ISFJ and Narcissism

**VinceVanGo** · 09-12-2008, 01:23 PM

Ok, so I've known an ISFJ for almost five years. I'm a gay male and she's a straight female. I mention this because I suspect their may be some underlying attraction that plays into things. We've been living together for about nine months.

I've read posts regarding INTJs and ISFJs, and the outlook seems pretty bleak. I have come to the table openly and honestly and been true to form, but I'm finding that she really doesn't want from me what she says she wants.

I don't know how much this has to do with me being an INTJ, but I get very confused when someone says one thing but behaves in a way that reveals a different agenda. Of course when I point this out--as an honest attempt to understand and adapt, not as an attack--I get anger or lies in return.

I'm trying to do the best I can to overcome my now deeply set opinion of her (and my disappointment and hurt), which will lead me to extricate myself from the relationship. However, the more she senses that I'm on to what's really going on inside her head, which she keeps closely guarded, the more she lashes out passive-agressively, and the more I distance myself. (It's very disconcerting to have someone look me in the eye and swear everything's OK when I know that her behavior is sending a completely different message.)

OK, so here's some questions:
1) Do you INTJs find that you can read people's minds? I don't mean that literally of course, but I find that I pick up little bits of information--sometimes revealed inadvertantly by the other party--and I eventually put together a picture of what is happening emotionally with someone. And then I compare to what they say and either A=B or A<>B. Am I just ASSuming that I know what's going on with someone? Could I be reading the clues all wrong? It's so hard for me to stop constantly comparing what I see to past behavior and information, looking for inconsistencies.

2) Do ISFJs have characteristics similar to narcissists? I ask because my friend's behavior is so extreme that I'm beginning to get concerned for her mental health. I am wondering if she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Everything is always about her. Her kid does well at school and she expects praise for what a great mom she is. Her kid does badly and she feels like a failure. It's very frightening to see a mother look at her child and see no real affection--just a calculation of how this child represents her success or failure right now. And when I interact with her children--something she has praised repeatedly (that I listen and interact with them and don't yell like their father, that I show affection to them, etc.) she inserts herself, I think to ensure that she is the prevailing relationship in their lives (posessiveness). For example, I was talking with her son, and I asked him a question that she then responded to from another room. (i.e. "Joey, did you have a good day at school?" From the other room: "Joey had a great day at school, didn't you, Joey") Fucking BIZARRE!

Anyhow, thanks for any words of guidance, feedback, criticism, etc. I'm really taking a lot of this personally and I just need to be able to talk with someone about this. (We have mutual best friends in common, so I really have no one to whom I can talk without putting them in a difficult position.)

**OneHertz** · 09-12-2008, 04:59 PM

ISFJs are my favorite introverts!

She appears narcissistic because she is HORRIBLY insecure about herself. If you don't tell her that you like her (i.e. enjoy being around her) she will automatically assume that you hate her and hate you right back for it. Voice your appreciation for her whenever you feel any. When she starts liking you, you can begin giving some advice on the less important things. When you turn out to be right, you will begin gaining trust. They really do appreciate help with all the difficult decisions IF they trust you and like you. They make the best roommates!

**ElstonGunn** · 09-12-2008, 05:12 PM

	Originally Posted by VinceVanGo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have come to the table openly and honestly and been true to form, but I'm finding that she really doesn't want from me what she says she wants.

Of course not. She's a female and an SJ-- you're supposed to know without asking.

	Originally Posted by VinceVanGo
	2) Do ISFJs have characteristics similar to narcissists? I ask because my friend's behavior is so extreme that I'm beginning to get concerned for her mental health. I am wondering if she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Everything is always about her.

Any type can have that. INTJs are frequently accused (whether rightly or wrongly) of being narcissistic. It can't be attributed to type, especially since MB type tells you very little about a person.

