[LiveNotOnEvil]

Originally Posted by obnoxious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No not at all, you just need to keep an eye out for subtlety so you can see how one arrived at their conclusions. As an example, an INFJ could develop absolutely impressive use of Ti if said INFJ had an interest in science (Ni). His NiFe way of looking at things would allow him to see what scientists expect (logic and empirical support) and this would be what guides him as he learns to apply Ti to his natural Ni thoughts.

So if I was an Fe then, what would be the primary difference (or couple of differences) that distinguish that from a Ti?

[obnoxious]

You're not an Fe though, or a Ti; it would be INFJ aka NiFeTiSe. Your primary being would be NiFe, as opposed to TiNe.


NiFe:

identifying external function as defined by people/culture/history, and being particularly interested in comparing and contrasting different cultural elements to come to an understanding of why and how a given culture believes in what they do.

Cultures include those that develop among people interested in the same things, like physics or scrapbooking. The NiFe mind will analyse such cultures by identifying the functional elements that betray the nature of the culture

Eg. Semiotics are the NiJe domain because they have agreed upon external function and can be used to understand other concepts within that culture/context denoted by the sign or symbol



TiNe:


Identifying external relationships between things and creating reasons to explain them by breaking things down enough to find common denominators so to speak.

Eg. what makes a fruit a fruit?

Well, tomatoes are considered fruit, what about them is different from vegetables and similar to fruit?

Seeds. Must investigate further, aka break things down further.




NiFe eg.

what makes a fruit a fruit?

Well, if someone likes the taste of it chances are it's a fruit.

(subjective perception of fruit = 'fruit is good based on common belief, most people dislike veggies')


Now, there's truth to this, and as far as he is concerned his answer is functionally accurate until the actual biological differences become important to know. But then his Ni will ask you, 'are you sure it's so important to know? how far do we have to go for you to be satisfied, as truthfully there isn't much difference once we get down far enough'


^^and that would be an example of Ti backing Ni (nitty gritty details to definitively cap his macro perspective on the matter)

[LiveNotOnEvil]

Originally Posted by obnoxious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You're not an Fe though, or a Ti; it would be INFJ aka NiFeTiSe. Your primary being would be NiFe, as opposed to TiNe. NiFe: identifying external function as defined by people/culture/history, and being particularly interested in comparing and contrasting different cultural elements to come to an understanding of why and how a given culture believes in what they do. Cultures include those that develop among people interested in the same things, like physics or scrapbooking. The NiFe mind will analyse such cultures by identifying the functional elements that betray the nature of the culture Eg. Semiotics are the NiJe domain because they have agreed upon external function and can be used to understand other concepts within that culture/context denoted by the sign or symbol TiNe: Identifying external relationships between things and creating reasons to explain them by breaking things down enough to find common denominators so to speak. Eg. what makes a fruit a fruit? Well, tomatoes are considered fruit, what about them is different from vegetables and similar to fruit? Seeds. Must investigate further, aka break things down further. NiFe eg. what makes a fruit a fruit? Well, if someone likes the taste of it chances are it's a fruit. (subjective perception of fruit = 'fruit is good based on common belief, most people dislike veggies') Now, there's truth to this, and as far as he is concerned his answer is functionally accurate until the actual biological differences become important to know. But then his Ni will ask you, 'are you sure it's so important to know? how far do we have to go for you to be satisfied, as truthfully there isn't much difference once we get down far enough' ^^and that would be an example of Ti backing Ni (nitty gritty details to definitively cap his macro perspective on the matter)

But the problem is that I'm a computer programmer, so I do things explicitly based on logical things, not people's opinions. I use people's opinions too, but very rarely.

[obnoxious]

Eh, thats where the essay on something nonfictional would help. 'based on logical things' even with regards to programming can mean various things: logical due to consistency, logical due to function and efficiency, etc. I mean the comp is the arbiter, but he;s easily satisfied and thats where subtleties come in

[LiveNotOnEvil]

	Originally Posted by obnoxious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Eh, thats where the essay on something nonfictional would help. 'based on logical things' even with regards to programming can mean various things: logical due to consistency, logical due to function and efficiency, etc.

