[Anton]

I'm no expert, but for the past year I've made women my central focus in life. It was like a personal project of mine. I read "All you need is love and other lies about marriage", "How to succeed with women" and I got about halfway through "The game" before I got a little disgusted and had to put it down. I also did research online, talked to friends, mentors and experimented with different approaches until it finally started coming together.

I started getting it. I was actually approaching women, hitting on them and making them feel good. I came off as a confident, desirable and charming man. I went to the gym to look good, and spent time on the details of my appearance, groomed myself and focused my thoughts so that I felt in 'the zone'

In the end a girl tore my heart out. And then another. And finally just last month I got -really- hurt and decided to just take a step back from all this. I realized that I was focusing too much on a particular part of life and had forgotten the big picture. Everything else was in my peripheral vision, and I had made women and dating the central focus, the reason why I lived. Bad idea.

The whole reason I'm writing this though, is to get through to anyone who may have bought into the fallacy that you need a woman to be a man. You don't. I've learned from these mistakes, and despite the fun, sexual encounters, an even bigger problem envelops the entire thing. I am not a real man yet. What is a real man? Well it's what women want. If you can think about how many beautiful, attractive women you've seen, you might reach into the hundreds, maybe even thousands. But how many men have you met that had their whole lives together? Men that had total composure over themselves and really had it all together?

By simply focusing on getting my life together, by focusing on the bigger picture, by finding my path and sticking to it and not letting anything- especially a woman. distract me from getting what I want out of life. It's made me even more attractive to the opposite sex. In other words I'm beginning to learn how to grow up and be a real man.

Know what you want, why you want it, and what you have to do to get it. Be the center of your universe, because if you're looking to orbit around a woman and leech of off her to feel like a whole person, to feel energized and have reason and validation in your life, then you're instantly going to be unattractive to her. Focus on yourself first, get your life together and -then- just let them come to you. If you need a woman to feel whole, what's going to happen when she leaves you? She's going to tear your heart out. Just sayin'

[SimplyOtter]

Thank you for sharing this. It's always interesting to see the other half's point of view. I think you are right and it works both ways, all of us want to be with somebody who's not just economically but also emotionally and psichologically independent; this is the only way you can actually give something to each other, otherwise it's just "mutual secour".

As for having "composure" and looking as you you have your life together, I don't know if women are better than men... actually, often, at least on the surface, because men are not "allowed" by society to be emotional (which is crazy I think), it can look the other way round... but it's tricky, because that's just the surface.

I believe life is a matter of energy, once we learn to provide ourself that energy, we can share and love, otherwise we are just looking for something or somebody who can "feed" us of that energy...

You sound very honest with yourself, and that is the very first thing on this path i reckon. I'm sure from now on it will work out great!
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best wishes

[reb]

if you study deer and their mating habits, the way they relate to each other, i have always thought this would be a better model for humans than what we are doing. our 'massive forebrain' is not helping our relationships much, especially with lawyers and courts 'helping us'. lol!
reb

[moon]

In the other way, you can't be alone too. Woman forms a man of you. Don't be dissatisfied if you had a few bad realtionship endings. If true love primarly existed, it wouldn't be like that. I mean, you can't love someone with all your hart and be torn away, if you know that person about a month. That was maybe a hard crush. True love is formed very long, with lots of sharing, mutual committment and understanding. Anyway, it's a matter of risk. Yes, she may leave you and your relationship will end some day for sure. It's about what you give and what you get in return. Are you ready to give your all for a memories, experience, love, obscurity?

p.s. Nice avatar
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[Anton]

Women do help shape men, but one of the biggest mistakes a guy can make is to place too much importance on finding a woman. That's what I meant by looking at the bigger picture. Life is huge. It envelops many things. It's like a massive buffet, and the opposite sex is like a desert. Sure women are enjoyable and I look forward to being in a committed long-term relationsihp, but if I can't get laid at all in the next year. I can simply take care of myself anytime I want to
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I'm going to quote a guy named David Deangelo on what his opinion of a real man is to paint a clearer picture of what it is that I'm talking about.