That being said, I know two confirmed ISFJs: my mother and female friend of mine. I've noticed from both (especially the friend, which raises the question of how age plays into this) that they have strong opinions, but are slow to express them as strongly as the feel them. You're supposed to be nice. You're not supposed to cause a stir. It's not your place to tell other people what's what. That causes a lot of them to let their feelings ferment. "Bad" feelings are especially susceptible to this, but "good" feelings are also affected. You're not supposed to brag. That might be why your ISFJ is... I don't know the right word... domineering, controlling... about her kid.

I'm not entirely sure how to deal with them. Sometimes it helps to say at least one complimentary thing for every negative comment you make about them. Or you could avoid direct negative comments, drop a few hints, and let them figure it out themselves, or ask you (in which case you have a semi-acceptable excuse to be direct).

**OneHertz** · 09-12-2008, 07:24 PM

	Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	avoid direct negative comments, drop a few hints, and let them figure it out themselves, or ask you (in which case you have a semi-acceptable excuse to be direct).

I forgot to mention this, but this works like a charm! If they asked - it's not my fault.

**ElstonGunn** · 09-12-2008, 07:32 PM

	Originally Posted by OneHertz To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I forgot to mention this, but this works like a charm! If they asked - it's not my fault.

But how much of it can you write off as "Well, you asked me."? I've asked people questions with a particular preferred response in mind. (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

**OneHertz** · 09-12-2008, 08:03 PM

	Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But how much of it can you write off as "Well, you asked me."? I've asked people questions with a particular preferred response in mind. (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

I usually have to prep them for it... Hint at something, then have them ask, then say it was nothing, blah blah blah, build up their interest so they start insisting, warn them that they might be upset, and THEN I can say exactly what I want to say and it is generally OK as long as I offer some practical advice to fix whatever problem I pointed out.

**VinceVanGo** · 09-13-2008, 05:44 AM

Thanks. i actually did this and was in good stead with her for a while. Something changed, rather suddenly. This makes me think of the post below regarding something fermenting for a while. when things changed is when she started to be very possessive of her children, not communicating with about her new job or travel plans--all things we used to discuss. I don't really know what happened, except that I have become very important to her children. I Read that as jealousy, but not sure if that's accurate.

**Necrosis** · 09-13-2008, 12:13 PM

For me its almost like you really have to love or enjoy the company of that ISFJ on a serious level. I say this because, I DON't appreciate the little things she did for me. I don't care about the color of chairs. But to say that because it makes her feel better, fine I did it only because I cared on another level.

My ISFJ was very very selfish. If we had an arguement and she clearely did me wrong, it wouldn't matter. I had to apologize because it made her angry to be wrong. End of story. That's very difficult for me to do knowing that I clearly was not at fault. If she cooked me breakfast, it wasn't do u like the breakfast, it was... "Wow i cook so great don't I. I love how great I am for cooking this." She didn't notice the difference in doing for others to boast yourself compared to doing for others without reason.

Most times I would just wait when I was angry because situations would always come up where it would prove I was right. When that happened, she would bring it up and bamb theres my chance to explain it all. It's important not to do it all at one time. Slowly say things that you see are a problem in REAL LIFE, not with her. if you mention its her she's going to hide and resort to her feelings. Then praise in some way something they do or else theyll feel worthless.

You really have to accept that the relationship is going to be this way for the most part, or it's going to drive you nuts. People are who they are, I don't believe people change completely, however, with time and trust she can begin to understand more what makes you tick and what doesn't. She just has to trust you and that takes alot of time.

As for MIND READING, yes, I do that all the time to her and she hates it. She takes it as, "you think you know me". Until what I know is going to happen actually happens. So things that I can predict or notice, I keep to myself and prepare for it on my own.

**VinceVanGo** · 09-14-2008, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by srod511
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My ISFJ was very very selfish. If we had an arguement and she clearely did me wrong, it wouldn't matter. I had to apologize because it made her angry to be wrong. End of story. That's very difficult for me to do knowing that I clearly was not at fault. If she cooked me breakfast, it wasn't do u like the breakfast, it was... "Wow i cook so great don't I. I love how great I am for cooking this." She didn't notice the difference in doing for others to boast yourself compared to doing for others without reason.