Logical due to taking the facts, making them work and creating order from an idea. If something doesn't fit then it doesn't, if you can make it fit then it doesn't. You make the pieces yourself and build them together in a jigsaw puzzle. I can't (nor do I want to) rely on other people for that. The only time my Fe really comes out is when I someone has a problem and it's either very easy for me to help or they're very close to me, otherwise I have more important things to do. I base my decisions in life to an overwhelming degree on facts, not on emotion, though I guess that doesn't necessarily make me a Ti

[obnoxious]

What determines if something fits?

[LiveNotOnEvil]

	Originally Posted by obnoxious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What determines if something fits?

That depends on who you ask.

[obnoxious]

Indeed. There's definitely Ti in that answer (maybe), no other motivation (the perception) is really entirely obvious.


What say you?

[LiveNotOnEvil]

	Originally Posted by obnoxious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Indeed. There's definitely Ti in that answer (maybe), no other motivation (the perception) is really entirely obvious. What say you?

I say that I like using the MBTI framework to better assess myself so that I can simply know where I fit in sense. I don't really take it all that seriously and take actual intellect much more seriously as that is independant of MBTI, regardless, I would just like to know what type I am to have a notion of where I do fit. Leading back to the initial point, what determines what fits is the creator of the notion, the experts in this case are best qualified as they have studied it more than I have built of the fundamental principles of how the system works. If I didn't care about personality typing then I couldn't care less who decides because it wouldn't have anything to do with me, but I am somewhat interested.

[obnoxious]

I don't take it all that seriously either, but it seems like a rationalist's haven as it is entirely (mostly) theoretical at the moment and dependent on one's argument. That's why I enjoy it anyway.


As for your answer, you seem to be saying logic or truth is context dependent, as opposed to unyielding. You have an Ni view if you naturally consider the evolution of the subjects you are interested in up to their present point.


Someone went to my page and linked me to another thread of yours on the rules of this forum, read this of mine:


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and then go back to your thread and recognize how you are addressing the functional intentions of everyone`s arguments. NiFe, backed by Ti

[LiveNotOnEvil]

Originally Posted by obnoxious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't take it all that seriously either, but it seems like a rationalist's haven as it is entirely (mostly) theoretical at the moment and dependent on one's argument. That's why I enjoy it anyway. As for your answer, you seem to be saying logic or truth is context dependent, as opposed to unyielding. You have an Ni view if you naturally consider the evolution of the subjects you are interested in up to their present point. Someone went to my page and linked me to another thread of yours on the rules of this forum, read this of mine: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. and then go back to your thread and recognize how you are addressing the functional intentions of everyone`s arguments. NiFe, backed by Ti

I was fighting against what I considered too be other people's lack of understanding of what rules should be applied in what circumstance. To not do this is unquestioning faith in rules. I saw problems with the rules and I questioned them, no one could provide substantial evidence or backing for these rules other than "they just are that way to protect users from what could happen" so I attacked the arguments as any logical person would when faced with bureaucratic rules serving no pragmatic purpose. Any intelligent person would pull arguments apart at the fact that they serve no practical purpose, the only other option is to really accept what they are and keep them, which is ignorant and foolish. With regards to your defintions in your post, you don't think this "and his immature Fi causes him to pity others' ignorance of the dynamics he observes" fits the scenario of me arguing as well? It seems to me that even your definitions place INFJ and INTJ very close, with nothing more than a slip between them basically.

[obnoxious]

It could fit, but I can`t see an INTJ going about it in quite the same way. You say there`s only a slip of difference in the definitions, but it snowballs into that whole butterfly effect thing and the respective styles of types become more discernible.



Give me a moment while I try to be less vague.




First of all, your quick addressing of the social/cultural function of this forum suggests an Fe preference. An INTJ would not address 'unfairness' so much as 'inefficiency'. His Fi would take quite a value laden stance on what he/she considers to be the correct modus operandum of an INTJ forum given the nature of the type, and point out structural inefficiencies preventing this from occurring.