What does a woman mean when she says she wants a "real man"? A real man is a universal desire among women. Women all over the world, all across all ages and incomes are looking for the same thing and they describe it in basically the same way. But what exactly is a real man, and why do they use these words and describe them in this way? What do they not want?

Well to begin with, I believe that they don't want a wussy. Women and especially attractive and desirable women who have choices are used to men chasing after them, kissing up to them and demonstrating that they believe the woman is a rare and valuable prize. When a guy calls too often, shares his feelings too soon or too much, tries to buy a woman's affection with gifts, dinners, favors and generally puts his own life, self respect and needs aside for a woman, he is a wussy. This is the opposite of a real man.

A real man has his own life together, he has his act together. Sure he'd like to find a beautiful, intelligent women to enjoy time with, but he doesn't need it. And when he meets and interacts with attractive women, he demonstrates in every little way that he's comfortable with himself and he's comfortable with women. He holds and carries himself like he owns the entire city he lives in.

When he makes eye contact with a woman, he doesn't look away instantly out of nervous self-consciousness. Instead he keeps looking as if to say "I see something that might interest me. Let me take a moment to consider it." He is cool and calm at all times. His movements are just a little slower then those of other men. Everything about him suggests that he doesn't need to hurry because things are going to work out the way he wants in the end anyway. A real man communicates with attractive women in a way that confuses and excites them at the same time.

Because he's so un-self conscious and he's not looking for a woman's approval, he says things that are totally unexpected. A real man isn't afraid to say what's on his mind, or even make fun of a woman because he feels like it. It's obvious that he's being who he is, and this easy grace and lack of insecurities about himself are magnetic. He's respectful, yet brutally honest.

He's not apologetic or overly eager to say he's sorry, especially because he knows how to handle his life in such a way that he doesn't create problems by being immature, late, dishonest or otherwise flakey. He's spontaneous, but responsible. He isn't afraid to speak his mind or have an opinion. He doesn't live his life to please anyone, parents, friends, and especially women. He never acts or communicates that he's a victim. A real man is what every women wants, but he's so rare that many women doubt that they'll ever find him.

David Deangelo was 33 years old when he said this and is an INTP.

[Autoptic]

Women want an ideal that'll give better than they do, so do men. The rest is a hodgepodge of instincts, delusions, and half-baked "plans" stuck in a feedback loop. Considering that most in the loop aren't particularly smart, and those that are tend to base they're judgments within the definitions made up by the more numerous that aren't, it's not surprising it doesn't go well. Consider that it was never really built to go well. It is mostly about trying to knock some girl up, while she uses that desire to string you along or at least to draw you in later, while she try to get knocked up by some other guy then stick you with the "bill". Most of this stuff is obsolete and won't simply mesh with anything intelligent.

[LionsPride]

Be careful you don't confuse what women think they want and what they actually want.

To compare. Not all women that men want to sleep with are the ones they want to marry. Some men realize this and can tell the difference between the foxy girl and the one they want to take home to meet their parents. Others never realize the difference and let their groin lead them around, trying to make relationships out of lust.

Women aren't any better at picking what they want to spend their life with and the guy that they just want their kids' genes from. The 'real man' you described is likely the latter. He's the genes winner, not the spouse. No woman wants to be in a 10 year relationship with a guy who doesn't say sorry or who doesn't show them they are appreciated by calling. Yah, the real guy gets the swoon, and some women marry him and live unhappily every after, but it's not the be all end all of dating.

I think you bought into some mumbo and tried to oversimplify. It's reinforced because you compare on the short term, real guy gets girl. The truth is if you looked at realtionships that last 10 years or more, the dynamic is different.