Thanks, this really helps. I totally relate to the part above. My life is EXACTLY like that. Everything exists as a way to gauge how great or bad she is. It makes it impossible to say anything, because it will always come across as a judgment of her. If I say "this room needs to be painted" she hears "you haven't painted this room in years and it looks like crap and you are a bad person because of it and everything you do is shit." And I'm not exaggerating. I don't think I can live like this.

**OneHertz** · 09-14-2008, 02:50 PM

You have to build the relationship properly from the start so she trusts you and doesn't see all your opinions as ways to insult her. If she believes you are truly trying to help then she will be grateful for it. Look what an ISFJ female said to me just today:

ISFJ: gota say <myname>
ISFJ: you've been a wonderful support
ISFJ: I would try to explain how much I appreciate it but it would sound retarded
ISFJ: just know that I do
ISFJ: <3

I don't have to hold anything back from her and she always appreciates my objective analysis of the things that go on in her life no matter how raw I present it.

**Necrosis** · 09-14-2008, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by OneHertz
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You have to build the relationship properly from the start so she trusts you and doesn't see all your opinions as ways to insult her. If she believes you are truly trying to help then she will be grateful for it. Look what an ISFJ female said to me just today:

ISFJ: gota say <myname>
ISFJ: you've been a wonderful support
ISFJ: I would try to explain how much I appreciate it but it would sound retarded
ISFJ: just know that I do
ISFJ: <3

I don't have to hold anything back from her and she always appreciates my objective analysis of the things that go on in her life no matter how raw I present it.

That is def true. After some time, I do believe there is a difference. Granted you can never change who a person is but it won't be easy to gain the trust required for that kind of conversation. The issue becomes, why spend all this time trying to gain the trust of someone who is irritating the hell out of you. That goes back to really trying to care about someone enough to have them open up to you.

**fillmore** · 09-14-2008, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by VinceVanGo
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Everything exists as a way to gauge how great or bad she is. It makes it impossible to say anything, because it will always come across as a judgment of her. If I say "this room needs to be painted" she hears "you haven't painted this room in years and it looks like crap and you are a bad person because of it and everything you do is shit." And I'm not exaggerating. I don't think I can live like this.

1.) Feel like an object? To narcissists people are objects. They never really care about you and good luck trying to gain their trust. They can't trust, love, or appreciate. Worst of all, when they're done with you they just throw you away.

2.) Walking on eggshells? Narcissists can't take criticism because it hurts the frail false image that they hold on to.

I'd say listen to your gut man. I'm a guy and I just got out of a three year relationship with a girl that I believe to have been a narcissist. That's why I felt compelled to reply. Usually I just lurk. Read up. Only you can decide if she is or is not. None of us know her. I think the number one thing to look for is...

How does she treat and talk about other people? Past friends, bfs, etc... What were her past relationships like? Thats something to really pay attention to... because down the line she's bound to talk about and treat you like that- even if you don't think she would or will.

I think intjs provide good supply for narcissists... if you're anything like me, you tend to be extremely loyal and dedicated to people you care about. Narcissists will eat the up.

Be careful, best of luck.

**VinceVanGo** · 09-15-2008, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by fillmore
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1.)
How does she treat and talk about other people? Past friends, bfs, etc... What were her past relationships like? Thats something to really pay attention to... because down the line she's bound to talk about and treat you like that- even if you don't think she would or will.

I think intjs provide good supply for narcissists... if you're anything like me, you tend to be extremely loyal and dedicated to people you care about. Narcissists will eat the up.

Be careful, best of luck.

