[Straylight]

	Originally Posted by bawb To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you have any numbers on murders in the UK? You guessed 70-80% of murders in the US was caused by guns. [It's still not real facts] And we are starting to blur the line between murders and deaths. I'm guessing there were more than the 14 deaths in the UK that year. Humans being as they are, how do they kill each other over there without guns readily available?

There were 853 murders in the UK in 2002 of which 14 were caused by firearms.
There were 16'229 murders in the US in 2002 of which 9369 were caused by firearms.
Thats about 57.7% in 2002 for firearms in the US although another figure said it was 68% in 2006 so 60% caused by firearm is probably fair.

The majority of UK murders are caused by knives and blunt object trauma (including beatings).

It's easier to shoot someone than to either stab them to death or beat them to death. Which is why European and western countries in general that do not have freely available guns have a much lower murder rate per 100'000 people.

[Typhon]

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's easier to shoot someone than to either stab them to death or beat them to death. Which is why European and western countries in general that do not have freely available guns have a much lower murder rate per 100'000 people.

Interesting statistical comparison:


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Are these statistics false as well? Also your statement is very subjective. It's easier to shoot someone than to stab them? Is this is in your experience with knives and firearms, and the
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?

[Straylight]

Originally Posted by Typhon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Interesting statistical comparison: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Are these statistics false as well? Also your statement is very subjective. It's easier to shoot someone than to stab them? Is this is in your experience with knives and firearms, and the To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ?

I'm not running round digging any more stats up. You tell me if they are accurate - it appears to be your side of the argument.
Personally I wouldn't rely on numbers produced in a piece that opened 'some hoplophobic idiot tried to tell me...' (sounds a little partizan from the outset to me).

[Typhon]

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm not running round digging any more stats up. You tell me if they are accurate - it appears to be your side of the argument. Personally I wouldn't rely on numbers produced in a piece that opened 'some hoplophobic idiot tried to tell me...' (sounds a little partizan from the outset to me).

It's obvious that we don't need to keep beating the statistic-game to death. It's sort of my point, in fact, that every side has an agenda to push and can play the numbers game. Hence, why be swayed with reactionary thinking about gun control at all? Why not just accept the risks of life in a society of others and try to plan as best as possible?

[Dangime]

Here's an interesting opinion. Not mine.

