[blackberry]

I need advice on a complicated problem... My mother has a strong ISFJ personality, and I have a strong INTJ personality. We love each other very much, but we just don't "get" each other. She makes all her decisions based on feelings and black-and-white morality, while I make decisions on logical reasoning and allow for moral "gray" areas.

For example: I have multiple medical conditions (type 1 diabetes, celiac sprue, asthma, fibromyalgia -- chronic widespread pain and insomnia, hypothyroidism, and possible chronic fatigue syndrome or some other mysterious illness) which have confined me mostly in bed at my parents' house. It's extremely annoying not to be able to work or continue at university at the present. It's boring and no more than just...annoying, but I don't feel terribly angry or upset about it or the least bit depressed by it. I know that my present problems will be resolved eventually with diligent problem-solving (though the sooner the better). Unfortunately, my mother thinks I should get angry and cry and "reveal my feelings" about "being sick and tired of being sick and tired" to doctors in order to get them to figure out what's wrong with me and how to treat me. As if making a hysterical scene will inspire doctors with knowledge and insight. Personally I think that is just ridiculously stupid and won't get me anywhere. Only doing substantial research and finding the right doctor in the right specialty will do the trick.

Another example: I'm a Catholic (by choice, based on extensive research), and my mother's an evangelical Christian and ex-Catholic. I never could understand the touchy-feely side of religion, while my mother literally lives by it. Instead I look at each doctrine and religious practice individually and with discretion about its practicality and sensibleness -- a position that my mother finds cold and indicative that I hate God. (Uh, no.)

Also, half the time I ask a question or bring up a topic of conversation that I think of as thought-provoking or constructive, I seem to press the wrong buttons and suddenly make her angry or upset, and I have no idea what I said that set her off.

All in all, I'm clueless how to deal with her (not to mention, so is she). How does an INTJ deal with such an emotional, unreasonable, but loving, caring ISFJ mother? Has anyone else dealt with such a situation? Thanks for your advice if you have any.

[ElstonGunn]

I get along pretty well with my ISFJ mother. Usually, the worst that happens is she thinks I don't mean what I say. "Can I make you a sandwich?" "No, mom, I'm not hungry." "How about some toast?" "I don't want anything to eat." "I have some potato chips in the cupboard." And so on. I take it as her way of caring. She's the type of person who shows that by doing things. She needs to be needed.

Your mother sounds more insistent than mine, though. Mine hates confrontation (she has friends that she doesn't like, because she doesn't want to be mean and tell them off). In your case, it sounds like she doesn't realize or accept that you and her are different and that you don't have the same natural reactions to things. She thinks you're repressing how you feel, but you're not. That's one of the miscommunications that happens frequently with SJs and people who use introverted sensing a lot. They evaluate things against whatever they think the normal or proper version of the thing is. There's nothing wrong with that approach, but sometimes they leave out the part about how unusual things can be perfectly acceptable.

I don't know if that's any help. Maybe you can try to explain it to her that way. Or you could pull the old switch-aroo. If she thinks you're wrong (or whatever) for not having strong emotional responses, ask her if she has level-headed logical responses, or why one response is better or more valid than the other.

[blackberry]

Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I get along pretty well with my ISFJ mother. Usually, the worst that happens is she thinks I don't mean what I say. "Can I make you a sandwich?" "No, mom, I'm not hungry." "How about some toast?" "I don't want anything to eat." "I have some potato chips in the cupboard." And so on. I take it as her way of caring. She's the type of person who shows that by doing things. She needs to be needed. ... In your case, it sounds like she doesn't realize or accept that you and her are different and that you don't have the same natural reactions to things. She thinks you're repressing how you feel, but you're not. That's one of the miscommunications that happens frequently with SJs and people who use introverted sensing a lot. They evaluate things against whatever they think the normal or proper version of the thing is. There's nothing wrong with that approach, but sometimes they leave out the part about how unusual things can be perfectly acceptable.

That fits my mother to a T.

	I don't know if that's any help. Maybe you can try to explain it to her that way. Or you could pull the old switch-aroo. If she thinks you're wrong (or whatever) for not having strong emotional responses, ask her if she has level-headed logical responses, or why one response is better or more valid than the other.

I've already tried that approach, and it backfired. Basically she just couldn't understand what logic had to do with anything (or maybe what "logic" actually is) and thought it was cold of me to ignore the "humanity" necessary to deal with a particular situation.

Thanks for the advice anyway! (At least we think alike.)