Thanks. I did start to realize that she is hyper-critical of a certain person in her family who I find to be exactly like her. Very controlling and emasculating of her husband. That's when I realized how little she actually sees her own behavior. I'm critical of people too, but I'm also well aware of my own issues, and many times I'll phrase something by acknowledging if I am similar or something. She never sees that part of it.

I know I've been good supply for her, and I know that once I stopped that, she immediately pulled away. No concern for me and what may have been going on with me; just feel that she's been found out (I'm reading into this of course) and self-preservation through denial.

Sadly I think I've given all I can give.

**Synamon** · 09-15-2008, 11:52 AM

I do the "mind reading" thing, I think of it as getting inside someone's head. You have to be able to put yourself into someone else's shoes to do it. Lots of people are uncomfortable and do not want you seeing into their thoughts, I mostly keep things to myself, even telling them that you understand where they are coming from can alienate people.

Passive-aggressive behavior can be rooted in denial or feeling disconnected, looks like you've already figured that out. She has probably had success in the past getting what she wants by acting out, but it's a very bad way to try and manipulate an INTJ, it raised your hackles obviously. She is putting up walls that I doubt you can tear down.

You really can't change anyone's behavior except your own.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

**illume** · 09-15-2008, 01:31 PM

I think if you read many of these MBTI personality based forums you will find that ISFJ give people fits. They are incredibly hard to understand because in my experience they are always trying to be perfect. They never say what they mean or mean what they say. As an intuitive you must figure out how to stay ahead of them all the time. They think you do not know what they are about and they will deny it wholeheartedly when you comment on their ill-disguised actions. I am too honest most of the time and call my ISFJ friend down on what I call his bull-shitty cover-ups. He gets pissed at me and his feelings get hurt, but this whole ISFJ goody-goody subterfuge thing makes me insane. Why can't I just say what I think without all of this other weirdness? I am a very kind hearted person, but I am not sensitive enough or willing enough to play along with this person's need to pretend that he is perfect and never does anything wrong!!!

**Necrosis** · 09-15-2008, 03:50 PM

Thinking about my ISFJ and the comments of people on this page I asked myself this question today... is it fair to just dismiss the ISFJ b/c we aren't willing to deal with them. I know there selfish and think only of how they feel, but don't INTJS only care about how they work and don't people see us as arrogant. People run from us as much as they run from ISFJ. I know tons of people who aren't willing to take the time to meet me and understand me because I simply don't let them. Maybe it is unfair to completely dismiss them because they rely only on emotions while I rely only on facts. Can I say there wrong? Sure. They are tons of times. Emotions aren't defined. But how can people help who they are. I'm not saying we should deal with it and fix them or anything like but to dismiss them because we can't take how they act; well people do that to me all the time. I think it's because I'm to unwilling to let down who I am to be with them, and they are to unwilling to let down who they are to be with me. Okay enough rambling just my .02c while bored in class.

**VinceVanGo** · 09-15-2008, 07:00 PM

	Originally Posted by srod511 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Thinking about my ISFJ ...

I agree that we can't dismiss an entire group. That's why you'll hear people on this site talk about the "mature" XXXX or the "immature" XXXX. The personality types themselves are not good or bad, they just are. It's the individual's self-awareness and maturity level that is the determining factor for me. When someone is in the immature phase they tend to be the extreme of that type. That's certainly what I'm dealing with.

I have struggled with being an INTJ, and after getting certain feedback at work and in other relationships I learned to balance myself. I actually love it when someone challenges me by critiquing something I say or do. That allowed me to be who I am but also tone down some of the aspects of my personality that are typically perceived negatively.

If we all strive for that we can learn from each other and balance out our relationships.

**fillmore** · 09-15-2008, 08:12 PM

the issue is whether vango's friend is a narcissist or not. Any type can be a narcissist.

narcissists dont care about you and arent worth understanding or keeping as a friend.

thats just my 2cents.

**Necrosis** · 09-16-2008, 04:54 AM

	Originally Posted by fillmore To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	the issue is whether vango's friend is a narcissist or not. Any type can be a narcissist. narcissists dont care about you and arent worth understanding or keeping as a friend. thats just my 2cents.