[INTJayW]

Originally Posted by Anton To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm no expert, but for the past year I've made women my central focus in life. It was like a personal project of mine. I read "All you need is love and other lies about marriage", "How to succeed with women" and I got about halfway through "The game" before I got a little disgusted and had to put it down. I also did research online, talked to friends, mentors and experimented with different approaches until it finally started coming together. I started getting it. I was actually approaching women, hitting on them and making them feel good. I came off as a confident, desirable and charming man. I went to the gym to look good, and spent time on the details of my appearance, groomed myself and focused my thoughts so that I felt in 'the zone' In the end a girl tore my heart out. And then another. And finally just last month I got -really- hurt and decided to just take a step back from all this. I realized that I was focusing too much on a particular part of life and had forgotten the big picture. Everything else was in my peripheral vision, and I had made women and dating the central focus, the reason why I lived. Bad idea. The whole reason I'm writing this though, is to get through to anyone who may have bought into the fallacy that you need a woman to be a man. You don't. I've learned from these mistakes, and despite the fun, sexual encounters, an even bigger problem envelops the entire thing. I am not a real man yet. What is a real man? Well it's what women want. If you can think about how many beautiful, attractive women you've seen, you might reach into the hundreds, maybe even thousands. But how many men have you met that had their whole lives together? Men that had total composure over themselves and really had it all together? By simply focusing on getting my life together, by focusing on the bigger picture, by finding my path and sticking to it and not letting anything- especially a woman. distract me from getting what I want out of life. It's made me even more attractive to the opposite sex. In other words I'm beginning to learn how to grow up and be a real man. Know what you want, why you want it, and what you have to do to get it. Be the center of your universe, because if you're looking to orbit around a woman and leech of off her to feel like a whole person, to feel energized and have reason and validation in your life, then you're instantly going to be unattractive to her. Focus on yourself first, get your life together and -then- just let them come to you. If you need a woman to feel whole, what's going to happen when she leaves you? She's going to tear your heart out. Just sayin'

Yup! Well said!

Went through the same thing a couple of years ago. Realized that I needed to become confortable in my own skin. This is exactly the difference between a boy and a man. This realization needs to happen, before you can grow up.

But in terms of healthy lasting relationships though, there is still considerable complexity.

You're a man now, great! Now try to find a woman among all the girls out there!

That too is difficult.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Anton To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm no expert, but for the past year I've made women my central focus in life. It was like a personal project of mine. I read "All you need is love and other lies about marriage", "How to succeed with women" and I got about halfway through "The game" before I got a little disgusted and had to put it down. I also did research online, talked to friends, mentors and experimented with different approaches until it finally started coming together. I started getting it. I was actually approaching women, hitting on them and making them feel good. I came off as a confident, desirable and charming man. I went to the gym to look good, and spent time on the details of my appearance, groomed myself and focused my thoughts so that I felt in 'the zone' In the end a girl tore my heart out. And then another. And finally just last month I got -really- hurt and decided to just take a step back from all this. I realized that I was focusing too much on a particular part of life and had forgotten the big picture. Everything else was in my peripheral vision, and I had made women and dating the central focus, the reason why I lived. Bad idea. The whole reason I'm writing this though, is to get through to anyone who may have bought into the fallacy that you need a woman to be a man. You don't. I've learned from these mistakes, and despite the fun, sexual encounters, an even bigger problem envelops the entire thing. I am not a real man yet. What is a real man? Well it's what women want. If you can think about how many beautiful, attractive women you've seen, you might reach into the hundreds, maybe even thousands. But how many men have you met that had their whole lives together? Men that had total composure over themselves and really had it all together? By simply focusing on getting my life together, by focusing on the bigger picture, by finding my path and sticking to it and not letting anything- especially a woman. distract me from getting what I want out of life. It's made me even more attractive to the opposite sex. In other words I'm beginning to learn how to grow up and be a real man. Know what you want, why you want it, and what you have to do to get it. Be the center of your universe, because if you're looking to orbit around a woman and leech of off her to feel like a whole person, to feel energized and have reason and validation in your life, then you're instantly going to be unattractive to her. Focus on yourself first, get your life together and -then- just let them come to you. If you need a woman to feel whole, what's going to happen when she leaves you? She's going to tear your heart out. Just sayin'

