[Plum21]

I am frustrated

with normal people

I am frustrated with anyone who say there is a right way to do things...I am frustrated with people who say "you are wrong" with no authority to say they are right. much of this comes from societal norms...things we are taught to understand as truth but are not true

I am breaking away from this because I see it as an institution to keep society in order, and to oppress people. This is binding and it hinders growth.

certain norms I've experienced in my environment:

you must go to college to have a happy life

money is really important

people deserve respect/trust even though they have done nothing to earn it

Christianity is about judging and Christians are judgmental people

adults are right. kids are however always wrong

it matters what clothes you buy

people in tribes in Africa are not happy because they are poor or don't have education

if you have a different opinion than something then one person must be wrong about the issue. if one thinks differently, they are bad...while the other person is good.

God judges and condemns rather than encourages uplifts...God is angry and not compassionate and loving

How do these norms help us be ourselves and who we truly are? life is different for everybody and I think everyone has a right to their own opinion...but it seems this norms at times make it more difficult for people to say how they feel. On issues I get frustrated because people act as if they know what I'm going through and who I am when in actuality, they are not an authority on what I'm going through...and neither are societal ideas. one can say "this is how to do it. this is normal" but is it necessarily right? does it make sense for every situation or does it just get the problem to "go away, and be solved." is it just something else that is telling us we can't do or be who we want to be because someone else doesn't approve? I don't want to be told what to do. I think everyone should be able to be free to do what they want to do and using societal norms are dumb because they are not truthful much of the time...and they are not helpful...it's just normal to hear the and think that there is no other way to be or do. I can't stand society...it generalizes and that is judgmental!

I do not want to be a part of an institution (society) which thinks there is an answer for everything- sometimes there isn't a way to know

[gadjitfreek]

The fact is...people suck.

[Rohsiph]

Spark that electric and redefine the entire field.

You won't be able to change the entire world all at once--but I bet you can change people's minds one at a time right now. Maybe more than one at a time after you've done it a couple times.

[Plum21]

	Originally Posted by Rohsiph To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Spark that electric and redefine the entire field. You won't be able to change the entire world all at once--but I bet you can change people's minds one at a time right now. Maybe more than one at a time after you've done it a couple times.

this is very inspiring. thanks

[cullenisacreep]

Humans are annoying beings. Woodland creatures are much more tolerable.

[Luthor Rex]

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	you must go to college to have a happy life

Really depends on what you want to do in life. Kind of hard to be a scientist without a college degree.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	money is really important

This is partially true. Money is intrumentally important. It is a measn to the end of acheiving what you want. Like that college education for that job as a research scientist.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	people in tribes in Africa are not happy because they are poor or don't have education

The quality of life in large parts of africa is piss-poor. Somolia doesn't look any better than when we left it in "Black Hawk Down". The Congo war... well go read about the Congo war, most women were not left un-raped in large parts of that area. Africa is basically a shithole.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	God judges and condemns rather than encourages uplifts...God is angry and not compassionate and loving

Depends on the flavor of religion you encounter.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How do these norms help us be ourselves and who we truly are?

They don't. That's not what they are designed to do.

[Plum21]

haha nice that's not what they're designed to do. i like it

[michael ingram]

I think your characterization of people's beliefs in God are off. Around here, if people believe in Him, he is seen as a very compassionate figure.

[Plum21]

	Originally Posted by Rohsiph To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Spark that electric and redefine the entire field. You won't be able to change the entire world all at once--but I bet you can change people's minds one at a time right now. Maybe more than one at a time after you've done it a couple times.

	Originally Posted by michael ingram To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think your characterization of people's beliefs in God are off. Around here, if people believe in Him, he is seen as a very compassionate figure.

i think that some people think of him that way if they believe in him in society.

[SongofSeptember]

	Originally Posted by Luthor Rex To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Really depends on what you want to do in life. Kind of hard to be a scientist without a college degree.