When I read the discription of ISFJ, narcissism, Vango's topic and my exp... I would say it sounds like it to me. The question then becomes since he knows her best, is she mature enough to listen and set boundaries. If not, then I think it's like talking to a wall.

**PortInStorm** · 09-16-2008, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by illume
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I think if you read many of these MBTI personality based forums you will find that ISFJ give people fits. They are incredibly hard to understand because in my experience they are always trying to be perfect. They never say what they mean or mean what they say. As an intuitive you must figure out how to stay ahead of them all the time. They think you do not know what they are about and they will deny it wholeheartedly when you comment on their ill-disguised actions. I am too honest most of the time and call my ISFJ friend down on what I call his bull-shitty cover-ups. He gets pissed at me and his feelings get hurt, but this whole ISFJ goody-goody subterfuge thing makes me insane. Why can't I just say what I think without all of this other weirdness? I am a very kind hearted person, but I am not sensitive enough or willing enough to play along with this person's need to pretend that he is perfect and never does anything wrong!!!

I think xSFJs tend to be like that- exactly as you described. They cannot (are not allowed) to have negative feelings so they either stuff it or transfer that to someone else. I even have a difficult time describing how this happens- they avoid something, or have negative feelings, then when the negative result of their passive-aggressiveness occurs, they blame it on your bad feelings (even if you didn't have any!)

In one of my relationships we were planning to visit someone in the hospital. He had to go run an errand after work, then came home and had dinner. While he was eating, I was just waiting, chilling out watching some documentary thing. So he leisurely finishes, and when we're taking stuff out to the kitchen at the end of the show,
me: "So, you wanna go visit Bob?"
him: "Jeez, visiting hours are WAY over! We can't go now!"
me: "Why didn't you say anything? We were going to go tonight."
him: "You looked so comfortable watching the show"

Seems innocent enough- but I knew from experience that he had no problem letting me know we were going to be late for something, in a polite way. So he didn't want to go (he didn't rush his dinner or postpone it til after), but didn't want to admit it so he blamed me.

It's actually amazing what they can do to keep from feeling badly about their own legitimate negative emotion. I wish they were easier on themselves because some are(at least this one was) really amazing people who would feel such release if they allowed themselves a full range of affect. They can use NTs because we are often seen as cold-hearted anyways, making us perfect scapegoats. Then they can keep their pristine image.

**VinceVanGo** · 09-16-2008, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by PortInStorm
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I think xSFJs tend to be like that- exactly as you described. They cannot (are not allowed) to have negative feelings so they either stuff it or transfer that to someone else. ...
It's actually amazing what they can do to keep from feeling badly about their own legitimate negative emotion. I wish they were easier on themselves because some are(at least this one was) really amazing people who would feel such release if they allowed themselves a full range of affect. They can use NTs because we are often seen as cold-hearted anyways, making us perfect scapegoats. Then they can keep their pristine image.

This is so true. Here's a really dumb analogy, but one I thought of while pondering this along time ago: When I was living at home we had a dog, and he would stand with his front paws on the window sill looking out waiting for my dad to come home. One time while standing there he farted. It never occurred to me that a dog wouldn't understand what a fart was, but he quickly looked behind him, ready to bite whatever was attacking from behind. It was very funny!

I see my friend as having a feeling and looking around to see who caused it. And g_d help you if you're in the room at the time because she will unleash upon you a wrath the likes of which you have not seen. All because she had a "bad" feeling.

It is very sad, as you say, that people like this cannot allow themselves to feel. (It's amazing for an INTJ like me to say that!) My friend is, on many other levels, an incredible person with much to offer the people in her life. But when you constantly blame other people for normal feelings, every relationship has a very finite shelf life, because the anger and resentment build up on both sides--the blamer and the blamee.

