[INTJgal]

Hey. I'm new to the board. Totally familiar with MBTI, though.


These Are The Facts:
*I'm an INTJ female
*I'm not socially awkward, but totally socially confident (these skills took years of study, but I swear they exist!)
*I have learned to dress so that I accentuate my physical assets in a respectful but attractive manner (I'm very fit, so this helps)
*I never get asked out

So, I'm trying to figure out why this is. I've used my extreme deductive skills to realize that perhaps staying home more weekends than I go out is a contributing factor, but what else am I doing that is detracting from guys wanting to ask me out?

Girls, can you weigh in with personal experience? Successes, failures and what you did/didn't do?

Guys, can you weigh in with insight as to what might be the issue with a reasonably physically attractive INTJ female never getting asked out?

Any and all discussion on the related topic is welcomed.
Thanks!

[Firelie]

I think it takes a certain type of man to be attracted to an INTJ female, and most of the men you'll find when you're "out" are probably not the right kind.

(The following may seem stereotypical, but I don't intend to mean that every guy is the same way, so keep that in mind that if you're a guy and you're reading this.)

I think a lot of the guys out there have an unconscious desire for a "weak" woman (ie: stereotypical woman that is smaller, pretty, overly emotional, bad at making decisions, maybe mentally a bit slower, etc etc) because it makes them feel more "manly" when they have someone to depend on them, someone to protect, someone to possess.

INTJ women obviously won't fit the bill there. That's not to say it's hopeless to find a man, though. There are plenty of men that find our type refreshing (unfortunately in my case, they usually tend to be far older than I want...). My problem has been that I usually end up with the kind of guy that is looking for someone to control him, and I find that revolting. Heh. Oh well, what can you do?

[Paul V]

Confidence, coped with intelligence, sees right through 99% of the schemes normal guys use to try to get in your pants. They can tell almost right away. If you are desperate to get a date, then play dumb. Pretend you don't have a clue of what they're doing, or what their intentions are.

If you're not, then wait for an intelligent guy to show up. I strongly believe you'll be much better off in a relationship with him than with a regular guy.

[rwyatt365]

OK, I'll weigh in from the male perspective.

I think that Firelie has a valid point when speaking about the qualities that many men look for in a woman. It's a societal stereotype that many (if not most) men adopt as their own. It's the old "Me Tarzan, you Jane" model that has been promoted by cultures (and now, primarily western culture) for millennia. I would hazard a guess to say that the basic "blueprint" for this tendency is encoded in our genes.

INTJgal, since I don't know you I'll have to generalize based on things written in the forum by other INTJ females, and an attempt to extrapolate from you own mindset. But…

I would guess that you are fairly independent and confident in your dealings with people in general. You've stated that you are socially adept, and physically attractive so those things are not barriers to attraction. My guess is that men are somehow intimidated by your "presence". That innate male desire for submission and emotionality from a female partner steers the guys to "easier targets". Think of the car thief in a car lot. He will choose the most desirable car to break into, but will select the car that presents the least trouble and affords the quickest get away. You may be a Ferrari in the midst of Nissans, but if your doors are locked and your alarm is blinking the thief will choose the unlocked Maxima instead.

But, as Firelie also said, there are some "thief's" out there that relish in the challenge in order to get the Ferrari! But such aficionado's are few and far between. The question is, are you willing to wait for the purist, or settle for the amateur?

BTW – it's not your fault, most men are pigs, or dogs, or (choose your favorite disgusting animal) that will do whatever they can to get what they want for as little effort as possible. An INTJ woman takes "effort" to get to know (as do INTJ men). Find someone that is up to the challenge that you are!

[Firelie]

Ooh, good analogy, rwyatt.