Yeah, but the norm itself is assuming that everyone wants to be a lawyer, a scientist, a doctor...

	This is partially true. Money is intrumentally important. It is a measn to the end of acheiving what you want. Like that college education for that job as a research scientist.

Agreed. All these sayings about how love is more important than money, how money will cause you to become greedy and corrupt... they may be true, but seriously, what kind of a miracle would you be to survive in a modern society without money? It has to be important to some degree.

	The quality of life in large parts of africa is piss-poor. Somolia doesn't look any better than when we left it in "Black Hawk Down". The Congo war... well go read about the Congo war, most women were not left un-raped in large parts of that area. Africa is basically a shithole.

Again, true, but I have a problem with the hypocrites who say things like "why are we spending so much money on this this and that when we could be helping others? People in Africa are dying because of this this and that..." Why is it always Africa, anyway? There are parts of Southeast Asia that are equally poor and disease-ridden. There also happen to be parts of Africa that are wealthy with perfectly good living standards. It seems that the lack of education to the general public on current events is causing "Africa" to be stereotyped this way.

	They don't. That's not what they are designed to do.

Interesting point.





SongofSeptember added to this post, 0 minutes and 49 seconds later...

But then again, nobody "designed" them to begin with. They're just there.

[Skatt]

The issues with Africa and SE Asia are due to the social norms too though. Superiority and dominance are the cause. Every person has the desire to feel important on some level. If the typical ideals came true and things like societal norms and 'evil' didn't exist, life would be boring. I personally wish that I could spend my whole life doing nothing but discussing things, making music, and sleeping. Apparently that's wrong, it feels right to me though. Society never made a place for me though, so I can't live life the way I want to without pissing people off. I have to find a way to capitalize on something and I don't want to do that. That is the biggest requirement of society though. Everyone must partake in capitalism even if they don't like it.

[zibun]

"Be the change you want to see in the world." said Gandhi.

[Luthor Rex]

	Originally Posted by SongofSeptember To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why is it always Africa, anyway?

Because no one feels bad for Sweden when their princess is this kind of hot:


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

	Originally Posted by SongofSeptember To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Interesting point.

Yes I thought so too...

[smashy]

I have a graduate degree in Sociology and that together with beeing an INTJ (rational thinking and deeply analyzing things) makes me a very critical person regarding society. For example, I'm aware that everything that is social (even the notion of God) is constructed by people. And it starts to be a social norm by the time people start repeating it decade after decade till no one knows where that came from but everyone acts the same way.

Of course a lot of social norms and patterns are ridiculous and annoying. But at the end of the day, I realize we need them in order to function properly while beeing a society. If we didn't have norms and rules everything would be a chaos and sometimes those rules protect us from stupid people. But, there are rules and rules...

You don't have to stick to all the rules, especially the ones about how people think. I don't give a damn to what others think and I even laugh at some ridiculous social norms, especially from people that don't question anything, they just accept it as it comes. I'm happy to question things and choose what works for me and doesn't. For example, beeing rich and having lots of money it's not the same as beeing happy. I know a lot of people that are loaded and they're extremely unhappy persons. Go to nice clubs, 5* restaurants doesn't make me happy, it makes me more happy to be walking in the mountain or watching a movie at home with my DH. So, forget about this established patterns that don't make sense to you and stick to what is natural to you and make you happy and let others do what they want as well.