Preach on brother! I came to exactly the same conclusion about women and life in general, and amusingly enough it took me the same number of failed relationships as you, 3 to be precise. As you adaquetely put it, a woman being the focus for all your energy is neither healthy for yourself, nor is it a good thing if one intends to keep the relationship going as it is of course unattractive. No matter how you cut it, serious relationships at a young age especially, can do nothing but detract from the other important aspects of your life and require energy that can be put to better use either professionally, scholastically, or whatever the case may be. Only when you are stable in every other area is a relationship a good idea, imho. It boggles my mind when so many people decide to get married in their early twenties and whatnot, but hey what doesn't work for me may for them. I still date occasionally, more out of boredom and sexual urges, but i will certainly not get emotionally involved again without a long process of getting to know the girl extremely well.

[Avid]

You have to learn to stand alone before you can stand together.

*Nice post, was fun to read.

[Vastfnup]

I came to that conclusion some time ago. Unfortunately, I have become so good (and used to) being single that I am just now learning things that I have been neglecting for years with regard to attracting the opposite sex.

I have been trying my hand at internet dating. It is going rather slowly. I decided to make a second profile (now disabled) for eharmony today and see how consistent their personality profile was. It had me pegged as an emotional person, which I am not. Upon retaking the test, it said that I was very emotional! WTF! I am really beginning to wonder about the people that came up with their profiling mechanism. How can the other numerous personality tests I have taken correctly identify me as a chilly, robotic, computer and that site thinks I am a fuzzball! Perhaps I should create a third profile with the mindset of Ghengis Khan or Blackbeard to avoid that moniker!

[Deliberator]

This is a very good analysis I think. It seems hard for people of either sex to find that happy medium where neither person is 'above' the other. It's all about mutual respect, and having your own life setup first. It's very dangerous for anybody to expect that another person can make them happy.

[Jakalwarrior]

I agree. Who cares what those women want. If they are looking for a man who presents the perfect image of cool etc... leave them to the pickup artists who get layed and leave em. They deserve it. In the mean time try to find someone you don't have to change for. It's the only way you'll be happy long term anyway.

[Anton]

There's a slight fallacy in the idea "Just be yourself" look at it this way: "Just be yourself" was probably said with the intention of being true to yourself. But when used improperly it becomes a crutch to avoid doing things that may initially feel uncomfortable. Discomfort is a part of life. Accept it.

Initially to challenge this concept usually brings on the conviction that you're encouraging people to be "fake", to wear a mask or generally try to be something that they are not.

While it's essential that you stay true to who you are, it's still important to improve yourself or be the best that you can be.

There's a fine line that separates a hoax from making an effort to adapt.

[Rohsiph]

I'm indecisive whether to start a new topic or respond here . . .

I had a wild philosophical chat with a friend last night. About a third of our dialogue focused on relationships, women, expectations--much of what's going on here.

We reached a different conclusion. We agreed that something like this "real man" is what most women say they want. However, if this kind of ideal is what they really wanted, it would be harder to look around and find examples of terrifying, ill-founded relationships.

Most women, and most men for that matter, want to avoid the fear of being alone. When prompted to define the quirks and qualities they think they value in potential partners, of course they will spout a list of positive characteristics. Unfortunately, people with everything on the list are very hard to come by--and it's even harder to come by one who's single.

I've developed a cynical misogynistic attitude towards the "standard" (young) woman. This is because I am not lacking in any of the qualities defined by DeAngelo above, unless part of the equation is buying into the "man must always approach woman" tendency in Western society, yet can't for the life of me seem to find a partner. I've asked 'standard' women what they want in a man, and more than once she has basically described me without realizing it.