[Tigress]

My INTP boyfriend has the sweetest ISFJ mother in the world. Whenever we visit she makes it her duty to make sure we are entirely comfortable and never in want of anything.

I guess I've just never seen a negative side of her. She makes no demands on my boyfriend whatever he chooses and loves and supports him unconditionally.

I'm sure with your illness she is under a lot of stress and perhaps her shadow is rearing its head. I understand that you would find all this emotion tedious and overbearing, but keep in mind how much she cares for you!

[Deepdelver]

My Mom is an ISFJ. I try to reassure her "F". I tell her, thank you for caring so much, she is so thoughtful, I know how much you love me, etc... and then I tell her I don't need anything right now. She seems to be o.k with that.

[punkyplatypus]

My mom is an ISFJ. We get along fine. We like to team up and tease my father. The only problems I have with her is that she's overly persistent sometimes. For instance, I make friends with a girl and about every time I talk to my mom she asks how the girl is and why I'm not taking her out on a date. I tell her because we're not dating and we're just friends, and my mom nicknames her my ungirlfriend just to bother me & continues to ask me why I don't take her out. But this isn't that bad.
When she gets like this, I know she only feels like she's doing what's best thing for me. My options: play along, play along to show her she's wrong, just prove to her she's wrong, or just ignore her. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. I've come to understand we're not going to always see eye-to-eye, and that's okay.
My mom also has those "instantly angry" buttons. Once pressed, they can't be unpressed. I'm careful to stay away from those. Far away...

[PHS Philip]

Well, before I post this, let me preface it by saying that I have no idea how representative of ISFJs this is.

My mom's an ISFJ of the worst type. I'm not allowed to discuss anything like politics with her because she will flat out refuse to reconsider anything. If I try to get her to look at an underlying assumption she's making, she immediately starts off on a rant about how I'm always attacking her, or just say something about how we just have to disagree. It would be one thing if I were even the slightest bit aggressive in how I argue with her (I'm not, however I come across online), or if she had even been willing to look at why we disagree, but that's impossible for her.

She cannot understand, and refuses to understand, why I think that rules are sometimes stupid. If there is a rule, it is to her immutable law that must be followed to the letter Or Else.

Any bit of me that's not like her, she tries to "fix" so that I'm more like her. Because I'm unusual, it must be bad, so she should try to help me, or so goes her "reasoning." Introversion is something to be cured, apparently (even though she's an introvert, she will never act it, because it's not normal). Using logic rather than emotions to govern even a single decision makes me "cold," "arrogant," and "an asshole." Again, keep in mind that I am careful not to be even remotely INTJish around her.

[Minxz]

My Mum is XSFJ and my sister is INTJ. They clash like crazy. In fact they don't even speak the same language. I am always saying to one of them "I know you heard this but what she actually was saying is this...”

That said there are facets of N thinking that my mother just... I'm not going to say can't but won't grasp. They seem irrelevant to her. She can be so single minded it can drive you crazy. At the same time she is the most generous person you will ever meet. She loves to help people so when she starts yet another sentence with "You should or what you need to do" I try to grit my teeth and remember its coming from a good place she doesn’t mean to sound critical.

In the long run I have attempted to explain to my sister that she is not going to change. I accept her and lover her for who she is and give her the respect she deserves as my Mother and my friend. So while many of the abstract parts of our personality that my sis and I value about ourselves may be beyond her comprehension she still loves us.

So I guess my advice is smile and nod, make sure she knows you love and value her. You can’t change the way she thinks. Perhaps with a LOT of patience you can teach her to not make so many judgments on your choices but since you are someone that interests her deeply she’s always going to have opinions about every choice you make.

[Chrysalis]

ISFJ is for an INTJ one of the worst types to deal with. Remember that it's really, really, really not your fault if you can't communicate. I don't know what kind of advice I can give you, maybe it's something that only gets better if you stop trying to improve it. Anyway don't change your opinions just to please another person.

	Originally Posted by Tigress To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm sure with your illness she is under a lot of stress and perhaps her shadow is rearing its head. I understand that you would find all this emotion tedious and overbearing, but keep in mind how much she cares for you!

That's exactly what an SJ would say!

[blackberry]

	Originally Posted by Tigress To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm sure with your illness she is under a lot of stress and perhaps her shadow is rearing its head. I understand that you would find all this emotion tedious and overbearing, but keep in mind how much she cares for you!