[Skatt]

Originally Posted by smashy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have a graduate degree in Sociology and that together with beeing an INTJ (rational thinking and deeply analyzing things) makes me a very critical person regarding society. For example, I'm aware that everything that is social (even the notion of God) is constructed by people. And it starts to be a social norm by the time people start repeating it decade after decade till no one knows where that came from but everyone acts the same way. Of course a lot of social norms and patterns are ridiculous and annoying. But at the end of the day, I realize we need them in order to function properly while beeing a society. If we didn't have norms and rules everything would be a chaos and sometimes those rules protect us from stupid people. But, there are rules and rules... You don't have to stick to all the rules, especially the ones about how people think. I don't give a damn to what others think and I even laugh at some ridiculous social norms, especially from people that don't question anything, they just accept it as it comes. I'm happy to question things and choose what works for me and doesn't. For example, beeing rich and having lots of money it's not the same as beeing happy. I know a lot of people that are loaded and they're extremely unhappy persons. Go to nice clubs, 5* restaurants doesn't make me happy, it makes me more happy to be walking in the mountain or watching a movie at home with my DH. So, forget about this established patterns that don't make sense to you and stick to what is natural to you and make you happy and let others do what they want as well.

I have seen this perspective in me before many times. The people who challenge the status quo are important too. There has to be people on both sides of the fence for anything to work. People wouldn't know what they feel is right as easily if they didn't experience people doing things that they feel are wrong. If no one witnessed death, people would be more careless in preventing it. Utopia and anarchy are both impossible because there is always a need to contrast.
I think that many of the people here are on the side that challenges the status quo. I find it increasingly difficult to challenge as I develop more and more, but where I know I have the strongest argument, I find myself unable to hold back a lot of the time. Especially when it comes down to politics, religion, and certain societal norms. I still rock my mohawk to this day, not because I am rebelling or need attention. I have it because I like the way it makes me feel. It makes me feel strong and the discipline required to maintain it keeps me more scheduled. It's true that morning ritual does set the standard for the day. Without my hawk I have no need to concentrate on anything external in my day's preparation; everything is just motions otherwise. It seems a little silly maybe, but it's a perspective that isn't often considered when people see a guy with a mohawk. I admire people that show discipline outwardly, and I think that society should as well. I think that the hardest discipline to master is seeing perspectives and understanding the way that the people around you work through things. I'm straying around now though, so I'll leave it here.

[faedra]

And it gets all the more frustrating when it's taken for granted that one should not question these norms.

I've always wondered about the reasoning behind people exchanging obviously repackaged presents every time the holiday season rolls around. Honestly, all that does is make money for the wrapping paper industry, so doesn't it make the most sense to just lay it all on the table once and for all and get it clear that not giving a present doesn't necessarily connote selfishness but practicality? But Norms Must Not Be Questioned, It's Always Been Done This Way, of course.

Anyway, probably because a large percentage of the population are structured, traditional SJ's. Perhaps barely relevant here, but I've always wondered whether that's a (vicious
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
) cycle, and whether there's realistically any way of changing this anytime soon.

[Kuu]

Christmas trees bother me greatly. I have always refused to help set one up, I don't understand the point of the tree.

My mother always tells/used to tell me, "They're pretty, and it's tradition." "But why? What do they do?" Yeah, you try arguing that with an INTJ child. It's a pointless societal norm, trees during christmas.

When it's my turn to host Christmas in a few years I'm going to use a ridiculous tree, like a bonsai tree. Just to prove how ridiculous some of our norms are.

[Zzyber]

	Originally Posted by zibun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"Be the change you want to see in the world." said Gandhi.

I definately agree. If you dont like the surroundings that you are in then no matter how much you might feel uncomforatable doing so if it drives you to being an emotional wreck then you must do something to change the surroundings that you are in. Wether that be moving your surroundings or changing those in your surroundings.

[kaniff]

Yea, you have to learn how to take things with a grain of salt.

That is some upper level stuff though. To not be moved by things that can move you.

Yaknow?

[Deliberator]

You can't be frustrated by norms unless you care about what other people think. Realize that societal norms are based on people's opinions, and average people don't think that hard about their opinions.

I'm in a situation where I'm frustrated because people's opinions are being passed off as scientific fact. This frustration fuels me to learn about the subject, and work to gain credibility in the field. I'm channeling that frustration into something productive.

In college I frequently experimented with ways that I could challenge societal norms. Do enough of that and you'll realize how free you really are. You gotta do your own thing and prove that it can be done. It's an amazing feeling, and you are on the right track.