What he said! There was a guy I knew a few years ago that thought he was hot shit because all of the women he knew would at least make out with him (if not sleep with him). He told me one time that I was intimidating to him because I consistently ignored his attempts to hit on me. I may have been too young to know why I behaved the way I did, but I took his comment as a compliment. :D

[Edit: I guess it was more than a few years ago...this was when I was 18]

[Tarrick]

I dunno about the "normal" male perspective, I ain't normal, but I would guess that Paul and Rywatt are about right. Normal guys are freaked out by abnormal girls because the expect social and psychological roles are not set as they normally are. This probably is especially true of guys that "have experience" with girls, and thus aren't seeing what they normally expect to see.

[Santana28]

I have the same problem... its kind of interesting when i think about it. Its like i have this natural "intelligence" filter
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Normal guys don't even bother hitting on me. I work with mostly guys in their younger 20s... we joke around and flirt, but they just seem to naturally look at me differently than they do my other female coworkers. They treat me more like "one of the guys." Only two of whom have actually flirted with me..one was some sort of I/J combination, and the other was an E/J combination.

To be honest, i have never "dated" in all my life - but i've also never been alone for very long at all. I seem to attract interesting, intelligent NTJ types and after a while i've always ended up getting somewhat involved with them seemingly spontaneously. When i'm out alone, i get the occasional looks but no one ever approaches me. I'm not bad looking - but I come across as very independant and secure. I don't "look" as if i'm out there trying to hook up. I don't dress up, because that is essentially bait for people who value looks above all else... I don't wave the bait, and i don't get the bites. But instead, i get other intelligent, independant guys who notice i stand out from a mile away, while hiding
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I like it.

[Solaris]

Being an ENTJ is no easier. I am around guys constantly in the activities I pursue, and most jobs I've held. Granted, I was in a committed relationship until a year ago. Then, I sort of had it in my head that I would wait a year before dating again, so as not to do something stupid and go too far in the opposite direction from the type of man I was with last. However, I'm very out of touch with how to date in the adult world (I was in college last time I dated). I used to detest the idea of dating my friends, however, I see its value as an adult. I can't let go of the fear of losing friendships I value though, so I'm kinda stuck. There's one friend I'd like to discuss such things with, but I'm still too afraid to do so. (yeah yeah, I know I'm an E and not "supposed" to be afraid of this sort of thing, but refer to the fear of losing important friendships....so few people "get" me, who I also "get" that I don't want to ruin that)
Buh.

Incidentally, I feel it's just fine for a woman to ask out a man. I think a strong, intelligent man would not be threatened by this, and if he is, he won't end up liking who I am in the long run anyway.

I honesetly don't know if I attract a particular type. I know I attract guys who would just like to get in my pants because they like the fit, redhead with intelligence and confidence that they see before them. But I don''t want something so shallow.

[Tarrick]

If approaching an INTJ is like approaching a hardened bunker, then is approaching an ENTJ like approaching a tank?

[BloozeGit]

	Originally Posted by rwyatt365 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	BTW – it's not your fault, most men are pigs, or dogs, or (choose your favorite disgusting animal) that will do whatever they can to get what they want for as little effort as possible. An INTJ woman takes "effort" to get to know (as do INTJ men). Find someone that is up to the challenge that you are!

I take offense at that! I like dogs...

Guess everyone else so far has made the point that most "player" guys would pass, and that's probably a good thing if you consider the long run.

From a male perspective, highly attractive women present more of a psychological barrier to the average guy because they seem more likely to be taken already or high maintenance (or both). Especially INTJ males, being the more analytical sort, are probably going to rationalise in all sorts of ways and come to the conclusion that the potential consequences of asking you out are too life-threatening to even consider.

You never know, there might be some average guy out there still rationalising about the thought of asking you out who just needs something to push him over the edge (for the sake of discussion lets not consider courage-enhancement supplements in liquid form). This sounds silly but if you think there's anyone who might fit this category, perhaps they just need a sign to let them know you're looking to go out. And no, we males (especially INTJ) can't tell if you're single and available by the way you walk, hold your bag, flick your hair, sip your tea or (insert mundane daily activity).