Maybe I deceive myself. Maybe I'm not as special as I like to think, and so women avoid me because the truth is there are better men. I want to ask for the benefit of doubt for just a few paragraphs--assume for a moment that my self-conception is accurate.

My friend and I questioned, solidly, why we have both had terrible ordeals with the "romantic" side of our lives. Considering the root of the standard person's desires, we worked on figuring out how we might define what we want.

We liked this:

"Love is two people looking in the same direction, enjoying every glance they share with each other."

That is: we're looking for a woman to share a mutual companionship with. Both of us are capable of living alone--indefinitely, even--believing that if a relationship lacks equity, then it isn't worth pursuing.

Most women (again, also most men) never self-reflect enough to align their perceptions and beliefs such that they can accurately say what they're looking for. This is a problem for people who are defined by questioning everything. Standard folk don't like having skepticism thrown at them . . . as such, even though I'm confident, honest, witty, intelligent, creative, etc., I'm incompatible with most women.

This is where we arrived: we're looking for something a lot different--and a lot rarer--than what the average person is after. It's an annoying dilemma and a depressing sentiment. Unfortunately, unless we want to submit to common culture, it's our reality.

It's a funny thing: that confident, honest, intelligent person everyone wants always ends up having very similar opinions and expectations as the person who dreams him/her up.

I don't like this idea of "real" men, as if there are, I don't know, "unreal" men, or maybe "not quite" men . . . it simplifies an importantly complicated problem. Does the "real" man question society's values? Does he pursue changing the status quo wherever it's outdated? Does he ignore popular taste in favor of finding flavors that are personally meaningful?

Can he justify his every aspect? If he can, will he do so whenever he is given a chance?

If he does all these things, most "real" women--understanding "real" as actually existing in empirical reality --won't like him.

[Jakalwarrior]

When you are adapting or trying to grow up into what you think they want isn't that line crossed? honestly though it is a huge gray area and to each his own. We are after all programmed with the ultimate goal of finding the best mate and reproducing. If you've found the path that offers you the most happiness along the way and are making the most of life, more power to you.

[SimplyOtter]

Rohsiph

I think the only thing you're missing in your very accurate reasoning is that attraction can't be explained rationally, as the sum of different factors.
Intelligence + honesty + wit doesn't mean automatically ATTRACTION.

If we are talking about attraction here, I think it's one of the most mysterious thing in human life, probably our genes could explain it better than us...

If we are talking about love, we should start a new thread, because nothing has been said about GIVING something to the other person, just what we would like to have, just as like we were chosing in a supermarket.

About the perfect "real man", I do agree with you; if such a man existed, I don't think I would want him. I'd love to have somebody to grow up with, if he's perfect already it would be a very unbalanced relationship as I'm not perfect at all.

[Rohsiph]

	Originally Posted by SimplyOtter To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think the only thing you're missing in your very accurate reasoning is that attraction can't be explained rationally, as the sum of different factors. Intelligence + honesty + wit doesn't mean automatically ATTRACTION. If we are talking about attraction here, I think it's one of the most mysterious thing in human life, probably our genes could explain it better than us...

You're right. I didn't mention much (anything?) about attraction.

And it's difficult for me to outright reject that attraction is something important to the idea I was trying to present last night.

I'm tempted to reject it because it's so often predicated on appearances. My annoyance with appearances is at the center of much of my misanthropic misgivings: it's easy to believe what you see is all there is, and since most tend towards whats easy that's what most believe in. Another icky cynicism.

	If we are talking about love, we should start a new thread, because nothing has been said about GIVING something to the other person, just what we would like to have, just as like we were chosing in a supermarket.

Here I think you're still right, but not as directly as before . . . my thought is, ideally, if we're talking about "women and dating," shouldn't there be a part of this that is about giving?

I know Western ideology prizes self-interest, and I'll grant that there's a segment that would suggest the "purpose" of dating is to reproduce and nothing more, but I can't help myself from trying to strive for something more.