The tension between us is much worse when I'm sick or when I spend too much time with her. It's just that the more she cares, the greater the tension. But I will keep that in mind.





blackberry added to this post, 11 minutes and 30 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Deepdelver To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My Mom is an ISFJ. I try to reassure her "F". I tell her, thank you for caring so much, she is so thoughtful, I know how much you love me, etc... and then I tell her I don't need anything right now. She seems to be o.k with that.

I thank her all the time and tell her (usually several times before she believes me) that I don't need anything now, and it does seem to help.

[Autoptic]

Lots of angry buttons, inability to justify her positions coupled with constant enforcement of them even when it was blatantly stupid and costly, and trying to fix me, I know them all. Mine for some reason often seemed to regard me as an appendage and sacrificed me for whoever she was helping, usually her siblings. I've never had anything that she wasn't prepared to interrupt or cancel outright to alleviate some minor inconvenience of one of them, even strangers. She'd say "Let me help you," then command me to do stuff while she watched and supervised, interrupting to explain the dumbest way to do whatever it was and blaming me when it didn't work. She did the same for her own purposes all the time. When the family called her a worker, it pissed me off.

[blackberry]

	Originally Posted by punkyplatypus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My mom also has those "instantly angry" buttons. Once pressed, they can't be unpressed. I'm careful to stay away from those. Far away...

Huh...so it's not just my mom who's like that. But I never know what things I've said that triggered her explosion even though I always ask her after she's calmed down what the trigger was, and I just can't figure out the pattern. I'm usually good at figuring out patterns, but in her case, it makes no sense.

[Autoptic]

I think they make them up as they go along. As there emotional state changes so do the rules, but the particular mix of emotions and the mixing of emotions and actual thought is often unique. They probably don't know either. It's like chaos theory. You'd need to completely understand the system at a given point to predict any following states.

[Karamazov]

Originally Posted by PHS Philip To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, before I post this, let me preface it by saying that I have no idea how representative of ISFJs this is. My mom's an ISFJ of the worst type. I'm not allowed to discuss anything like politics with her because she will flat out refuse to reconsider anything. If I try to get her to look at an underlying assumption she's making, she immediately starts off on a rant about how I'm always attacking her, or just say something about how we just have to disagree. It would be one thing if I were even the slightest bit aggressive in how I argue with her (I'm not, however I come across online), or if she had even been willing to look at why we disagree, but that's impossible for her.

Your mother should go bowling with mine. This description is spot on, in terms of describing the more frustrating issues concerning the type. I've long ago stopped participating in political or religious discourse to keep the peace.

[blackberry]

Originally Posted by PHS Philip To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My mom's an ISFJ of the worst type. I'm not allowed to discuss anything like politics with her because she will flat out refuse to reconsider anything. If I try to get her to look at an underlying assumption she's making, she immediately starts off on a rant about how I'm always attacking her, or just say something about how we just have to disagree. It would be one thing if I were even the slightest bit aggressive in how I argue with her (I'm not, however I come across online), or if she had even been willing to look at why we disagree, but that's impossible for her. She cannot understand, and refuses to understand, why I think that rules are sometimes stupid. If there is a rule, it is to her immutable law that must be followed to the letter Or Else.

Yes -- stay far, far away from discussions on politics, religion and philosophy, even if you tell her that you "agree to disagree". My mother is as pertinacious as a honey badger when it comes to her opinions on such topics because she believes she is absolutely right and cannot contemplate contrary opinions.

Any bit of me that's not like her, she tries to "fix" so that I'm more like her. Because I'm unusual, it must be bad, so she should try to help me, or so goes her "reasoning." Introversion is something to be cured, apparently (even though she's an introvert, she will never act it, because it's not normal). Using logic rather than emotions to govern even a single decision makes me "cold," "arrogant," and "an asshole." Again, keep in mind that I am careful not to be even remotely INTJish around her.

Exactly the same with me and my mom.
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blackberry added to this post, 12 minutes and 47 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Chrysalis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Anyway don't change your opinions just to please another person.

I never do -- I only change my opinions if I have acquired new logical information that makes more sense than what I previously believed.





blackberry added to this post, 24 minutes and 29 seconds later...

Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Lots of angry buttons, inability to justify her positions coupled with constant enforcement of them even when it was blatantly stupid and costly, and trying to fix me, I know them all. Mine for some reason often seemed to regard me as an appendage and sacrificed me for whoever she was helping, usually her siblings. I've never had anything that she wasn't prepared to interrupt or cancel outright to alleviate some minor inconvenience of one of them, even strangers. She'd say "Let me help you," then command me to do stuff while she watched and supervised, interrupting to explain the dumbest way to do whatever it was and blaming me when it didn't work. She did the same for her own purposes all the time. When the family called her a worker, it pissed me off.

