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INTJ vs. ENTJ as leaders leadership
Old 08-17-2012, 04:54 AM   #1
Sramana
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Both INTJs and ENTJs can be capable leaders. There must be certain differences, however, in their leading styles, since the two types have a different order of functions, respectively Ni-Te-Fi-Se and Te-Ni-Se-Fi. Am I right to assume that a dominant Te and tertiary Se would make an ENTJ more decisive and engaging regarding his external environment (of course simply due to his extroversion as well) - the people and affairs he wishes to organize - while an INTJ would be more thorough in his thinking (Ni followed by Te), deliberating more before decision-making, and less in tune with the concrete environment and people he wishes to organize (dominant Ni coupled with quaternary Se)?

In my own experience, I tend to be less interested in thorough discussions with people before decision-making compared to most extroverted leaders I know. When working on something as a group, I rely more heavily on expertise found in documents than on the opinions people present during a meeting. As a J, I am driven to make quick decisions and work toward concrete goals, and as an Ni I am capable of taking various viewpoints simultaneously into account. However, I think I am more interested in realizing my intuitive ideas effectively than in the social context in which I do so, whereas I wonder whether it would be the opposite way around for an ENTJ leader (primarily getting energy from working in a social context, secondarily implementing one's intuition in an effective way).
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:00 AM   #2
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Silent Katana vs Messy Hatchet.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:18 AM   #3
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I found that in general, INTJs were quite good in a general supervisory capacity, where most of the people knew what they were doing before they came to the job, but where a lot of things would change last minute, and a lot of ad-hoc work had to be done. Most of the time, the workers were not told much about what to do, other than there was a job, and to do it, and that's all they needed. When things changed last minute, a lot of the time, the workers didn't have the time to sort things out. Then the INTJ would just take over and sort the matter himself.

In the case of ENTJs, they were more running the show. They were hiring new trainees, giving out clear instructions on what needed to be done, and how. When problems cropped up, the ENTJ's door was always open. If a major issue came up, that none of the workers knew how to deal with, then the ENTJ would then tell the workers precisely how to deal with the matter, and then the workers would deal with it themselves.

That's just what I observed.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:05 AM   #4
IreOfDesire
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Leading in what context?
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:30 AM   #5
Sramana
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  Originally Posted by IreOfDesire
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Leading in what context?

I was referring to general leadership qualities, not a specific context, though had in mind specifically managers at the workplace, project managers, and leaders of political/academic communities.

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Old 08-17-2012, 08:46 AM   #6
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INTJs in general are passive-aggressive and ENTJs aggressive-assertive.

INTJs get very extraverted (Te) when there is no strong leadership in a situation. This comes after careful observation and understanding of the topic at hand. Whenever there is a strong (ENTJ) or manipulative (ENTP) leader on a project I work on, I make sure to get close to that person. I prefer to lead/give input from the background and play the situation/person as I would a game of chess. Not necessarily for my own benefit but to assure the project runs smooth and efficient. When I have to constantly take the lead (like spontaneous speeches or suggestions at meetings) I lose my effectiveness as I’d rather analyze than just jump behind the wheel. After such incidents, I analyze what I’ve said/done and then only come up with the brilliant solutions.

ENTJs are quick to judge a situation. Their secondary Ni gives them the means to see the bigger picture but not in such a broad spectrum as the INTJ. The INTJ can be very good at imitating the ENTJ with regards to leadership style (steamroller) but doesn’t have the energy to constantly be like that. Vice versa, I also noted ENTJs imitating INTJs when they need to analyze something. When quick decisions must be made due to pop-up problems I will let the leader give his/her opinion on how to do it and then analyze it or expand on what they've said. I have worked with other INTJs on projects but there seems to be clashes due to ego’s, I guess (or it’s just plain stubbornness). Personally, I prefer to work with ENTJs on projects as we complement each other’s leadership style and can substitute each other when needed.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:24 AM   #7
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In Susan Cain's book,
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, she discusses the leadership styles of introverts vs extroverts.

Apparently extroverts tend to synergize better leading a team of mostly introverts, explicitly telling them what needs to happen, providing motivation and momentum. Introverts tend to synergize with a team of mostly extroverts, mostly by staying quiet and listening, and giving general top-level directions and decisions as needed.

With respect to ENTJ vs INTJ, ENTJs tend to be movers and shakers: they make a decision and they expect it to be carried out. It's possible to get them to rescind a decision, but most people aren't very good at that. (INTJs are among the few who can do that, but not all the time.)

INTJs are definitely not movers and shakers. They observe and figure out the workflows, procedures, etc., and optimize those with an eye to making sure that they actually result in productive activity and not just spinning wheels and looking like work. They can be as forceful as ENTJs, but with a different tone. They cannot expend energy all the time just to push things to happen, and if they do that, they lose track of their strategies. Instead, INTJs put a lot of thought into how to get things done, and then use that to help their team(s) accomplish things effectively and efficiently. Also, as leaders, they put a lot of thought into how to say things so that they're "obviously" good ideas, and rely on their workers' feedback, because it's much easier to implement a "good idea" than an "order" or "directive."

