[Anderson]

I decided to start this thread as an addendum to the 50% for Everyone thread started by jikin.

Should education past a certain age be compulsory? If not, what would be an appropriate cut-off age?

I know there are educators as well as many educated people on this forum that could lend input.

Here is my position: From some of the other threads I have read, many of us have a low opinion of k-12 education as it stands. Recently I graduated high school--2004, 4th out of a class of 307, and can attest that public schools, and even many private schools, are intellectually and culturally toxic. I remember much of my high school years being forced to take "fluff" courses like health, pe, drama, etc. Lets not forget the social atmosphere of middle and high schoool. The pressure to fit in; the distractions of the "culture."

Also, where I live, much of the classroom instruction time was dedicated to jamming the state-sanctioned standardized test required for graduation down students' throats. Now if a school gets a certain percentage of students who pass, they receive funding. So, guess where their main interests lie? Producing educated citizens, or mindless cogs who can regurgitate the Pythagorean Thoerom (which by the way is something that should have been taught by 6th grade). Extracurriculars, I believe is another distraction. I believe that school is for academics, not athletics. Why do the two have to be joined at the hip? They are usually competing interests in terms of school budget and in the student's academic growth. I'm not calling for a ban for extracurriculars, but I do think that a separation of school and sports is in order. After all, the Rotary Club and the Boy Scouts are separate from the school.

I also don't think that general education should have to take 12/13 years to complete. If the aforementioned distractions were to be eliminated, there is no reason why anyone should not be able to have a high school level education by the time they finish 8th grade. The following years could be spent taking either accelerated, advanced placement, or community college or university level courses, depending on the student.

The reason that I felt compelled to start this thread, was a post that Monte had made in which he wrote that his children were homeschooled and far better prepared academically than if they would have been in public school as well as my own adventures/misadventures in the wonderful world of public ed.

Would really appreciate opionions!

[SShack]

I whipsaw back and forth so much about public education.

I'm a libertarian, but there was a time where public education was my one holdout. My argument with full privatization/parental authority was that children weren't "property," and so it wasn't acceptable to allow children to have to deal with the consequences of not getting any education at all if apathetic parents refused to engage their kids with the system. If parents weren't going to be responsible for their children, then who would be?

But since I've presented that argument, I've had enough horrifying experiences with people in charge of public education to answer "Okay, not these people." Which doesn't answer the question at all. I guess I think I want some sort of default public education for those who need it, but otherwise it should be a family choice.

Oh, and probably about 50 percent of public school education programs exist for the purpose of providing work for educators. I'm probably being generous about that percentage.

The good news around here is that local schools are waking up from the ridiculous idea that the point of public education is to prepare all students for college. They're resurrecting abandoned vocational programs and giving students the alternative of learning the beginnings of trades. Unfortunately, the state still hasn't woken up and is forcing more college prep requirements on students.

[Anderson]

Of course many of these "college prep courses" really don't prepare students for higher education. They may simply provide credit for those courses. I took almost nothing but APs my senior year in high school, and only did mediocre my freshman year in college. And it wasn't for a lack of trying or misplaced priorities (partying, etc.). My want is not to deprive children of education, but I often feel that that is exactly what public education is doing.

[Anderson]

Did I just kill my own thread?!
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[jikin]

LOL I'll give a try at binging it back to life.

I noticed the other day how often Pre-Kindergarten programs are being praised. I wonder how long it will be before these are also compulsory. They bing up the fact of how the students are much more advanced when they have that head start; what they fail to mention is that by 3rd grade it evens out and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.


As for older children, I do love the idea of sending more of them to vocational programs once they hit a certain age. Maybe high schools should have an entrance exam, as many colleges do. If you fail the exam you either go on to do a vocational program and learn a trade, or, if incapable of even that, go and join the workforce directly.

	Originally Posted by SShack To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh, and probably about 50 percent of public school education programs exist for the purpose of providing work for educators. I'm probably being generous about that percentage.

As sad as that sounds, it is also believable. I know many educators who, outside of a pretty piece of paper, don't actually seem qualified to be educators, yet we keep stuffing more of them into our wasteful systems.

[Anderson]

Well, I live in good ole Texas, and here, many educators are regarded as coach first, teacher second.

This is one reason that I believe in a separation of athletics and academics.