Or...




...you could just ask him out.

[Jennywocky]

	Originally Posted by Tarrick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If approaching an INTJ is like approaching a hardened bunker, then is approaching an ENTJ like approaching a tank?

*stares in wonder*

You'd approach an ENTJ?!

(reminded of Tienneman Square)

[Santana28]

	Originally Posted by Tarrick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If approaching an INTJ is like approaching a hardened bunker, then is approaching an ENTJ like approaching a tank?

My ENTJ friend is a complete social butterfly - on his own terms. Many times he will be in the middle of a crowd of people, but totally "to himself." If he doesn't want to talk to people he goes to the side of the room or somewhere off to himself. But then he seamlessly jumps right back into crowds of people and becomes the center of attention again. Its really weird. Where as myself, i am okay with being in the middle of a crowd of people, i still prefer to stay off to the side by myself and i never make a point of going out of my way to be social. Its funny because we kind of met by being the only two people hiding off to the side of a room... if you know what to look for, you can find us
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oh yeah... and i coudln't ever be the center of attention even if i tried. LOL. I have. It just doesnt work for me for some reason.

[rwyatt365]

	Originally Posted by Jennywocky To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	*stares in wonder* You'd approach an ENTJ?! (reminded of Tienneman Square)

It's obviously a highly theoretical scenario. And only with appropriate protective gear.

[Solaris]

	Originally Posted by Tarrick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If approaching an INTJ is like approaching a hardened bunker, then is approaching an ENTJ like approaching a tank?

LOL

Well if I'm a tank and INTJs I know are bunkers, then what better match?

However, another perspective of your analogy (which is oddly apropos), is that both a bunker and a tank are "hard, cold" objects. What everyone forgets is that both hold mortal humans inside. Plus, how in the hell do you tell if a bunker or a tank is friend or foe??

[Santana28]

	Originally Posted by Solaris To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	LOL Well if I'm a tank and INTJs I know are bunkers, then what better match? However, another perspective of your analogy (which is oddly apropos), is that both a bunker and a tank are "hard, cold" objects. What everyone forgets is that both hold mortal humans inside. Plus, how in the hell do you tell if a bunker or a tank is friend or foe??

not to mention, the bunker is the base and the tank is the one sent forth to overcome the opposition
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i like this analogy.

[Solaris]

Originally Posted by Santana28 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My ENTJ friend is a complete social butterfly - on his own terms. Many times he will be in the middle of a crowd of people, but totally "to himself." If he doesn't want to talk to people he goes to the side of the room or somewhere off to himself. But then he seamlessly jumps right back into crowds of people and becomes the center of attention again. Its really weird. Where as myself, i am okay with being in the middle of a crowd of people, i still prefer to stay off to the side by myself and i never make a point of going out of my way to be social. Its funny because we kind of met by being the only two people hiding off to the side of a room... if you know what to look for, you can find us To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. oh yeah... and i coudln't ever be the center of attention even if i tried. LOL. I have. It just doesnt work for me for some reason.

Wait, so why aren't you dating this guy?

Of course, I can throw this right back at myself. I just thought I'd ask though.

[Tarrick]

	Plus, how in the hell do you tell if a bunker or a tank is friend or foe??

True. And the answer is their IFF of course.
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(Identification Friend or Foe).

[Santana28]

	Originally Posted by Solaris To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wait, so why aren't you dating this guy? Of course, I can throw this right back at myself. I just thought I'd ask though.

uh... we did. we were friends for 3 years until he kissed me completeley out of the blue one day. i was completely oblivious to the fact that he was interested in me that way... i wrote it off as impossible (as similar as we are, we lead COMPLETELY polar opposite lives).

Basically, he's terrified of commitment. He's one of those manipulating serial dating guys... its all a game to him. Then he pretty much fell head over heels for me. Freaked out. "Never wants to see me again, ever." Actually, tomorrow i will be seeing him for the first time in almost 2 years. He invited me (through someone else) to his next show (he has a band). Should be interesting to say the least.

