I figured I'd start to look for a mate AFTER college. I met my husband standing in line to register for a class. I was taking a math course at a community college off campus because all the maths were full at my school. I also procrastinate and didn't get in on time so I had to go off campus quite often. I thought I'd give him the same treatment but he was an INTP and when I found out we had so much common ground that it was insane and I was actually having fun, we became best friends. Then we became official and finally married. That's the short short version of it. I'm so glad my first boyfriend was the one as I had intended it to be. Also I had this list of qualities in my head that a guy had to meet. It was long and pretty strickt. If he didn't he wasn't worth my time. I didn't think anyone would meet it but when he did well I couldn't throw him out the window like I had the others. Now we DO still go out on dates for dinner every weekend or a movie. I think date night when you're married is the best and I'm a very happy person.

[jdc127]

I would like to reccomend OKCupid. It is free and a great way to meet potnetial friends and mates without most of the whole social preliminary dating dance being necessary to discover if you are compatible.

[danalaina]

	Originally Posted by Lucid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Plus you have to shout at someone to be heard. Nothing says romance like, "HEY WHAT'S YOUR NAME!? DO YOU COME HERE OFTEN?!" "WHAT!?"

i always found this was the perfect time to say really outrageous things and then watch the resulting shifts in facial expression. fun.

yeah, i don't get out much.





danalaina added to this post, 6 minutes and 53 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Sevs To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[...] are there actually any guys that go to a club for fun and not with the intention to get laid or "meet someone" ?

the little cynical part of me wants to say "only if they're gay." the even more cynical part of me wants to say, "no, not even then." XD

	Originally Posted by Sevs To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Part of the reason my ex gf left me was that I was not "fun enough" as she really enjoys clubbing and is a amazing dancer.

i was one of those chicks...i was out dancing every weekend, at least. i can tell you that the attraction to that lifestyle calmed down a lot for me after a few years. i don't remember things really settling down much for myself or my friends until maybe 25-28.





danalaina added to this post, 3 minutes and 32 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Nomad To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You want to up your odds, gentlemen? Learn to dance.

brilliant assessment, per usual. it's not necessarily fair, but i always paid more attention to guys who could acquit themselves well on the dance floor. it's attractive and way too rare.





danalaina added to this post, 21 minutes and 54 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Quentin
	I would prefer to get to know a girl at least a little bit before making any sort of move.

	Originally Posted by Tarrick
	Agreed. I mean, first of all, one must establish if you can stand her/him for more then ten minutes in more then one setting. Then you move on to if you have any sort of mutual interests/connections. After you establish that you could be at least friends, then you can start to think about asking her/him out.

interesting. how long does that take for everybody?

i can (generally) tell you inside of thirty seconds whether i'm interested in someone (platonically/romantically/whatever) and inside of three minutes whether that person is likely to figure significantly in my life in any way.

if we're talking purely romantically, those numbers probably get even a little smaller, because i can automatically eliminate many just based on lack of physical chemistry.

if my gut tells me not to waste my time with the person, i'll sum it up and walk away a moment later.

so...out of curiosity...how much time do y'all generally need to make these assessments?

[Rohsiph]

Originally Posted by danalaina To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

interesting. how long does that take for everybody? i can (generally) tell you inside of thirty seconds whether i'm interested in someone (platonically/romantically/whatever) and inside of three minutes whether that person is likely to figure significantly in my life in any way. if we're talking purely romantically, those numbers probably get even a little smaller, because i can automatically eliminate many just based on lack of physical chemistry. if my gut tells me not to waste my time with the person, i'll sum it up and walk away a moment later. so...out of curiosity...how much time do y'all generally need to make these assessments?

I remember reading at least a couple of times about how women "know" whether or not they're interested in someone almost immediately . . .

and I'm always at a loss when I hear it, because it sounds so limiting. The problem, re: earlier directions in this discussion, women are preyed upon--women don't have to limit themselves; if they make a mistake, there'll be another guy to go out with soon enough. Generally, of course . . .

I've never been in a significant "romantic" relationship before . . . I used to think I could tell, by one look, whether there was any potential for (kind of relationship) with anyone. But now, I try not to write anyone off immediately . . . the feeling is still there--I'll get impressions pretty quickly, particularly about types I tend to be incompatible with, but these days I make the effort to not push anyone away unless that hunch is just ridiculous strong (pretty rare).

[iamnotspock]

If you write people off in 30 seconds or less how will you ever know if you were wrong?

This shows how much of the dating game is purely image based. One's accomplishments, ideas, integrity, conversational skills, etc. are worthless in a 30 second window. It is this time-pressure which favors players, who learn techniques to sway the snap-decisions in their favor.

[Solaris]

I usually know inside the first few minutes if a person will have a significant impact upon my life. It hasn't been wrong yet. I can't tell you why that is, it just is. However, I am trying not to write people off (especially men), because I have come to the conclusion that dating friends who are men is a much better way to go. Therefore, a man in whom I am not instantly romantically interested may still have a chance once I get to know him. However, this instant knowing is not just for Extroverts. I know the same whether the person is E or I. It's like a little voice whispers to me about some people when I meet them.