[Firebrand]

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	you must go to college to have a happy life

Unless you start a business which is your best chance of autonomy and freedom from being under some other establishment's thumb, your next best chance of having the financial freedom to do what you want with your life is college.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	money is really important

It's not the most important thing but it *is* fundamentally important as it's our primary means of bartering. You can live without love for instance but try living and having freedom to direct your life as you see fit without money. We usually call these people bums or hippies.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	people deserve respect/trust even though they have done nothing to earn it

Many people place a large premium on "social niceties" but I agree that these are simply facades. It's not like this in Germany just as an example. There trust must be earned is the more common rule.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Christianity is about judging and Christians are judgmental people

The basis of that religion is polarity between good and evil. When things fall into black and white some judgment needs to be made to put things into their proper box.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	adults are right. kids are however always wrong

The main difference between adults and children is that adults have acquired more preconceived notions through either their own self-brainwashing or the brainwashing of the environment they are in. With some more objective adults, what could be said more accurately is that they are more experienced. Experience can bring a degree of confidence as it ususally means you know through hard-earned effort. However there are many people that draw the wrong conclusions based on their experience.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	it matters what clothes you buy

It's an unfortunate reality that appearance says things about you. It can say things of a a more superficial nature but typically stereotypes have a basis in reality. They are not absolutes though which is where much incorrect stereotyping occurs.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	people in tribes in Africa are not happy because they are poor or don't have education

Life is definitely not easy for many of these people but it could be said that without the knowledge of the possibility of better living, there is no reason that they don't think they have it good or that their lives are in any way "not normal". Ignorance can be bliss. But probably not in impoverished areas of Africa.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	if you have a different opinion than something then one person must be wrong about the issue. if one thinks differently, they are bad...while the other person is good.

Many people have difficulty with agreeing to disagree. Objectivity is more common in T types who prefer logic. America is over 60% F types.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	God judges and condemns rather than encourages uplifts...God is angry and not compassionate and loving

Old Testament vs New Testament thinking.

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How do these norms help us be ourselves and who we truly are?

They don't as Luthor Rex stated. What they do is provide a template by encouraging compatible behavior. It's easy to understand things like you but it takes objective reasoning to understand things unlike you. One of the greatest fears of mankind is fear of the unknown, hence fear of the dark, fear of death, fear of differences, etc. There's safety in numbers and this is what they are designed to do.

[Tocsin]

	Originally Posted by Plum21 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am frustrated with normal people

For some reason, the first thing that came to mind when reading this was the image of Harry Dean Stanton telling a young Emelio Estevez, "... look at 'em; ordinary goddamn people. I hate 'em. See, ordinary people spend there lives avoiding tense situations... Repo man spends his life getting into tense situations." (paraphrased, I think)

As far as societal norms go, there is certainly a seemingly infinite amount of commonly held ideas, rules, or values that strike any intelligent person as absurd.

But then again, who can really say they reject all societal norms unless they also reject societal taboos against murder, pedophilia, necrophilia, cannibalism, besitality, and homosexuality... and I think its safe to say that there aren't too many people lurking here who harbor a hidden desire to kill a child and have homosexual sex with the corpse and then cook it for dinner... "and your little dog, too."

Some "societal norms" actually do seem sensible to accept (though I wouldn't count the common taboo against homosexuality as one of them.)

[Rohsiph]

Originally Posted by Tocsin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But then again, who can really say they reject all societal norms unless they also reject societal taboos against murder, pedophilia, necrophilia, cannibalism, besitality, and homosexuality... and I think its safe to say that there aren't too many people lurking here who harbor a hidden desire to kill a child and have homosexual sex with the corpse and then cook it for dinner... "and your little dog, too."

It's one thing to harbor a hidden desire--it's another thing to explore the concepts behind such desires outside of the wider lens of society.