[Solaris]

Originally Posted by Santana28 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

uh... we did. we were friends for 3 years until he kissed me completeley out of the blue one day. i was completely oblivious to the fact that he was interested in me that way... i wrote it off as impossible (as similar as we are, we lead COMPLETELY polar opposite lives). Basically, he's terrified of commitment. He's one of those manipulating serial dating guys... its all a game to him. Then he pretty much fell head over heels for me. Freaked out. "Never wants to see me again, ever." Actually, tomorrow i will be seeing him for the first time in almost 2 years. He invited me (through someone else) to his next show (he has a band). Should be interesting to say the least.

You win the weird Meg Ryan Movie Moment. I thought I had that award clinched with somebody I know, but wow. Maybe he's...grown up now? Good luck, I do hope it goes well, it sounds like you two go well together if he could get his shit together.

Being an ENTJ, I can say that sometimes I have manipulated people because I could. Sometimes I don't realize it, sometimes I do. I don't actually like to do this, but if a particular ENTJ thrives on power (I don't), then I could see how this behavior would develop.

[Solaris]

	Originally Posted by Tarrick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	True. And the answer is their IFF of course. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (Identification Friend or Foe).

Except both wait for the other side to answer, fearing getting blown to bits. :/

[Santana28]

Originally Posted by Solaris To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You win the weird Meg Ryan Movie Moment. I thought I had that award clinched with somebody I know, but wow. Maybe he's...grown up now? Good luck, I do hope it goes well, it sounds like you two go well together if he could get his shit together. Being an ENTJ, I can say that sometimes I have manipulated people because I could. Sometimes I don't realize it, sometimes I do. I don't actually like to do this, but if a particular ENTJ thrives on power (I don't), then I could see how this behavior would develop.

yup, ding ding ding... we have a winner.

Actually, 3 weeks ago we were both at the same concert. The entire night he avoided me like i had the black plague - it was funny watching him try to get past me without me seeing him all night. I was just there to have a good time and if he didn't want to see or talk to me then i wasn't going to push it. Well, just when i thought i wasn't going to talk to him - at the end of the night he comes up behind me, touches my side, smiles and raises a beer to me. I mean, i totally freaked out. I was speechless - blew all my plans for the night to pieces. I didnt even say anything...i just nodded.

2 days later, i get an invite through someone else to his next show - specifically, by name.

I really have no idea whats going to happen... hes quite possibly the only person i have ever met who can mess with my head...

Yeah - he needs to grow up. And yes, he gets a power trip on messing with people. I think he thinks i'm immune to his games... he doesn't realize the extent that he actually gets to me... i play it too cool
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Well, usually.... until 3 weeks ago...LOL

[Kfbr]

Seems to me that most guys are afraid of confident and intelligent women, at least I know my friends are. My last long term relationship ended back in the summer and it was because I couldn't really hold a conversation with her without having her get defensive and feeling like I was attacking her. I wasn't, I just wanted to know how she thought about things.

Confident and intelligent women are ridiculously hot, but even as a fellow INTJ I can see the barriers from a mile away and am sometimes intimidated myself. I'd much rather wait for the right person than to just be with someone because there's nothing else to do, so don't worry!

[Gabrielle]

My personal experience?

Apparently I'm "intimidating". Not in "rawr I'm a dominatrix and I'll whip you in black leather suit" type, but my height (5'9" is kinda tall-ish? I never thought so), the fact that I model (or modeled, because that was in the summer), I'm in medical school, and I'm pretty knowledgeable in both the arts and sciences makes me look like this person who'd stare at the guy and say "ew! heck no!". It never occurs to them that I might ACTUALLY be interested in them.

That, and the fact that I SUCK at reading signs. Every single one of them that I will talk about actually had to say these words "I'm attracted to you". Otherwise I'd have gone my merry way, just thinking "oh, they just want to be my friend".

