[Distance]

	Originally Posted by davai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Only in an non-attached state is it possible to come close to that over used concept we all love to band about - choice.

Choice is real. In this we'll have to disagree most vehemently.

[Haumea]

Oddly i think the only way to detach is by being more aware than usual. So it's not so much repressing, it's allowing all of that to flow through you and to not be swept away into identification, which is the normal state. This gives us the illusion of will and cohesion, whereas in the advanced state this is seen for what it really is. Only in an non-attached state is it possible to come close to that over used concept we all love to band about - choice. The recent (last 20 years) work in neuroscience is supporting this view.

This.

It's not repressing or ignoring your desires, it's losing your identification with and attachment to your desires.

	Choice is real. In this we'll have to disagree most vehemently.

Actually, in your model the only choice is to repress or ignore or not to repress or ignore.

Because there's no room for transcending the dilemma.

[Distance]

Inauthenticity.

[Haumea]

It's kind of like, if you're presented with two unfavorable options, pick the third.

Paradox breaker.

[Distance]

Assumption of unfavourable. All the good stuff is in humanity.

[Haumea]

Assumption is implicitly yours - unless you think all desires are an an unalloyed good. I can think of many that lead to suffering.

[Distance]

Seeking nectar in layers of dust. God meme needs to die.

[Tejeira]

In my experience, I have to be in the grips of an internal struggle in order to have a starting point for seeking enlightenment. When I am feeling comfortable with everything, I have not motivation to seek, and gain nothing from meditation.

Enlightment has served as a counterweight to internal disturbance in my own experience.

When I am in a fight for my soul, my depth, my character, or my sanity, that is when everything goes back to start, and I search for spiritual teachers, experiences, hallucinogens, pathways to grow.

Human suffering is the pathway to my enlightenment.

---------- Post added 07-29-2012 at 03:04 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	also plenty of instances of ‘enlightenment’ like experiences using drugs like LSD. So, I’d be interested to hear about your experiences of, and theories on, enlightenment. Is it a therapeutic brain trick or is there something more to it?

LSD is fantastic for enlightment...why?

Enlightment's goal is to move beyond the superficial construct of your ego-persona. The goal is to find the core animal/spirit/universal truth.

LSD is a shortcut to drop earthly defenses. You cannot describe yourself anymore.....all identities fall away "mother/brother/good student/winner/loser/athlete/failure".

All identities fall away. There is no judgement of you, or anything around you. In a detached state, you notice your pecularities, but assign no meaning nor value to them. As you grow into the experience, even "you" fall away.......and you are nothing and everything. You are energy that is humming with all of the electricity in nature, discharged by the earth, the trees, the moon....and you feel the wind blow past you, and move your hair, but maybe you are not even real anymore? And nature feels like a gift, and the wind feels like a gift, and even your breath and your awareness is your guide to a truth deeper than anything you've heard or seen from humanity. As the defenses, as the material world falls away, as the demands, as the judgments fall away, you can find a truth that gives you peace, that guides you as a compass. And then you are whole.

Namaste
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LSD is kind of like that.
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---------- Post added 07-29-2012 at 03:12 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Haumea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why is it "hard work"? It seems it's only "hard work" if your expectations are exceeding your results. Then it's your expectations that are the problem. I mean, slow progress is better than no progress, right?

This response is wise.

Yes, you should have no expectation.

There is no work. Enlightment is the thirst for universal knowledge, universal truth, a connection with our body that grounds us deeply in the earth. Enlightment seeks to take the work from your shoulders. Enlightment is not requiring of an effort (as Christ referred to in the Matthew 11:30, he said "my yoke is easy and my burden is light." This is the same sentiment you will see over and over again in spiritual traditions.) Enlightment is not meant to "put upon" man, but to "take off suffering, worry, judgement, sorrow" from man.

Progress is determined by your starting point.

If most everything in your life is in balance, then meditation will only heal what disturbance is present at that time. If there are deep internal conflicts, meditation will seek to heal those deeper disturbances.

---------- Post added 07-29-2012 at 03:16 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	lol, over-standing, I think making up your own phraseology is such an INTJ characteristic. I do it all the time at a creative writing class and it drives them nuts. I say 'but you understand what I mean right?', most of the time they say 'yes'. And I think 'what are you complaining about then.

NT's over-stand, over-articulate internally the process they witness.

Master dissectors.

Possibly in greater need of meditation than most?