That was something I read on one of the MBTI web sites: that INTJs and ISFJs will get along at first, but the relationship will eventually fail once the ISFJ let's her guard down and stops pretending.

**Necrosis** · 09-16-2008, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by VinceVanGo
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This is so true. Here's a really dumb analogy, but one I thought of while pondering this along time ago: When I was living at home we had a dog, and he would stand with his front paws on the window sill looking out waiting for my dad to come home. One time while standing there he farted. It never occurred to me that a dog wouldn't understand what a fart was, but he quickly looked behind him, ready to bite whatever was attacking from behind. It was very funny!

I see my friend as having a feeling and looking around to see who caused it. And g_d help you if you're in the room at the time because she will unleash upon you a wrath the likes of which you have not seen. All because she had a "bad" feeling.

It is very sad, as you say, that people like this cannot allow themselves to feel. (It's amazing for an INTJ like me to say that!) My friend is, on many other levels, an incredible person with much to offer the people in her life. But when you constantly blame other people for normal feelings, every relationship has a very finite shelf life, because the anger and resentment build up on both sides--the blamer and the blamee.

That was something I read on one of the MBTI web sites: that INTJs and ISFJs will get along at first, but the relationship will eventually fail once the ISFJ let's her guard down and stops pretending.

That's exactly what happened in my relationship. She was too afraid at first to trust me and be herself because she hated fights. Because she was a feeler, to me i enjoyed the positive company. As much as I dont feel, it was good at first to hear your amazing all the time. But then the real side came out. just as often as she can say your amazing, she can also say f* you simply b/c she cant handle how bad she feels. ive seen it time and time again. its caused her drama at work and at school. several failed friendships and seroius abandonment. and its true. despite what you may think. in the end she will treat you as she does anyone else. if you leave her she will feel destoryed and abandoned and therefore you almsot become her enemy even if you were the best thing that ever happened to her. its sad indeed. the only way to make it work is with rules and that only comes if she is willing to understand what is happening in the first place.

**Antares** · 09-16-2008, 08:37 AM

ISFJ Mother: Do you know how badly this reflects upon ME? < Sums up everything.

**illume** · 09-16-2008, 08:58 AM

For the ISFJ's I know, I have decided that there is a complete lack of introspection. They never allow themselves to look inside and really examine what their real wants, needs, desires are.

**Necrosis** · 09-16-2008, 09:01 AM

	Originally Posted by illume To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For the ISFJ's I know, I have decided that there is a complete lack of introspection. They never allow themselves to look inside and really examine what their real wants, needs, desires are.

For the majority of time yes, but not entirely. Mine was able to do that but not during the fight. After we spoke a few hours later she would understand. But it's painstakingly slow and annoying. She always knew what she needed but wasn't able to realize how to get it or where to get it from so would always just come to me. The difficuly of working with other ppl b/c it's always their opinion made it hard to get what she needed.