That's similar to what my mom's like, except she's never actually volunteered me to do "work" (though when I was a kid, my parents made me attend a church club -- no options, period). She also makes ultimatums that I must do such-and-such a thing or else and demands it be done in a certain way, but if it is "work," she almost always does more of the work than I do. She's a workaholic and very skilled at painting, woodworking, cleaning, plumbing, bookkeeping, typing, etc. (though she claims she's unintelligent -- sigh!).

On the sacrificial side of her... Once when I was with her at the mall (a once-a-year, last-ditch occurrence for me
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), my mother met an acquaintance of hers who was having car trouble so my mother gave her the keys to our car so the woman could run her errands for the day. We were stuck at the mall for six or seven hours until her acquaintance returned the car. It was interminable, and I was flabbergasted! My mother does things like that all the time.
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blackberry added to this post, 2 minutes and 6 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Minxz To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So I guess my advice is smile and nod, make sure she knows you love and value her. You can’t change the way she thinks. Perhaps with a LOT of patience you can teach her to not make so many judgments on your choices but since you are someone that interests her deeply she’s always going to have opinions about every choice you make.

LOTS and lots of patience...





blackberry added to this post, 13 minutes and 5 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think they make them up as they go along. As there emotional state changes so do the rules, but the particular mix of emotions and the mixing of emotions and actual thought is often unique. They probably don't know either. It's like chaos theory. You'd need to completely understand the system at a given point to predict any following states.

Like the Butterfly Effect... Why not kill all the butterflies and eliminate the chaos?
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Ah well...

[punkyplatypus]

	Originally Posted by blackberry To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Huh...so it's not just my mom who's like that. But I never know what things I've said that triggered her explosion even though I always ask her after she's calmed down what the trigger was, and I just can't figure out the pattern. I'm usually good at figuring out patterns, but in her case, it makes no sense.

For my mom, I'm always walking on eggshells. For the most part we can get along. I'll sometimes challenge her thoughts and we can have a peaceful discussion. However, when she doesn't move from her position on a subject I try not to push too hard. It's way easier to agree to disagree.

Example:
mom- I believe X.
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me- X is flawed because of Y.
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mom- Y is irrelevant. I still believe X.
me- Even without Y, X is flawed because of Z.
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mom (temper is obviously getting more volatile)- I still believe in X.
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me (this is where I stop and leave, agree, or change the subject)

Topics which are usually triggers: religion, politics, where she's defending someone's actions, where I'm defending someone's actions, ethics issues, etc.

I try to keep our discussion with easily reasoned factors, rather than assumptions or opinions, that don't involve much emotion. If her emotions get involved, it's like her logical process turns off from the overwhelming feelings. I can understand how that'd be annoying, so I try not to be the source of annoyance. However, many times I need my father or sister's help in recognizing my mother's growing anger. I'll get locked in to focusing in on what makes sense & what doesn't to the point that I'm ignoring physical factors like changing facial expressions and subtle tone changes. I think this extreme focus makes it seem like she just snaps when in actuality her anger has been growing slowly & I just haven't been paying attention.

[blackberry]

Originally Posted by punkyplatypus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

For my mom, I'm always walking on eggshells. For the most part we can get along. I'll sometimes challenge her thoughts and we can have a peaceful discussion. However, when she doesn't move from her position on a subject I try not to push too hard. It's way easier to agree to disagree. Example: mom- I believe X. me- X is flawed because of Y. mom- Y is irrelevant. I still believe X. me- Even without Y, X is flawed because of Z. mom (temper is obviously getting more volatile)- I still believe in X. me (this is where I stop and leave, agree, or change the subject) Topics which are usually triggers: religion, politics, where she's defending someone's actions, where I'm defending someone's actions, ethics issues, etc. I try to keep our discussion with easily reasoned factors, rather than assumptions or opinions, that don't involve much emotion. If her emotions get involved, it's like her logical process turns off from the overwhelming feelings. I can understand how that'd be annoying, so I try not to be the source of annoyance. However, many times I need my father or sister's help in recognizing my mother's growing anger. I'll get locked in to focusing in on what makes sense & what doesn't to the point that I'm ignoring physical factors like changing facial expressions and subtle tone changes. I think this extreme focus makes it seem like she just snaps when in actuality her anger has been growing slowly & I just haven't been paying attention.