Calming such an active mind can only give it the ability to rejuvenuate, and incorporate fresher data with a renewed mind.

[davai]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Inauthenticity. Assumption of unfavourable. Seeking nectar in layers of dust.

As much as you like to resist the philosophy, you're also up against a mountain of growing scientific research.

---------- Post added 07-30-2012 at 12:20 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Tejeira To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	NT's [...] Possibly in greater need of meditation than most?

No, though certain varieties may be more suitable. Depends on the specific purpose required at the time.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by davai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As much as you like to resist the philosophy, you're also up against a mountain of growing scientific research.

What is, isn't necessarily what's possible. We're all byproducts of societal constructs/dusty memes.

[davai]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is, isn't necessarily what's possible. We're all byproducts of societal constructs/dusty memes.

I'm not following your reasoning/point.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by davai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not following your reasoning/point.

Define enlightenment.

[Straylight]

Originally Posted by Tejeira To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LSD is fantastic for enlightment...why? Enlightment's goal is to move beyond the superficial construct of your ego-persona. The goal is to find the core animal/spirit/universal truth. LSD is a shortcut to drop earthly defenses. You cannot describe yourself anymore.....all identities fall away "mother/brother/good student/winner/loser/athlete/failure". All identities fall away. There is no judgement of you, or anything around you. In a detached state, you notice your pecularities, but assign no meaning nor value to them. As you grow into the experience, even "you" fall away.......and you are nothing and everything. You are energy that is humming with all of the electricity in nature, discharged by the earth, the trees, the moon....and you feel the wind blow past you, and move your hair, but maybe you are not even real anymore? And nature feels like a gift, and the wind feels like a gift, and even your breath and your awareness is your guide to a truth deeper than anything you've heard or seen from humanity. As the defenses, as the material world falls away, as the demands, as the judgments fall away, you can find a truth that gives you peace, that guides you as a compass. And then you are whole. Namaste To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. LSD is kind of like that. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hi, Thanks for sharing your LSD story, I do like to hear about peoples personal experiences.
I've always assumed that LSD (havent done LSD myself but have done mushrooms which are similar) is just a chemical that makes the brain misfire and cause odd experiences. Like a trick - thats temporarily entertaining. Do you think it's more?

[davai]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Define enlightenment.

The attainment of spiritual knowledge or insight - google dictionary
a final blessed state marked by the absence of desire or suffering - Merriam-Webster

I guess these aren't too bad. "Spiritual" always throws off the rational though, probably needs changing or defining itself.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by davai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The attainment of spiritual knowledge or insight - google dictionary a final blessed state marked by the absence of desire or suffering - Merriam-Webster I guess these aren't too bad. "Spiritual" always throws off the rational though, probably needs changing or defining itself.

Note the tired old memes?

[davai]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Note the tired old memes?

On that basis what good are any words?

It's what they signify that's important, and this is something that's objectively measurable.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by davai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	On that basis what good are any words? It's what they signify that's important, and this is something that's objectively measurable.

It's the circle back to corporeal hatred, one that tired old dudes created. Dusty dogma from dusty dicks.
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[davai]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's the circle back to corporeal hatred, one that tired old dudes created. Dusty dogma from dusty dicks. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But multiple people have explained how this isn't the case. Either we all have our facts about it more or less correct, or you're more knowledgeable about meditation than all of us. Considering your belief system, i wager it's not the latter.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by davai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But multiple people have explained how this isn't the case. Either we all have our facts about it more or less correct, or you're more knowledgeable about meditation than all of us. Considering your belief system, i wager it's not the latter.

Fi outrage at the questioning of construct and beliefs.

Not suggesting I have all the answers. That's your assumption. Where I stand is that in my opinion, the underlying concept of Enlightenment is breaking free from constraints. In order to break free from constraints, why would you embrace dusty tomb constructs?

[davai]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Fi outrage at the questioning of construct and beliefs.

I could say the same for you. I'm not so much outraged though (as i'm sure you're really not) as i am a little confused as to what your point is since it's already been refuted.

	Not suggesting I have all the answers. That's your assumption. Where I stand is that in my opinion, the underlying concept of Enlightenment is breaking free from constraints. In order to break free from constraints, why would you embrace dusty tomb constructs?

"Dusty tomb constructs" is the bias you've layered over the top to discredit what is an observable and testable phenomenon. We can abandon use of the word enlightenment if you'd rather, but this doesn't change what is symbolises. If we don't accept that a word symbolises and means something, then we may as well give up all words.