As others have noted, INTJs prefer to offer good ideas and then let others carry them out, whether as a leader or as "the power behind the throne."
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:32 AM   #8
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My feeling is that ENTJ's lead people, INTJ's lead projects.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:16 AM   #9
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I've had quite a few leadership experiences this past year and thought my experience might prove informative. In the first, I joined a social psychology lab at my university, where nothing was getting done. Lab meetings were primarily talking about hypothetical projects, and they were working on one experiment and one paper. I wasn't interested in speculating, so I started working. Once our grad student left I stepped into her organizer role, and after 3 months we had 4 studies going, were writing 3 papers, developing 2 scales and had outlined and begun work on 2 books based on our research. For me, leadership isn't about herding humans; I can't stomach it. I have 0 interest in motivating people. However, I'm highly motivated, and my attitude is that "if you're not going to do it, I am" and people usually just follow with it.

In another situation, I just helped start a non-profit, and am acting as a coordinator for task forces of volunteers. This has proven exhausting, as I have to motivate people to participate, keep track of them and spend time trying to recruit. Getting people to do things is absolutely not in my personality; if someone wants to work with me I'll let them, but I never ASK them to because I'd rather be working alone. In contrast to the lab, our conversation are essentially about talking to people; how to recruit, how to organize, and therefore not on topics that interest me. This position will probably be given to someone else and my role in the organization transformed into something like strategic adviser so I can remain involved to the degree I am now without the headache of spending an hour every day responding to emails on topics that don't appeal to me.

As I'm working part time while I'm in school, I get offers for advancement fairly regularly, and have ever been asked to serve as a board member for a national non-profit, all of which I declined. Realizing my vision is the greatest contribution I can make to the world, and anything that distracts from it (without serving it by providing recovery time for me) is highly undesirable.

So generally, I avoid leading. I think the intelligence and drive of the INTJ makes us high velocity vessels and when people get caught in our slipstream they tend to like to stay there, pulled along by our energy. I can't stand being led by someone I consider less competent than I am, and will, without fail, find a way to take over, but when I don't need to lead I avoid it at all costs. Managing people is a huge distraction from realizing my visions, and therefore inefficient, and inefficiency is excruciating. I hope this perhaps allows those on this forum to feel witnessed for their Ni, as I've spent the last year truly coming to terms with it and recently refusing to fake extraversion. INTJs are one of, if not the rarest type on the MBTI spectrum (claims go back and forth between INFJ and INTJ), and if we sublimate our unique gifts then we sacrifice their contributions, so I've learned that I need to do what I do best and reject short term socially-tactical goals in favor of long term goals with bigger payoffs.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:13 PM   #10
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From my observations of both INTJ and ENTJ leaders (more ENTJs by far in my personal experience) - the ENTJ makes the more effective leader as a general rule and can make the INTJ positively look like a feeler in their unbending and aggressive will. Extroversion goes a long ways in leadership.

I find I work better with INTJ leaders. Ni dom allows for more exploration if they aren't too rigid, I do find that true INTJs, in the final analysis, aren't actually as rigid as they appear to be.

INTJs: as leaders, to a one of them that I know, are viewed as team leaders and a bit disassociated from their employees, choosing instead to allow their team to do their thing (In the end this is the most effective form of leadership) Their drawback can be their introversion as they literally ignore their employees most of the time until something goes wrong. They are insanely brilliant strategists.

ENTJs: tend to be more autocratic and autonomous in their approach. Their employees tend to either worship or fear them, or have some combination of the two. They really are brilliant manipulators of people and have a near magical ability to manifest their vision into reality. Their weakness is their inability to handle the natural foibles and emotions of their staff on a daily basis (inferior Fi) and sometimes their ego's can balloon to enormous proportions and the tendency towards dictatorialism can get the best of them.

I believe that both types are well served to have a feeler as a second in command - in fact the most effective leaders of both types recognize this. It really offsets, rounds out and compliments their strengths. The two most brilliantly effective NTJ leaders I know have employed this (INTJ/ENFP - ENTJ/INFJ , note the polarization on the I/E divide)
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:18 PM   #11
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INTJ leader: Just let me do it so it is done right. I wish you were never born.
ENTJ leader: Just do it my way so it is done right, or I will make you wish you were never born.

Lighthearted stereotyping
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:23 PM   #12
Moxiie
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  Originally Posted by Chameleon
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INTJ leader: Just let me do it so it is done right. I wish you were never born.
ENTJ leader: Just do it my way so it is done right, or I will make you wish you were never born.

Lighthearted stereotyping
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omg that is so damn true. I'm immediately send this onto my INTJ and ENTJ friends.

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Old 01-04-2013, 01:04 PM   #13
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My sister self types as ENTJ though I am not too sure how accurate that is. When I think of her leading style...she doesn't really have one. She doesn't lead, people follow. Very much a commit 110% to my ideas and don't ask questions or gtfo mentality.