Your sample discussion is precisely the way it is between my mom and me. And your advice really makes sense. I don't really watch her facial expressions or tone changes when I'm trying to explain my reasoning for certain opinions. Half of our conversations take place in the car or over the phone so I can't see her face most of the time, and during the other half of our conversations I confess I usually zone out because the subject is uninteresting or because I'm inside my own head and not actually (physically) seeing anything else. So my mom probably is visibly growing angry and I'm not noticing it. I'll try to get outside of my goldfish bowl of thought and pay more attention. Oh, bother...it's so complicated.
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Do ISFJs ever change their minds?? And, if so, how does one persuade them to do so -- or to agree that alternative perspectives are acceptable? I do know that my mother has a worrying tendency to take as gospel anything she reads -- especially if the book was written by an author claiming to be a Christian or a medical or holistic medicine professional -- without cross-checking the information with other sources or verifying the author's credentials. I'm assuming that because my mother makes her arguments with visible passion, a loud voice, and lots of gesticulation that the same would be necessary to be compelling. True or false? I know from personal experience that making a persuasive, logical, well-researched argument does not work. Would a combination of the two styles work? (Though personally her enthusiastic style of argument is really draining.)
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[just a user]

	Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I get along pretty well with my ISFJ mother. Usually, the worst that happens is she thinks I don't mean what I say. "Can I make you a sandwich?" "No, mom, I'm not hungry." "How about some toast?" "I don't want anything to eat." "I have some potato chips in the cupboard." And so on.

LOL

This is unbelievable. I have the same discussion with my ISFJ mom almost every time I visit her. If I had any doubts in MBTI, they are gone now.
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[OneHertz]

you guys are so mean to your ISFJs lol. They truly care for you and this is how you repay them. You know, they probably get more frustrated with you then you do with them.

/me is biased

[enfpchick]

My isfj father an i are like apples and oranges. We do NOT mix well together.
I have learned that locking yourself in a room and only keeping minimal contact helps smooth things over.

[just a user]

That topic got me, so excuse me for taking that forum as kind of a therapy group.


What is bad about ISFJ moms?
1. As said before, they will try to turn you into someone that resembles themselves. It is their mission. They'll do it "for your own sake" (TM). Especially if you do not develop as other teenagers do, they'll automatically believe that you are not normal, ill, or will become some kind of freak or pervert. "Why don't you go out on the weekends, why don't you get a boyfriend, why don't you like kids, go shopping, bla bla."

As PHS Philip said perfectly <quote>
Any bit of me that's not like her, she tries to "fix" so that I'm more like her. Because I'm unusual, it must be bad, so she should try to help me, or so goes her "reasoning." Introversion is something to be cured, apparently (even though she's an introvert, she will never act it, because it's not normal). Using logic rather than emotions to govern even a single decision makes me "cold," "arrogant," and "an asshole." Again, keep in mind that I am careful not to be even remotely INTJish around her.
</quote>

2. Even if they say otherwise, deep down they depend on the opinion of others to feel accepted. So it matters how you behave because "what would people think about us" (TM) otherwise. They perceive themselves to be very open-minded because it is accepted that one is open-minded. But they are some of the most conservative people when it comes to socially acceptable behaviour.

3. What makes them very hard to detect, at least for me, is that you may believe them to be relying on thinking when they are only repeating their (sensed) or observed experiences. While they nurture you and tend to be very eF, they can also seem very organized and rational because they can act based on facts. Even to the point that annoying details matter to them that I as an INTJ would not even bother to recognize. So especially in situations involving sensing skills, they make you think you are a retard (which I may well be when it comes to sensing). This is normal.

4. They are proud of their practical skills. Everyone involved in theoretical discussions or abstract things is just a damned fool that has never done any "real work" (TM). People who deal with research or science are seen as freaks. They respect them, but ony if they have proven themselves to survive in "the real world".

5. They are always "doing" something. If you sit there and read something, you are "lost in your own world" (TM). This is usually said in a pitying sense with a patronizing smile.
However, there is at least hope for coexistence.

What you can do to deal with them

1. Explain stuff to them as if they were aliens who know nothing about the world. They really need a) the details that we omit and b) a procedural explanation of almost everything, even and especially the boring stuff that they have done a hundred times before.

If they do not get this, they can get emotionally upset, to say the least. They will feel as if big secrets of the universe are kept from them, while INTJs think we do them a favour by omitting obvious BS.