You, on the other hand, with your pesky use of Ti are simply arguing about cultural fairness on a global scale (well, this is functionally the same as retards getting sterilized or germans being nazis by proxy)


Fe isn't emotional, and Ni is supremely detached, cause it's the removal of oneself from the immediate situation that allows for perspective to be gained. Which is why you can make your arguments as serious as they need to be for you to defend your position without actually being attached to your position or the argument, except in this context and except for the logic in them (which you value highly)

Whereas Fi is emotional, and the INTJ will not take a stand unless he is attached to it, what he is not attached to are the Te elements that push his position forward. You are attached to the nature of debate (NiTi) and how you excel is identifying the terms others use so you can discern their function and find a way around them ((Ni)Fe)


And syke, i have no second of all.

[Paul Siraisi]

1) You pass the INTP paragraph length test with flying colors.
2) Your post is a classic case of INTP noodling.

INTP all the way.

[LiveNotOnEvil]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1) You pass the INTP paragraph length test with flying colors. 2) Your post is a classic case of INTP noodling. INTP all the way.

Long posts are INTP indicative? Never knew thar
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EDIT: I keep reading the descrips of INTJs and INTPs and they both fit me. Where one falls apart the other makes up for it and vice-versa. There's no way for me to decide because they both have truths in them but neither have absolutes, but both are close. INFJ falls flat on it's face when it says that you 'trust your intuition and are good at interpreting people', which I'm not either of.

[scorpiomover]

Originally Posted by LiveNotOnEvil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can come up with weird reasoning that only makes sense for me. But for the puposes of argument I use a smother out the flames approach, which is typically universally logical. What that basically means is to: "Surround the opposition's arguments, contradict their (flawed) assertions by providing logically contradictory assertions, as supported by evidence. Then explain overall how this makes their theory fall apart and why it is doesn't work. If they argue back then you merely keep providing evidence to their new arguments which will inevitably have to rest on their old arguments, until the flames are completely smothered and they have no where to go." That's basically the gist of how I conduct myself in arguments, but then again I've noticed most people on this forum do the same.

Your strategy of trying to keep shooting arguments at people until they give up, is clearly that of INTJs. So is keeping on shoving evidence at them. However, your tactics, that of using logic to do so, is clearly INTP.

	Originally Posted by LiveNotOnEvil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So I'm just some weird hybrid INTP/INTJ?

From what I've read of your descriptions, your defaullt behaviour is INTP. Your conscious choices and behaviours are the same as INTJs. According to Jung, the dominant and auxiliary functions refer to the conscious self, with the tertiary and inferior functions being in the subconscious, and acting as compensatory to the conscious. However, that still does not explain why you default to conscious INTP so often.

I propose an Ne solution, using Si: Jung pointed out that the type changes throughout life. You could have been an INTP when you were young. But you changed to be much more INTJ-ish, and it's got so much, that you are acting very like an INTJ. Very possibly, something happened to you, some kind of physical and/or emotional trauma, that made you change. I know someone who something similar happened to. However, that would not answer why you consciously behave like an INTJ. So I reckon that there is probably some kind of personal choice on your part.

Maybe you got fed up of all of the problems that INTPs suffer with when young, and in the last few years, you made a very conscious effort to be much more productive and decisive. Maybe something happened to you, that made you decide you want to be a lot more productive and decisive. You've been consciously doing that for enough time, that these days, when you consciously try to do anything, you do it the INTJ way. But still, your default nature is not yet completely eliminated, and so when you aren't trying, you still act INTP-ish.

You can class yourself as INTx, if you want, or INTP, or INTJ. But since Jung, and MBTI, type the conscious behaviour, and your conscious choices are INTJ-ish, if someone asked me what your type was, I would say INTJ, with a bit of INTP-ishness thrown in, when you're not that bothered. That could lead to a mature INTJ, if you let your INTP-ishness filter also into your INTJ-ish side, and vice versa. But since it's a conscious choice, I doubt you'll let that happen.