Merely a list, like for this "supermarket," isn't going to say much. In the off-chance someone comes by and claims they're looking for inherently negative traits, I'm sure others will question him/her and the best conclusion would show a difference of opinion. That's not very interesting. Neither is finding out oh, here's someone who seems to eat more poultry, and here's someone who seems to eat more dairy (following the supermarket analogy).

I'm happy with moving forward in this thread, as I don't think any extreme leap has been made . . . but if Anton or a moderator would like to separate things, that's fine with me too
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	About the perfect "real man", I do agree with you; if such a man existed, I don't think I would want him. I'd love to have somebody to grow up with, if he's perfect already it would be a very unbalanced relationship as I'm not perfect at all.

It seems to come down to a terrifying bell-curve: the most virtuous, incredible, strong-willed people have as small a "dating pool" as those that are the least virtuous, etc. Even worse, those in the middle rarely ever get the slightest glimpse of how lonely it is at either extreme . . .

[Luthor Rex]

	Originally Posted by SimplyOtter To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Rohsiph I think the only thing you're missing in your very accurate reasoning is that attraction can't be explained rationally, as the sum of different factors. Intelligence + honesty + wit doesn't mean automatically ATTRACTION.

Attraction is not conscious, but it certainly is a logical process that can be explained. For example we know as a fact that you can smell your genetic compatibility with another person and if you are compatable it will turn you on.


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I'm too sleepy to find more for you right now.

[Firebrand]

The best advice I've ever seen is from the user "Parallel" :
"Dude. Fck self help books. Just be completely un-embarassed and un-apologetic of who you already are without, of course, being an asshole or douchebag and don't try to look too hard for the right girl and it'll all come to you."

Looking back at my life, this has always been how I've gotten/attracted the best women for me to date. When I went to far away from the person I naturally am, I attracted women who did the same thing to me as they did to you.

[volk]

I came to think of a good analogy to all this: Living your life for the purpose of searching for a woman is like working on a project for the sole purpose of getting paid.

[ragavpayne]

I will wholeheartedly agree with the thread starter about his discovery of what charms women. From my own recent (a matter of the past few days) experience, I've figured it works the same way for both men and women. We like those from whom we can get and give...not just give.

I'm a freshman and being the INTJ I am I've almost never focused on girls before. But I wasn't being very approachable either; so, I've had little experience with girls. However, upon landing in college, I figured I needed some emotional and sexual satisfaction. But, I didn't really look for girls. I just stopped being unapproachable. I instantly noticed attraction from girls from all around. Then I found this one girl in Freshman english composition class. She was most attractive, quite smart, unique, feminine, sexually attractive etc. But, I didn't care to pay much attention to her...not until she started glancing at me, smiling at me, being jealous of the girls I was talking to etc. She even started being noticable in class...coming up with smart and quirky responses etc. I pretty much ignored all her glances, smiles etc. But, she started lingering in my mind. One day, I started a conversation with her right after class and I found her very welcoming...she asked me for my contact information etc..in our very first conversation. I started liking her and was prepared for emotional commitment. She WAS quite lovable. Then the next time we met after class, she asked me out. She wanted to go to my room, I said "um yeah...perhaps we could watch a movie in my room"...then she said "or we could go to the theatre this weekend"....we both agreed. Then I started to really like her. I sent her messages that conveyed my excitement for the day out. Later, hours before the movies, I got this message saying she has to cancel the movies because her family wanted to spend time with her. <I don't know how true that is>. I just sent her a message showing my disappointment. Then the next day, (which was yesterday) we met at class and she wasn't apolegetic in the least. She didn't even bring up the subject until I started it. She was kind of apolegetic after that...but I said "well, its ok..we can go out some other time can't we?"...and she said "let's see...I'll be at work on weekdays and I'll be out of town this weekend" and then she went off on tangents on where she'll be this weekend etc. And then unlike our previous meetings, she didn't even stay long. She was in a hurry. I was quite confused. Right after that, I sent her this message:-

"Erin, I really like you for various reasons and I've been thinking of you a lot and I want us to be more intimate. But, I'm not sure what you think of me. It is very confusing and I wanted to ask you this directly, but since you're quite busy with things, it looks like we aren't going to get a lot of time together. So, if its ok for you, I want to know what you think of me...because I just can't sustain unreciprocable feelings..."