2. IMHO, it is one of the most distrurbing experiences to see them freak out for no reason. The only solution is:
a. Collect those moments of anger management problems.
b. Find out what they have in common. Usually, ISFJs have had previous experiences where their feelings were deeply hurt by the kind of behaviour/thiniking that you, the INTJ, is showing in a certain situation.
c. Omit that behaviour.


3. Give emotions as reasons for your behaviour. Even if they do not agree with you, they will shut up, listen, and -- maybe -- respect your decisions. Justify your decisions with practical examples about how happy, satisfying, or whatever your decisions make you.

4. Show your INTJ powers of predicting the future, which is just using your common sense to predict the consequences of their actions. They will not listen. But if you do that ten times, they will see it as traditional behaviour and, in some rare cases, actually consider what you said.

My final advice is: While in her presence, accept the fact that you are always wrong.

Now, the really cool thing is that they will really nurture you. They can be some of the most caring people in the world, as long as one does not question their behaviour. They will sacrifice anything for their brood.

[PHS Philip]

	Originally Posted by OneHertz To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	you guys are so mean to your ISFJs lol. They truly care for you and this is how you repay them. You know, they probably get more frustrated with you then you do with them. /me is biased

It isn't enough to just mean well.

[blackberry]

	Originally Posted by enfpchick To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have learned that locking yourself in a room and only keeping minimal contact helps smooth things over.

Same here.
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	Originally Posted by just a user To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As said before, they will try to turn you into someone that resembles themselves. It is their mission. They'll do it "for your own sake" (TM). Especially if you do not develop as other teenagers do, they'll automatically believe that you are not normal, ill, or will become some kind of freak or pervert.

No kidding!
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During my freshman year in college, I lived in a suite with juniors and seniors (lucky me!) because I have a food intolerance that required me to have a kitchen. I've always preferred to have a very limited number of close friends, and I'm not crazy about socializing with people my own age (they're mostly too immature, though recently they have been maturing fortunately). My favorite activities are "loner" activities like reading, researching, painting, woodcarving, etc. and (at college, for instance) weekly small-group, "bohemian" activities like sitting around drinking hot cocoa (though it was Tea Club...I hate tea) and watching "Red Dwarf" or walking five miles to a rare and used books store. Clearly my ISFJ mother didn't understand that my being a "loner" and having a "limited" social life was indicative of depression and alienation from my peers. Then (now this gets funny), my mother phoned my Resident Director and requested that I be moved into a dorm with students my own age, and my RD called me in to discuss my alienation and its remedy. Fortunately I was able to convince him that my mother was clueless about my personality and happiness.

	But they are some of the most conservative people when it comes to socially acceptable behaviour.

Same with my mom -- die-hard Republican, law-abiding, evangelical Christian.

	Even to the point that annoying details matter to them that I as an INTJ would not even bother to recognize.

Same here -- whenever I have a conversation with a friend or a doctor or a family member, my mom asks me questions about them and all I can say is: "I have no idea, it never occurred to me to ask." But I can tell her the answers to questions that she isn't all that interested in.

	They are proud of their practical skills. Everyone involved in theoretical discussions or abstract things is just a damned fool that has never done any "real work" (TM). People who deal with research or science are seen as freaks. They respect them, but ony if they have proven themselves to survive in "the real world".

WOW! My mom loves that expression: "the real world". But to me, the "real world" is a world of possibilities and opportunities and inevitable but fixable set-backs, so long as you keep your wits (and some luck) about you. My mom thinks I should become a librarian or web designer (which is a relaxing and I'm good at it but too simple and unsatisfying as a long-term job for me) because I'm good at it and it's easily within my reach. I, however, know (that damnable INTJ self-confidence!) I should become an Egyptologist because I love the field, it's challenging, I get to do my own research rather than the often generalized research for others, and I would regret not obtaining my ideal job. My mom is right, in her own way, that her job choice for me is practical and realistic but not right for me in the long run. I hate stagnancy and boredom.

	They are always "doing" something. If you sit there and read something, you are "lost in your own world" (TM).

My mom accuses me of that all the time. But sitting and reading something IS doing something.
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Cultural improvement.

	What you can do to deal with them ...

Good advice... I'll try it out and see if it works. Thanks!
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[OneHertz]

	Originally Posted by just a user To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	4. Show your INTJ powers of predicting the future, which is just using your common sense to predict the consequences of their actions. They will not listen. But if you do that ten times, they will see it as traditional behaviour and, in some rare cases, actually consider what you said.

+1. After you are right on the dot many times, things change a lot.

[Aldanga]

I've heard guns work well.
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