There are four males who have approached me in my life. The first one was my debate partner. He is a genius, good looking, and tall. For some reason he approached me then backed out. To this day I haven't figured out why.

The second modeled, goes to Oxford, is from a good Oxford family, went to Eton. We went out (he happened to know exactly which buttons to press... he asked me out with "Fix You" by Coldplay, which is one of my favourite songs). Unfortunately we were still in high school, and then he went back to UK to go to uni. Then he went a la liberal extreme with sex and alcohol. Things kinda fell apart from there.

The third IS a model. He's cocky. He looks uber good (too bad he's kind of brainless apart from how to seduce women). He has NEVER had a female say no to him before (except me). But obviously he's really confident with himself.

The fourth is a computer hacker. He had dated models before. Due to the age difference (he's 21, I'm 18, I REALLY don't see the problem here but oh well), he backed out.

I'm guessing that guys with overflowing confidence like INTJ women, because they know they can handle us... but alas, most guys aren't that confident. Therefore they go for more timid women.

Dunno. I haven't had a functional relationship before. But I seem to attract older men (not THAT old, like 4 years maximum).

If guys don't approach you and you want a relationship, you'd have to approach them. And even then most likely you'd get rejected (personal experience). But who knows? If you don't take a shot you'll never score.

Someone once said to me, "the more girls fall in love, more beautiful they become. The more they cry, stronger they become". I always remember those words when I start liking a guy and I get my hopes dashed. I'd rather try and crumble than be timid and never crumble (and god knows how many times I've crumbled), because I'd rather be able to love than not be able to love at all.

Remember, those who love are MUCH stronger than those who are loved.

[Headstrong]

Originally Posted by rwyatt365 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

OK, I'll weigh in from the male perspective. I think that Firelie has a valid point when speaking about the qualities that many men look for in a woman. It's a societal stereotype that many (if not most) men adopt as their own. It's the old "Me Tarzan, you Jane" model that has been promoted by cultures (and now, primarily western culture) for millennia. I would hazard a guess to say that the basic "blueprint" for this tendency is encoded in our genes. INTJgal, since I don't know you I'll have to generalize based on things written in the forum by other INTJ females, and an attempt to extrapolate from you own mindset. But… I would guess that you are fairly independent and confident in your dealings with people in general. You've stated that you are socially adept, and physically attractive so those things are not barriers to attraction. My guess is that men are somehow intimidated by your "presence". That innate male desire for submission and emotionality from a female partner steers the guys to "easier targets". Think of the car thief in a car lot. He will choose the most desirable car to break into, but will select the car that presents the least trouble and affords the quickest get away. You may be a Ferrari in the midst of Nissans, but if your doors are locked and your alarm is blinking the thief will choose the unlocked Maxima instead. But, as Firelie also said, there are some "thief's" out there that relish in the challenge in order to get the Ferrari! But such aficionado's are few and far between. The question is, are you willing to wait for the purist, or settle for the amateur? BTW – it's not your fault, most men are pigs, or dogs, or (choose your favorite disgusting animal) that will do whatever they can to get what they want for as little effort as possible. An INTJ woman takes "effort" to get to know (as do INTJ men). Find someone that is up to the challenge that you are!

I agree. Men are most likely intimidated by you.

Hey rwyatt365, ease up on the Maximas! I have one but it's always locked and the security light blinks 24/7. :-P Kinda like me!

[Charlie Mc.]

I often feel that very attractive women are out of my league. That being said, I love women who are intelligent and independent. I have often said, I don't want a woman who needs to be with me, I want one that can be happy with herself, but chooses to be with me. In some of my best relationships the woman has made the first move. This is good for me because I, like most people on this board seem to be, am completely clueless when it comes to reading signs of attraction. INTJgal, speaking from my perspective if you see a man who you find attractive and interesting ask him out. It may be that he would love to go out with you, but figures you wouldn't be interested in a guy like him.