She replied:-

"I am not interested in an intimate relationship, but wouldn't mind being friends...I enjoy talking to you and you seem like a neat person... : )"

<note the words "wouldn't mind"...denoting her instinctive perception of my genuine message being a request for her modest approval of my yearning for her..>

That was our last point of contact. My theory is that she did like me when we started out but it wasn't out of instinctive attractiveness. It was rather because unlike the other guys, I didn't approach her and tell her things like she was pretty etc. I didn't even notice her. So, being this pretty girl she was and being hit on countless times, she found me mysterious for not being like the other guys. It was at this point that I explored her and showed my genuine liking for her. And now, with the my mysteriousness dissolved, she is ready to move on...to get her next ego-satisfaction...or just get used by someone fake. <well, this could entirely be a bogus theory>

I don't know what might happen the next time we meet (tomorrow). But, most likely, I will be ignored, and she will try to make me notice her more by publicizing her feminine gestures and and feel extremely delighted with my watchful eyes and silent lips aimed at her. She probably wouldn't even stop after class to talk to me.

It does hurt a lot to be rejected in this manner after willing to think of her as someone special to me...especially after the childlike expression of my genuine emotions. But the good thing is that there are other girls who're aware of my confident, self-oblivious persona...and upon this very significant realization of the nature of attraction to the opposite sex prevalent in the west, I am 18 and not 33...





ragavpayne added to this post, 91 minutes and 30 seconds later...

And by the way, in no way am I implying that this nature of liking the one who is self-oblivious, confident and not tailing them is an explicit, conscious behavioral trend. It is rather an implicit, sub-conscious thing. I'm saying this because these pretty girls wouldn't really know how to explicitly calculate such things. They just get played by their instincts...So, if you wanna be a "real man" to most women, just start pleasing their instincts rather than their mnids..

[Rohsiph]

	Originally Posted by Firebrand9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The best advice I've ever seen is from the user "Parallel" : "Dude. Fck self help books. Just be completely un-embarassed and un-apologetic of who you already are without, of course, being an asshole or douchebag and don't try to look too hard for the right girl and it'll all come to you."

This is the approach I've had my entire life.

If your "completely un-embarrassed and un-apologetic" self is too different from the norm, it doesn't work.

	Originally Posted by ragavpayne To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But the good thing is that there are other girls who're aware of my confident, self-oblivious persona...and upon this very significant realization of the nature of attraction to the opposite sex prevalent in the west, I am 18 and not 33...

There are? Really? Why aren't you with one right now, then? Not to be a dick, but I know for myself a very important lesson I've crossed multiple times in college is that "thinking never makes it so."

Optimism isn't a bad thing . . . but never rely on false hope.

And by the way, in no way am I implying that this nature of liking the one who is self-oblivious, confident and not tailing them is an explicit, conscious behavioral trend. It is rather an implicit, sub-conscious thing. I'm saying this because these pretty girls wouldn't really know how to explicitly calculate such things. They just get played by their instincts...So, if you wanna be a "real man" to most women, just start pleasing their instincts rather than their mnids..

Yeah, I think you have the right idea . . . and I think it comes down to expectations: if you just want something pretty, be an animal. Speaking for myself, that's not something I can justify the desire for--regardless of how much I might subconsciously want a little 'harmless fun,' I'm all too aware of how I would feel like I'm betraying my core values if I ever went after such a thing.