When asked to lead, I place myself more as a safety net gently steering from the back ground. I don't like to baby sit. If something goes wrong, I'll step in to fix it or reset the course, then the rest is up to you. Most of the leading happens in the planing or through behind the scenes "tweaking". I respond really well to people who are self motivated and driven. People who need a lot of validation or supervision won't usually be in my circle or will have roles of very little consequence.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:42 PM   #14
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ENTP > ENTJ > INTJ


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Ne - Big picture, excitement, impetus, creative new possibilities, able to see the perspectives of everyone on board.
Ti - Thorough understanding and reasoning
Fe - Feely personal and team-building stuff
Si - Anchor in what is tried and true
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:57 PM   #15
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  Originally Posted by Polymath20
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ENTP > ENTJ > INTJ


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Ne - Big picture, excitement, impetus, creative new possibilities, able to see the perspectives of everyone on board.
Ti - Thorough understanding and reasoning
Fe - Feely personal and team-building stuff
Si - Anchor in what is tried and true

Looks like you guys have this covered. Awesome!

I'll be over there if anyone needs me.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:05 PM   #16
Distance
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Fast paced, high stress environments with time sensitive deadlines that require quick decision making is where ENTJs excel.

Slower paced high stress environments with deadlines like engineering, will be where INTJs excel. The slower place will allow INTJs to think through every decision.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:37 AM   #17
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Hmm. Some people and situations favor one or the other.

Pace may come into it, but so does the amount of autonomy granted after the briefing phase. As well as other things.

Some hands on leaders waste the experts (not talking about INTJs in this case) experience by the compulsion to take control or take credit and glory. It is enough to cause serious short term and long term problems.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:50 AM   #18
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I am -very- close to being an E, but not enough to be considered an ENTJ. Often I just take over whatever is being done when not being done right - but am told I am an excellent instructor. Perhaps it is the near blend of the two - no idea.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:21 PM   #19
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  Originally Posted by Chameleon
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ENTJ leader: Just do it my way so it is done right, or I will make you wish you were never born.

Wow. The only 2 teachers who could control the kids in my school, both said that to us, the first day we had class.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:19 AM   #20
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  Originally Posted by Chameleon
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INTJ leader: Just let me do it so it is done right. I wish you were never born.
ENTJ leader: Just do it my way so it is done right, or I will make you wish you were never born.

Lighthearted stereotyping
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So damn right!
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You sir have my respect for putting it so bluntly.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:27 AM   #21
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I suspect that an ENTJ is largely akin to an INTJ - except with a clearer sense of what he personally wants and a greater desire to get it. So the ENTJ would likely also have somewhat more charisma.

ENTJ is probably also more interested in taking action than understanding correctly and finding the right answer (although the INTJ's right would still be more defined by intuitive understanding than clear rational understanding - in theory)
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:14 AM   #22
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  Originally Posted by Polymath20
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ENTP > ENTJ > INTJ


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Ne - Big picture, excitement, impetus, creative new possibilities, able to see the perspectives of everyone on board.
Ti - Thorough understanding and reasoning
Fe - Feely personal and team-building stuff
Si - Anchor in what is tried and true

INTP>
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Just manage systems, not the people. If the systems that govern the people are without flaw, than you have little mishaps. If you continuously try to manage people, you will continuously fail. Giving yourself more work than necessary.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:47 PM   #23
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  Originally Posted by Chameleon
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ENTJ leader: Just do it my way so it is done right, or I will make you wish you were never born.

No. Quit getting bogged down in irrelevancies or you'll be made irrelevant as a time waster.

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Old 01-29-2014, 03:00 PM   #24
count0
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One of my classmates did a study on MBTI types vs leadership attributes, specifically in project management. Both ENTJ and INTJ make good leaders, but there were specific areas where ENTJs did better, and specific areas where INTJs did better. For example, I think INTJs were superior at risk management, but ENTJs were more decisive. Let me see if I can dig it up.

---------- Post added 01-29-2014 at 01:29 PM ----------

There was a previous study that identified the 4 leadership types as ENTJ, INTJ, ESTJ, and ISTJ. My classmate looked at that study and interviewed a bunch of people in the MBA, LGO, and SDM programs at the MIT Sloan school of business to see how well things actually correlated and tried to map leadership skills to MBTI types.

There is an assumption built in here that I should point out. All the people interviewed as part of this study would have had leadership experience and some level of success in their careers, because that's pretty much a perquisite to getting into any of these programs. Does that mean they were good leaders? Maybe they were just good at convincing the admission committee they were good leaders? I don't know, but here are some slides.


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And Poly, ENTP is considered a borderline type. In some cases they can make good leaders in other cases, they are followers. Looking at the types identified as those best suited for leadership, it's obvious that Te in the primary or secondary is the key. Ne is unfocused, and can just as easily lead to discord and chaos as it can to solutions.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:31 AM   #25
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count, you need to open a blog here and post as much of that shit as you can. Love it.
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