I take it as what is the essence of aphorisms like "Struggling with the abyss" to explore objectively social taboos as you describe and make your own sense of them.

[Plum21]

Originally Posted by Firebrand9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Unless you start a business which is your best chance of autonomy and freedom from being under some other establishment's thumb, your next best chance of having the financial freedom to do what you want with your life is college. It's not the most important thing but it *is* fundamentally important as it's our primary means of bartering. You can live without love for instance but try living and having freedom to direct your life as you see fit without money. We usually call these people bums or hippies. Many people place a large premium on "social niceties" but I agree that these are simply facades. It's not like this in Germany just as an example. There trust must be earned is the more common rule. The basis of that religion is polarity between good and evil. When things fall into black and white some judgment needs to be made to put things into their proper box. The main difference between adults and children is that adults have acquired more preconceived notions through either their own self-brainwashing or the brainwashing of the environment they are in. With some more objective adults, what could be said more accurately is that they are more experienced. Experience can bring a degree of confidence as it ususally means you know through hard-earned effort. However there are many people that draw the wrong conclusions based on their experience. It's an unfortunate reality that appearance says things about you. It can say things of a a more superficial nature but typically stereotypes have a basis in reality. They are not absolutes though which is where much incorrect stereotyping occurs. Life is definitely not easy for many of these people but it could be said that without the knowledge of the possibility of better living, there is no reason that they don't think they have it good or that their lives are in any way "not normal". Ignorance can be bliss. But probably not in impoverished areas of Africa. Many people have difficulty with agreeing to disagree. Objectivity is more common in T types who prefer logic. America is over 60% F types. Old Testament vs New Testament thinking. They don't as Luthor Rex stated. What they do is provide a template by encouraging compatible behavior. It's easy to understand things like you but it takes objective reasoning to understand things unlike you. One of the greatest fears of mankind is fear of the unknown, hence fear of the dark, fear of death, fear of differences, etc. There's safety in numbers and this is what they are designed to do.

Everyone's responses are so amazing! I especially like this person's because I just connect with a lot of what your saying. i think we would get along well
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.






Plum21 added to this post, 1 minutes and 17 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Zzyber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I definately agree. If you dont like the surroundings that you are in then no matter how much you might feel uncomforatable doing so if it drives you to being an emotional wreck then you must do something to change the surroundings that you are in. Wether that be moving your surroundings or changing those in your surroundings.

very very good
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Daniel]

Originally Posted by smashy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have a graduate degree in Sociology and that together with beeing an INTJ (rational thinking and deeply analyzing things) makes me a very critical person regarding society. For example, I'm aware that everything that is social (even the notion of God) is constructed by people. And it starts to be a social norm by the time people start repeating it decade after decade till no one knows where that came from but everyone acts the same way. Of course a lot of social norms and patterns are ridiculous and annoying. But at the end of the day, I realize we need them in order to function properly while beeing a society. If we didn't have norms and rules everything would be a chaos and sometimes those rules protect us from stupid people. But, there are rules and rules... You don't have to stick to all the rules, especially the ones about how people think. I don't give a damn to what others think and I even laugh at some ridiculous social norms, especially from people that don't question anything, they just accept it as it comes. I'm happy to question things and choose what works for me and doesn't. For example, beeing rich and having lots of money it's not the same as beeing happy. I know a lot of people that are loaded and they're extremely unhappy persons. Go to nice clubs, 5* restaurants doesn't make me happy, it makes me more happy to be walking in the mountain or watching a movie at home with my DH. So, forget about this established patterns that don't make sense to you and stick to what is natural to you and make you happy and let others do what they want as well.

I agree that social norms help to the keep society intact. However I believe as well that social norms are evolving. Some are irrelevant nowadays, some are still effective. We need social revolutionists to constantly test the functionality of present rules. We need people you defend the old, but effective rules as well. Balance. In the end it's up to you to decide what works and what doesn't. Be critical.