[Canegrande]

I was sent to both public and private schools. I think it was just for the socialisation because most of my learning came from household tutors. We weren't rich but my grandfather set up an alternative education for us because he distrusted institutionalised herd training. It wasn't until I got to college that I realised the value of a true education instead of mere institutionalisation. I'd read and discoursed on Plato, SunTzu, Macchiavelli, Immanuel Wallenstein and most of the economists and philosophers while most students were being introduced to them and heavily influenced by the views of the professors. Most of my professors were also miffed as I had my own views and didn't like attending class exept for tests and quizzes (except when a pretty girl struck my fancy). I realised then that this was more about training the mind what to think rather than how to think.
Now that I have children, I am repeating the same pattern with them with the exception that my wife and I are tutoring them ourselves. They get the advantage of interacting with and observing different kinds of people at school but they also learn how to draw out of their training, reading and experiences life lessons and principles (education - Lat. e-out ductere- to draw).

[zibber]

Good thread.

My objection to compulsory schooling (in the form of public elementary/high schools) is that children are not only taught the basic canon of (Western) thought and culture, but also, through constant, forced social interaction, molded nicely into citizens functional within this system. Who died and made this system king? It took me years to undo the damage done by these institutions, and now I am left playfully to wonder how nice it would have been to have received a more free "schooling" (guiding). I don't know if it's a "quarter life crisis" (
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), but this topic has been more and more interesting to me as I have started to play with the idea of offspring.

	Originally Posted by Canegrande To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	(education - Lat. e-out ductere- to draw).

Thank you for pointing that out; it's interesting to examine words like this etymologically. The current system seems to aim at putting a lot of things in rather than cultivation.

[NZPixie]

I was homeschooled. The school system over here has been restructured to have either academic or vocational streams, you make up your own mix of credits, you just have to get a set number of them. But to get into university you have to have the right ones. But it gives kids who don't want to go to uni the chance to gain skills that will help them and still get a school qualification. Because of this system I did not sit any exams and still achieved my school qualifications. I found learning good when I was younger but as soon as I hit my high school qualification years and had to follow the national standards I got over it really fast, especially as I had no one to compete with. But I think it was a good thing, although I would have preffered to go to school probably. Who knows at the end of the day if you you didnt do would have been better or worse.

[Deepdelver]

I have homeschooled my daughter from the beginning. She has thrived in her education. School and activities are seperate. Her violin lesson, play practice, and girls clubs are after school. I think homeschooling would be beneficial to every child, if their parents were willing to teach them.

[dragonsscout]

This thread reminded me of an
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I recently read. If you read this abridged version, try not to reject everything he says. He's extreme, but has some good points.

Anyways, yes. In short I think that there should be compulsory education of some sort. I don't know for how long though.

The K-12 educational system varies largely on school districts and teachers. A lot of it is luck of the draw. I was lucky and have had mostly good teachers. My high school was very large (~4000 students). Because of this, it seemed like a lot of the stereotypical social structures fell apart as they were too big to support themselves and the school was pretty spread out and decentralized.

Going to the essay (I'll summarize the good points). Education needs to stimulate critical thinking, which it often fails to do. Instead, it fills the students with facts and opinions that are useless or even harmful to the students and society. My own view is this, but much more moderate. Those facts sometimes come in handy. It's good to know the Pythagorean Theorem, but it's better to truly understand it and know how to develop it yourself.

[dandylion]

The system of compulsory general education is really flawed and really needs to be reassessed, but I think it's a good thing overall. I wouldn't want to be around people that didn't at least know basic things, but it seems that most people don't know and don't care anyway. Still, it's better they were in school than out on the streets not being useful. What exactly are people supposed to do if general schooling wasn't mandatory?

[Canegrande]

I agree that education, especially elementary to high school, should be compulsory. However, I do not believe that the current U.S. educational system provides the necessary background for truly critical thinking, nor, with increasing standardisation by national government, is any workable solution, in my humble estimation, likely to gain widespread application. Many schools that do provide an innovative and challenging curriculum, especially on the higher levels, are largely marginalised by quasi-governmental institutions such as accrediting bodies and other NGOs.
There are still good schools all over the U.S. on every level that allow and foster students to develop their capabilities. But, if the U.S. is going to remain a world leader for another generation, we must begin by preparing more young Americans for critical, analytical, innovative thinking for the challenges of dealing with (at the risk of sounding Rumsfeldian) not only the known unknowns but unknown unknowns as they arise.