09-12-2008, 01:23 PM	#1
VinceVanGo Member [04%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 173	Ok, so I've known an ISFJ for almost five years. I'm a gay male and she's a straight female. I mention this because I suspect their may be some underlying attraction that plays into things. We've been living together for about nine months. I've read posts regarding INTJs and ISFJs, and the outlook seems pretty bleak. I have come to the table openly and honestly and been true to form, but I'm finding that she really doesn't want from me what she says she wants. I don't know how much this has to do with me being an INTJ, but I get very confused when someone says one thing but behaves in a way that reveals a different agenda. Of course when I point this out--as an honest attempt to understand and adapt, not as an attack--I get anger or lies in return. I'm trying to do the best I can to overcome my now deeply set opinion of her (and my disappointment and hurt), which will lead me to extricate myself from the relationship. However, the more she senses that I'm on to what's really going on inside her head, which she keeps closely guarded, the more she lashes out passive-agressively, and the more I distance myself. (It's very disconcerting to have someone look me in the eye and swear everything's OK when I know that her behavior is sending a completely different message.) OK, so here's some questions: 1) Do you INTJs find that you can read people's minds? I don't mean that literally of course, but I find that I pick up little bits of information--sometimes revealed inadvertantly by the other party--and I eventually put together a picture of what is happening emotionally with someone. And then I compare to what they say and either A=B or A<>B. Am I just ASSuming that I know what's going on with someone? Could I be reading the clues all wrong? It's so hard for me to stop constantly comparing what I see to past behavior and information, looking for inconsistencies. 2) Do ISFJs have characteristics similar to narcissists? I ask because my friend's behavior is so extreme that I'm beginning to get concerned for her mental health. I am wondering if she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Everything is always about her. Her kid does well at school and she expects praise for what a great mom she is. Her kid does badly and she feels like a failure. It's very frightening to see a mother look at her child and see no real affection--just a calculation of how this child represents her success or failure right now. And when I interact with her children--something she has praised repeatedly (that I listen and interact with them and don't yell like their father, that I show affection to them, etc.) she inserts herself, I think to ensure that she is the prevailing relationship in their lives (posessiveness). For example, I was talking with her son, and I asked him a question that she then responded to from another room. (i.e. "Joey, did you have a good day at school?" From the other room: "Joey had a great day at school, didn't you, Joey") Fucking BIZARRE! Anyhow, thanks for any words of guidance, feedback, criticism, etc. I'm really taking a lot of this personally and I just need to be able to talk with someone about this. (We have mutual best friends in common, so I really have no one to whom I can talk without putting them in a difficult position.)
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09-12-2008, 04:59 PM	#2
OneHertz Member [24%] MBTI: ISTJ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 995	ISFJs are my favorite introverts! She appears narcissistic because she is HORRIBLY insecure about herself. If you don't tell her that you like her (i.e. enjoy being around her) she will automatically assume that you hate her and hate you right back for it. Voice your appreciation for her whenever you feel any. When she starts liking you, you can begin giving some advice on the less important things. When you turn out to be right, you will begin gaining trust. They really do appreciate help with all the difficult decisions IF they trust you and like you. They make the best roommates!
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09-13-2008, 05:44 AM	#7
VinceVanGo Member [04%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 173	Thanks. i actually did this and was in good stead with her for a while. Something changed, rather suddenly. This makes me think of the post below regarding something fermenting for a while. when things changed is when she started to be very possessive of her children, not communicating with about her new job or travel plans--all things we used to discuss. I don't really know what happened, except that I have become very important to her children. I Read that as jealousy, but not sure if that's accurate.
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09-13-2008, 12:13 PM	#8
Necrosis Core Member [102%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,113	For me its almost like you really have to love or enjoy the company of that ISFJ on a serious level. I say this because, I DON't appreciate the little things she did for me. I don't care about the color of chairs. But to say that because it makes her feel better, fine I did it only because I cared on another level. My ISFJ was very very selfish. If we had an arguement and she clearely did me wrong, it wouldn't matter. I had to apologize because it made her angry to be wrong. End of story. That's very difficult for me to do knowing that I clearly was not at fault. If she cooked me breakfast, it wasn't do u like the breakfast, it was... "Wow i cook so great don't I. I love how great I am for cooking this." She didn't notice the difference in doing for others to boast yourself compared to doing for others without reason. Most times I would just wait when I was angry because situations would always come up where it would prove I was right. When that happened, she would bring it up and