I'd like for someone to convincingly argue a non-cynical answer, really--but I'm not sure such a thing is compatible with the society I live around.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Anton To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm no expert, but for the past year I've made women my central focus in life. It was like a personal project of mine. I read "All you need is love and other lies about marriage", "How to succeed with women" and I got about halfway through "The game" before I got a little disgusted and had to put it down. I also did research online, talked to friends, mentors and experimented with different approaches until it finally started coming together. I started getting it. I was actually approaching women, hitting on them and making them feel good. I came off as a confident, desirable and charming man. I went to the gym to look good, and spent time on the details of my appearance, groomed myself and focused my thoughts so that I felt in 'the zone' In the end a girl tore my heart out. And then another. And finally just last month I got -really- hurt and decided to just take a step back from all this. I realized that I was focusing too much on a particular part of life and had forgotten the big picture. Everything else was in my peripheral vision, and I had made women and dating the central focus, the reason why I lived. Bad idea. The whole reason I'm writing this though, is to get through to anyone who may have bought into the fallacy that you need a woman to be a man. You don't. I've learned from these mistakes, and despite the fun, sexual encounters, an even bigger problem envelops the entire thing. I am not a real man yet. What is a real man? Well it's what women want. If you can think about how many beautiful, attractive women you've seen, you might reach into the hundreds, maybe even thousands. But how many men have you met that had their whole lives together? Men that had total composure over themselves and really had it all together? By simply focusing on getting my life together, by focusing on the bigger picture, by finding my path and sticking to it and not letting anything- especially a woman. distract me from getting what I want out of life. It's made me even more attractive to the opposite sex. In other words I'm beginning to learn how to grow up and be a real man. Know what you want, why you want it, and what you have to do to get it. Be the center of your universe, because if you're looking to orbit around a woman and leech of off her to feel like a whole person, to feel energized and have reason and validation in your life, then you're instantly going to be unattractive to her. Focus on yourself first, get your life together and -then- just let them come to you. If you need a woman to feel whole, what's going to happen when she leaves you? She's going to tear your heart out. Just sayin'

David Deangelo should be the starting place if you're struggling. There's little exploitation or stupidity there, he's more about the psychology of attraction and how to get to the point where you're attracting a fair number of women without having to work at it.

Also, I would strongly not recommend an extremely active pursuit of any woman, especially attractive ones in their 20s. They will get a lot of aggressive attention and will quickly categorize you with a bunch of epic douchebags. Hot/Cold may work, or just interacting with them in a cool-cold manner will probably be more effective than an active pursuit; this isn't the 1950s and if they're attracted to you most will chase you.

Also, a "real man" is not whatever women want. Not even close. A real man is someone who acts like who he is and is not scared of that or looking for approval. Looking for approval will get you killed.


If you just want sex or short term stuff, Robert Greene is a good author for that as well. That said, his tactics are pretty brutal at times and are not for everyone. He's a fantastic author, but I'm just not comfortable "using" other people.

[Luthor Rex]

Originally Posted by Henry To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Also, I would strongly not recommend an extremely active pursuit of any woman, especially attractive ones in their 20s. They will get a lot of aggressive attention and will quickly categorize you with a bunch of epic douchebags. Hot/Cold may work, or just interacting with them in a cool-cold manner will probably be more effective than an active pursuit; this isn't the 1950s and if they're attracted to you most will chase you.

I have found this to be true with even moderately attractive women as well. Actually I've also found that during the "relationship" you can't get warm either. Just because you're putting your penis in her vagina doesn't mean you can decide to be a human and show that you care. The thing is, by selecting for men who are emotionally cold to them, women are only setting themselves up to be abused.

It's like there is some kind of mind virus they have all been infected with that makes them terminally stupid.

	Originally Posted by Henry To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Also, a "real man" is not whatever women want. Not even close. A real man is someone who acts like who he is and is not scared of that or looking for approval. Looking for approval will get you killed.

Yeah there's really no non-cynical explaination for what's going on right now in American / Western culture.