	Originally Posted by obnoxious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No see you're still looking at symptoms and making useless generalized statements. If it isn'rt accurate to say all psychologists are NFs and all scientists are NTs (even the important ones in their respective fields) then don't bother saying it at all.

That's why I wrote "the INTJ theories tend to be more", "often specialising", "like physics", "INFJ theories specialise" (specialise just means that's your main but not only, area of focus. If you want, you can penalise me for not saying "often specialising" there), "like psychology", "INTJs tend to be focussed on", and "INFJs tend to be very willing to".

It helps to remember that INTPs tend to be very careful with their choice of words, and to pay close attention to our choice of words, to understand what we wrote.

Also, why do you keep trying to type everyone as INFJs? I've seen you try to type Einstein as an INFJ, the OP, and IIRC, Jung. Have you considered that you might be projecting, and that it might be because your subconscious is trying to tell you via your Ni messages, that you are really an INFJ? I gather that this sort of subconscious communication is common with N, and really strongly with Ni.

[LiveNotOnEvil]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Your strategy of trying to keep shooting arguments at people until they give up, is clearly that of INTJs. So is keeping on shoving evidence at them. However, your tactics, that of using logic to do so, is clearly INTP.

INTJs don't use logic? *raises on eyebrow*

Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

From what I've read of your descriptions, your defaullt behaviour is INTP. Your conscious choices and behaviours are the same as INTJs. According to Jung, the dominant and auxiliary functions refer to the conscious self, with the tertiary and inferior functions being in the subconscious, and acting as compensatory to the conscious. However, that still does not explain why you default to conscious INTP so often.

Many of the things I do tend towards INTP, such as pulling thing apart to see how they work. I once let down my pc firewall until I got a couple of viruses, caught them, dissasembled the code and enjoyed. The dissasemblers unfortunately didn't work too well.

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I propose an Ne solution, using Si: Jung pointed out that the type changes throughout life. You could have been an INTP when you were young. But you changed to be much more INTJ-ish, and it's got so much, that you are acting very like an INTJ.

I used to be much more flippant and subject to whimsy when I was a kid, but found that it generally got me nowhere and only caused problems. Took me too long to realise that.

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Very possibly, something happened to you, some kind of physical and/or emotional trauma, that made you change. I know someone who something similar happened to. However, that would not answer why you consciously behave like an INTJ. So I reckon that there is probably some kind of personal choice on your part.

Not any that I can think of. I consciously began making plans for things and following my own rulesets in a compulsive way, if that is INTJ behaviour. Perhaps it came down to wanting to succeed with education once I realise I was a lazy bastard or something?

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe you got fed up of all of the problems that INTPs suffer with when young, and in the last few years, you made a very conscious effort to be much more productive and decisive.

Kind of yes, as this didn't start really hapenning until my late teens.

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe something happened to you, that made you decide you want to be a lot more productive and decisive. You've been consciously doing that for enough time, that these days, when you consciously try to do anything, you do it the INTJ way. But still, your default nature is not yet completely eliminated, and so when you aren't trying, you still act INTP-ish.

I hope that means I get the best of both worlds
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Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You can class yourself as INTx, if you want, or INTP, or INTJ. But since Jung, and MBTI, type the conscious behaviour, and your conscious choices are INTJ-ish, if someone asked me what your type was, I would say INTJ, with a bit of INTP-ishness thrown in, when you're not that bothered. That could lead to a mature INTJ, if you let your INTP-ishness filter also into your INTJ-ish side, and vice versa. But since it's a conscious choice, I doubt you'll let that happen.

Both of them have benefits though, so it would only be good in maintaining both. Kind of like being a tranny.

[Distance]

I have a theory. You've avoided
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in the other thread so I'm putting it here. Take it. You'll like it.

[LiveNotOnEvil]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have a theory. You've avoided To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. in the other thread so I'm putting it here. Take it. You'll like it.