[danalaina]

	Originally Posted by iamnotspock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you write people off in 30 seconds or less how will you ever know if you were wrong?

i can't always, obviously. but it's happened often enough that i met a guy briefly, moved along because my gut told me to, and then learned something later on about him that reinforced it. women talk. hell, men talk, too. sometimes you guys are worse than a sewing circle.

	Originally Posted by iamnotspock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This shows how much of the dating game is purely image based. One's accomplishments, ideas, integrity, conversational skills, etc. are worthless in a 30 second window. It is this time-pressure which favors players, who learn techniques to sway the snap-decisions in their favor.

i definitely respond to a guy's body language and also to what his eyes are telling me vs. what his mouth is. "image" is the wrong word, i think...it suggests we're only focusing on physical attractiveness, and that just ain't so. i get enough clues in thirty seconds to know whether that guy could ever get in my pants, and if he's not getting in my pants, he could never become my SO.

	Originally Posted by iamnotspock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	One's accomplishments, ideas, integrity, conversational skills, etc. are worthless in a 30 second window.

gotta disagree with you there. conversational skills come into play immediately. accomplishments and integrity will contribute greatly to your sense of self-worth, which is also pretty evident physically.

	Originally Posted by iamnotspock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It is this time-pressure which favors players, who learn techniques to sway the snap-decisions in their favor.

yep. just like a guy who speaks French will have an easier time getting around over there. it's a language, like any other.

no need to worry, though. for the guys who don't possess that knowledge innately, How To books will only get them so far with a smart woman (assuming they're the target). it's much better just to be yourself and play the numbers (if you're impatient). eventually you'll find the women who immediately like what they see. we're all different. this idea that we're all looking for the drop-dead gorgeous alpha male is ridiculous.

but setting that aside, when we're talking about romance, it all comes down to chemistry...if i'm permitted to see a guy in action in a crowded room prior to speaking with him, i probably don't even need 30 seconds to tell you if i'm interested. no idea or accomplishment that you might blurt out in the course of a conversation can get around that.

[iamnotspock]

In 30 seconds with an INTJ you would not learn much.

The notion that self-assurance can be determined by brief observation is also patently false. Confidence is highly situational. Meaning, a super-confident geek may be a low-confidence dancer. Observe them in the wrong venue and you learned .... nothing. I've also found that many confident "group" guys are weak one on one. Without their boys to back them up, they lack confidence and are easily handled. (Of course, women may like them this way).

More critically, while personality may be evident after a few dates, character takes much longer to uncover. Does your guy pay his taxes? Steal from his grandma? Or return your calls? How did you divine that in 30 seconds? Or does that not matter for your relationships?

Worse, once you bias things by an initial snap-judgement, cognitive dissonance sets in. Meaning, you will stick with the first decision despite contrary evidence until you get burned. How many guys have seen this with women over and over again? Always stuck on the guy who with a smooth line ... why doesn't he call you back? Isn't he the one? WHere could he be? Not possibly meeting another soulmate with his excellend body language....

The reason it bugs me is that in order to play this game an average guy or INTJ has to learn the player's skills. Once you do, you can then pickup women easily enough who "just know" you are the one. But they only think that b/c I held the eye contact a little longer (body language), ignored her and chatted up her girlfriend instead (jealousy), made fun of something trivial about her (neg hit -- shows status), used some light touch (kino -- arousal), and then made her ask for my number (reversal -- now she pursues, and this makes her think she likes me more, based on cognitive dissonance).

I played this game for awhile in my 20's, and in the end, I could not respect the women that constantly fell for it. They were just relying on biological urges rather than brains. I was never "the one". They knew nothing about me. I could have been a serial killer. But I was in fact just a guy who learned a skill and practiced a bit.

In the end, as an INTJ, I'd rather have the woman who took the time to learn something about me, realized we had something in common, and took it from there. Leave the instinct for the barnyard animals. But that rarely happens these days. Most people are seeking instant gratification, and they enable it by deceiving themselves about their intuition. Put this intuition to a test, though, and it reliably fails -- much like most modern marriages.

[Vortex]

I wish there was a drug that would just kill of sexual desire. Its seriously annoying.

I tried the dating game a bit, got burned pretty hard, and I've just decided to ignore it for a while. For the life of me, I can't judge women I'm interested in (literally. I can't tell jack about them) and its screwed me every time. The natural irony, of course, is that I've wound up hyper, maybe not sensitive, but vigilant and constantly look for signs of rejection or betrayal. Its not attractive and I know it, but whatchya going to do?

While I develop crushes annoying easily (give me back my free will damnit!), I've decided, given the above, its in my own best interest not to peruse any for the time being. If a girl is interested in me (heaven help her), she can make the first move. Its still not 100% sure shes going to end up playing me, but I figure the odds are a hell of a lot better by forcing her to initiate. While this has killed off any dating, and made the chances near zero, its easier to ride out than the roller coaster that is the dating game.

Oh, and I have no interest in "casual" dating or one night stands. I personally feel its degrading jumping into bed with someone I barley know and who doesn't know me at all. There are much easier ways to take care of needs than going on dates. I personally find sex to be an exclamation point to a relationship, not the starting point for one.

My $0.02