bamb theres my chance to explain it all. It's important not to do it all at one time. Slowly say things that you see are a problem in REAL LIFE, not with her. if you mention its her she's going to hide and resort to her feelings. Then praise in some way something they do or else theyll feel worthless. You really have to accept that the relationship is going to be this way for the most part, or it's going to drive you nuts. People are who they are, I don't believe people change completely, however, with time and trust she can begin to understand more what makes you tick and what doesn't. She just has to trust you and that takes alot of time. As for MIND READING, yes, I do that all the time to her and she hates it. She takes it as, "you think you know me". Until what I know is going to happen actually happens. So things that I can predict or notice, I keep to myself and prepare for it on my own.
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09-14-2008, 02:50 PM	#10
OneHertz Member [24%] MBTI: ISTJ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 995	You have to build the relationship properly from the start so she trusts you and doesn't see all your opinions as ways to insult her. If she believes you are truly trying to help then she will be grateful for it. Look what an ISFJ female said to me just today: ISFJ: gota say <myname> ISFJ: you've been a wonderful support ISFJ: I would try to explain how much I appreciate it but it would sound retarded ISFJ: just know that I do ISFJ: <3 I don't have to hold anything back from her and she always appreciates my objective analysis of the things that go on in her life no matter how raw I present it.
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09-15-2008, 11:52 AM	#14
Synamon Core Member [465%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 18,616	I do the "mind reading" thing, I think of it as getting inside someone's head. You have to be able to put yourself into someone else's shoes to do it. Lots of people are uncomfortable and do not want you seeing into their thoughts, I mostly keep things to myself, even telling them that you understand where they are coming from can alienate people. Passive-aggressive behavior can be rooted in denial or feeling disconnected, looks like you've already figured that out. She has probably had success in the past getting what she wants by acting out, but it's a very bad way to try and manipulate an INTJ, it raised your hackles obviously. She is putting up walls that I doubt you can tear down. You really can't change anyone's behavior except your own. Welcome to the forum, by the way.
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09-15-2008, 01:31 PM	#15
illume New Member [01%] MBTI: enfp Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16	I think if you read many of these MBTI personality based forums you will find that ISFJ give people fits. They are incredibly hard to understand because in my experience they are always trying to be perfect. They never say what they mean or mean what they say. As an intuitive you must figure out how to stay ahead of them all the time. They think you do not know what they are about and they will deny it wholeheartedly when you comment on their ill-disguised actions. I am too honest most of the time and call my ISFJ friend down on what I call his bull-shitty cover-ups. He gets pissed at me and his feelings get hurt, but this whole ISFJ goody-goody subterfuge thing makes me insane. Why can't I just say what I think without all of this other weirdness? I am a very kind hearted person, but I am not sensitive enough or willing enough to play along with this person's need to pretend that he is perfect and never does anything wrong!!!
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09-15-2008, 03:50 PM	#16
Necrosis Core Member [102%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,113	Thinking about my ISFJ and the comments of people on this page I asked myself this question today... is it fair to just dismiss the ISFJ b/c we aren't willing to deal with them. I know there selfish and think only of how they feel, but don't INTJS only care about how they work and don't people see us as arrogant. People run from us as much as they run from ISFJ. I know tons of people who aren't willing to take the time to meet me and understand me because I simply don't let them. Maybe it is unfair to completely dismiss them because they rely only on emotions while I rely only on facts. Can I say there wrong? Sure. They are tons of times. Emotions aren't defined. But how can people help who they are. I'm not saying we should deal with it and fix them or anything like but to dismiss them because we can't take how they act; well people do that to me all the time. I think it's because I'm to unwilling to let down who I am to be with them, and they are to unwilling to let down who they are to be with me. Okay enough rambling just my .02c while bored in class.
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09-15-2008, 08:12 PM	#18
fillmore New Member [01%] MBTI: intj Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4	the issue is whether vango's friend is a narcissist or not. Any type can be a narcissist. narcissists dont care about you and arent worth understanding or keeping as a friend. thats just my 2cents.
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09-16-2008, 08:37 AM	#23
Antares Core Member [175%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,029	ISFJ Mother: Do you know how badly this reflects upon ME? < Sums up everything.
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09-16-2008, 08:58 AM	#24
illume New Member [01%] MBTI: enfp Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16	For the ISFJ's I know, I have decided that there is a complete lack of introspection. They never allow themselves to look inside and really examine what their real wants, needs, desires are.
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