I answered it as accurately as one can answer a test like that, but I somewhat disagree with the impractilcal part, as I can be practical a lot of the time:

Big Five Test Results

Extroversion |||||||||| 38%
Orderliness |||||||||||||||| 66%
Emotional Stability |||||||||||||| 52%
Accommodation |||||||||| 34%
Inquisitiveness |||||||||||||||| 70%

Extroversion results were moderately low which suggests you are reclusive, quiet, unassertive, and private.

Orderliness results were moderately high which suggests you are, at times, overly organized, neat, structured and restrained at the expense too often of flexibility, variety, spontaneity, and fun.

Emotional Stability results were medium which suggests you average somewhere in between being calm and resilient and being anxious and reactive.

Accommodation results were moderately low which suggests you are, at times, overly selfish, uncooperative, and difficult at the expense of the well being of others.

Inquisitiveness results were high which suggests you are very intellectual, curious, imaginative but possibly not very practical.

Your Global5/SLOAN type is RCOEI
Your Primary type is Inquisitive

[Distance]

Your results loosely map to INTJ.

I would have typed you as some form of eTp, most likely eNTp.
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[LiveNotOnEvil]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Your results loosely map to INTJ. I would have typed you as some form of eTp, most likely eNTp. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Why an E?
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[Distance]

	Originally Posted by LiveNotOnEvil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why an E? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

More interactive, agitating for interaction.

Wouldn't have pegged you as an INTJ by a long shot.

[LiveNotOnEvil]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	More interactive, agitating for interaction. Wouldn't have pegged you as an INTJ by a long shot.

I'm like that online because I consider it amusing. In real life I hate parties, large crowds/groups, have next to no friends, have never had a gf and avoid people by general principle, if I can, unless they're friends. Everyone is an E online because it's just the way it is.
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[Distance]

	Originally Posted by LiveNotOnEvil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm like that online because I consider it amusing. In real life I hate parties, large crowds/groups, have next to no friends, have never had a gf and avoid people by general principle, if I can, unless they're friends. Everyone is an E online because it's just the way it is. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm an eNTJ that while comfortable with large crowds and people, prefer to do my own thing. Don't be so quick to throw out the possibility of being an E.

NTs can be strange extroverts, while not all, many can be since we're more interested in tasks or information, than people. So often, extrovert means people oriented with these online tests where instead, extroverts draw energy and concept inspiration from their environments. If people happen to be floating around, that's okay too....sometimes...

[LiveNotOnEvil]

Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm an eNTJ that while comfortable with large crowds and people, prefer to do my own thing. Don't be so quick to throw out the possibility of being an E. NTs can be strange extroverts, while not all, many can be since we're more interested in tasks or information, than people. So often, extrovert means people oriented with these online tests where instead, extroverts draw energy and concept inspiration from their environments. If people happen to be floating around, that's okay too....sometimes...

Preferring to do one's own thing is a hallmark of an I
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I forced myself to develop a more outgoing personality as a result of the fact that I was pretty much completely antisocial and realised that I needed extroverted traits to get ahead in life.
So how do you know the online tests don't have the correct definition, because we're getting to the point of adapting MBTI here, which many members seem to enjoy, and if you did so you would change the types of perhaps 50% of the members on here based on your assessment of an E :P
The main place I draw inspiration from is seeings things that my own mind enjoys and can twist. Watching some movies and shows has given me inspirational in certain ways before, but it is purely contigent on what elements I choose to focus on and enjoy. One person may see something in a movie and consider it war, whereas I may look at the intellectual elements behind what was required from the war and consider it intellectual strategy, thus inspiring me to learn more etc.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by LiveNotOnEvil To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Preferring to do one's own thing is a hallmark of an I To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of very independent extroverts.

	I forced myself to develop a more outgoing personality as a result of the fact that I was pretty much completely antisocial and realised that I needed extroverted traits to get ahead in life.

So did I during different periods of my life. Sometimes a raging extrovert, times of not, preferring to pull into my own world of interests.

	So how do you know the online tests don't have the correct definition, because we're getting to the point of adapting MBTI here, which many members seem to enjoy, and if you did so you would change the types of perhaps 50% of the members on here based on your assessment of an E :P

Take a long read of
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.