[Distance]

If you follow the same footsteps, you too can arrive at the same conclusions. But what if there's another way?

:shrugs:

*toddles off*

[Berserker]

It seems a process and a study that is vast, but not personally appealing enough for me to invest in.

I would be interested in how it enhances the faculties of martial artists though.

[Tejeira]

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hi, Thanks for sharing your LSD story, I do like to hear about peoples personal experiences. I've always assumed that LSD (havent done LSD myself but have done mushrooms which are similar) is just a chemical that makes the brain misfire and cause odd experiences. Like a trick - thats temporarily entertaining. Do you think it's more?

It's more if you MAKE it more.

My friends and I would trip with a purpose. We would set up our enviroment with candles, music, incense, water, blankets, everything we needed.

Once we dosed we would listen to all types to music to launch a conversation. We would also read the Bible, the Satanic Verses, tons of spiritual material. Or we would watch crazy shit like Faces of Death, a Clockwork Orange, just anything to bring up a well of FEELING.

Once we started FEELING, we would shut off the stimulus and TALK though and explore the feelings. Then we would kind of wander off in the house or onto the porch and have alone time.

It's not really the type of drug we took to go dancing for the night. We generally dosed in a safe and comfortable environment with the intent to go on an exploration. Of course, it has to be with one of the people you trust most. It won't work like this around acquaintances. Some people can open you up and make you feel safe.

[Reginald X]

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hi, Thanks for sharing your LSD story, I do like to hear about peoples personal experiences. I've always assumed that LSD (havent done LSD myself but have done mushrooms which are similar) is just a chemical that makes the brain misfire and cause odd experiences. Like a trick - thats temporarily entertaining. Do you think it's more?

It doesn't help to think of psychedelics as a laser light show behind your eyelids - it's more like they light up the show behind your eyelids. They show you in a kinda brusque way that misfiring neurons don't just trick you, but that you are a trick of firing neurons...

...okay enough of that koan crap. The point is, things like psychedelics forcibly remove you from your familiar frame of reference, sometimes so much that you are - arguably - a different person than your sober self. Perhaps the "other" mentioned earlier in the thread. Perhaps the human identity is obliterated altogether, perhaps the concept of "identity" altogether. Though not synonymous, reaching these sorts of perspectives are variously considered hallmarks of "enlightenment." Many disdain drugs as a sort of cheater's way to enlightenment, though.

Tripping is effectively "thinking outside of the box" ... in a big way. I guess Tejeira's trying to say that this can be useful, but only if you go in with a constructive mindset. And this can only work in a comfortable setting. (Set & setting.) Similar to meditation, I s'pose.

Personally, regarding enlightenment, I'll just rest on the conservative view that it's an old term for what we'd now call metacognition: thinking about thinking. It's been said in this thread already.

[Straylight]

	Originally Posted by Tejeira To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's more if you MAKE it more. It's not really the type of drug we took to go dancing for the night. We generally dosed in a safe and comfortable environment with the intent to go on an exploration. Of course, it has to be with one of the people you trust most. It won't work like this around acquaintances. Some people can open you up and make you feel safe.

I can understand that you could learn something with this type of LSD experience. I think you were very lucky to have the type of friends and environment which would reduce the 'bad trip' potential. I had a non too constructive experience on hawaiian mushrooms in the middle of Amsterdam once and that is partly the reason I don't think I'd take LSD now.

Do you think your experiences on LSD changed you in a permanent way? or changed the way you lived your life had you not used the drug?

---------- Post added 08-01-2012 at 08:08 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Reginald X To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It doesn't help to think of psychedelics as a laser light show behind your eyelids - it's more like they light up the show behind your eyelids. They show you in a kinda brusque way that misfiring neurons don't just trick you, but that you are a trick of firing neurons...

I have had experiences on mushrooms that have been very much like a light show. Once I was walking down the street and it seemed as if every colour I saw jumped out and hit me right in the face. I literally had to stop and shut my eyes before I could carry on.

	Perhaps the human identity is obliterated altogether, perhaps the concept of "identity" altogether. Though not synonymous, reaching these sorts of perspectives are variously considered hallmarks of "enlightenment." Many disdain drugs as a sort of cheater's way to enlightenment, though.

Given your remarks above it is intriguing to speculate on the idea that LSD could allow access to some sort of highly 'objective' state on mind. And this is has something to do with 'enlightenment'.