My response to a friend who asked: What are your thoughts on the shooting. Mighty interesting timing with the small arms treaty. I expect more of this over the next week. I think it was another mind controlled pawn. There are other coincidences to it also. James Holmes, the Aurora, Colorado shooter who reportedly opened fire at a Batman movie premiere, was a medical student at the University of Colorado, pursuing a PhD in neuroscience, reports ABC News. According to news reports, this sudden violent rampage was completely out of character for James Holmes, who was described as "shy." The New York Times is now reporting: Billy Kromka, a pre-med student at the University of Colorado, Boulder, worked with Mr. Holmes for three months last summer as a research assistant in a lab of at the Anschutz Medical Campus. Mr. Kromka said he was surprised to learn Mr. Holmes was the shooting suspect. "It was just shocking, because there was no way I thought he could have the capacity to do commit an atrocity like this," he said. In the age of widespread social media, no trace of Holmes could be found on Facebook, LinkedIn, MySpace, Twitter or anywhere on the Web. Either he never engaged or he scrubbed his trail. "He spent much of his time immersed in the computer, often participating in role-playing online games..." (Some of these games have been implicated in mind control practices) In academic achievement, "he was at the top of the top," Julie Adams, whose son played junior varsity soccer with Holmes, said her son remembered little about the suspect, which was unusual for the tight-knit team. (Was he really there or are they inserting him into their memories?) a furniture mover who lives several blocks from the suspect's apartment building in Colorado, said he had drinks with Holmes at a bar on Tuesday night, though he showed no sign of distress or violence. San Diego Superior Court spokeswoman Karen Dalton said there were no records found under his name, not even for a traffic ticket. Riverside County prosecutors also have no criminal record for hi The only mark on his record in Aurora was a speeding summons from October, The suspects in almost all mass shooting cases are mute and drugged up robots who obediently hand themselves over to the authorities after they’re finished killing. Multiple suspects have been reported by ABC and others. (Wanna bet he's never caught?) Colorado (a US intelligence center since the 40's) marks the scene of three mass shootings since Columbine. Police were said to be on scene almost instantly. (Were they waiting nearby???) There is conjecture that James Holmes may have been involved in mind-altering neuroscience research and became involved at a depth he never anticipated. His actions clearly show a strange detachment from reality, indicating he was not in his right mind. That can only typically be accomplished through drugs, hypnosis or trauma and sometimes all three. (Mind control techniques) His behavior already reveals stark inconsistencies that question the mainstream explanation of events. For example, he opened fire on innocent people but then calmly surrendered to police without resistance. He then freely admitted to police that his apartment was booby-trapped with "possible" explosives. (he didn't know if they were or were not explosives??? Who put them there?); (not consistent with the behavior of one intent on killing everyone) From CBS: "He said pictures from inside the apartment are fairly disturbing and the devices look to be sophisticated, adding the booby-traps were 'something I've never seen.' One rifle, two handguns, a knife, a bullet proof vest, a ballistic helmet, a gas device, a gas mask, military SWAT clothing and unidentified explosives were also found in Holmes' car, a law enforcement source told CBS News. Oates said Holmes wore a gas mask, a ballistic helmet and vest as well as leg, groin and throat protectors during the shooting." (materials even I would have difficulty obtaining and setting up) In other words, this guy was equipped with exotic gear by someone with connections to military equipment. SWAT clothing, explosives, complex booby-traps... c'mon, this isn't a "lone gunman." This is somebody who was selected for a mission, given equipment to carry it out, then somehow brainwashed into getting it done. FBI has a track record of staging similar assaults, then stopping them at the last minute. Questions: How does an unemployed medical student afford $20,000 in weapons gear? Where does an unemployed, introverted medical school student get the training to deploy sophisticated booby traps, tactical body armor, weapons systems and more? Certainly not in graduate school! More and more, this shooting is looking like a deliberate plot staged by the government itself much like Operation Fast and Furious pulled off by the ATF which helped smuggle tens of thousands of guns into Mexico for the purpose of causing "gun violence" in the USA, then blaming the Second Amendment for it. Forbes.com wrote about this quite extensively, warning readers about the coming gun confiscation effort related to the UN treaty. The story was authored by Larry Bell ( To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ...) and says the UN treaty could "override our national sovereignty, and in the process, provide license for the federal government to assert preemptive powers over state regulatory powers guaranteed by the Tenth Amendment in addition to our Second Amendment rights." Motives For False Flag??? One apparent political motive is to tilt American public opinion towards gun control laws Coincidentally, on July 27, 2012, President Obama and Hillary Clinton are going to sign the UN gun control treaty. Another motive is to increase the role of the TSA, and beef up security (opression) in all areas of society. To justify the government spying on innocent Americans. After all, if a model citizen can do such horrific things then we are ALL Dangerous. To restrict even more of the things we are "allowed" to own.

[Straylight]

	Originally Posted by Typhon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's obvious that we don't need to keep beating the statistic-game to death. It's sort of my point, in fact, that every side has an agenda to push and can play the numbers game. Hence, why be swayed with reactionary thinking about gun control at all? Why not just accept the risks of life in a society of others and try to plan as best as possible?

I'm not saying it's wrong to have guns in your society. 'The right to bear arms' seems to be written into American DNA, and I'm not an American.

What I'm saying is, if you are going to have guns in your society - you're going to have to accept alot of deaths caused by them. I think the statistics bear that out.

Europeans wouldn't tolerate that risk, Americans do - maybe it's the frontier spirit or something - I don't know.

[Dangime]

Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm not saying it's wrong to have guns in your society. 'The right to bear arms' seems to be written into American DNA, and I'm not an American. What I'm saying is, if you are going to have guns in your society - you're going to have to accept alot of deaths caused by them. I think the statistics bear that out. Europeans wouldn't tolerate that risk, Americans do - maybe it's the frontier spirit or something - I don't know.

This seems akin to after 9/11 when everyone was afriad of being killed in a terrorist attack, I forget who said it but eventually they just said, "Worried about dying? Stop smoking and make sure to buckle your safety belt when you're in a car."

[Typhon]

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What I'm saying is, if you are going to have guns in your society - you're going to have to accept alot of deaths caused by them. I think the statistics bear that out.

Partly agree. A free society must accept the risks and responsibility that go along with their freedom. Wouldn't have it any other way. Not gonna waste my time addressing your other points.

[Straylight]

	Originally Posted by Typhon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Partly agree. A free society must accept the risks and responsibility that go along with their freedom. Wouldn't have it any other way. Not gonna waste my time addressing your other points.

You like shooting your gun, I think we established that.

[Fox]

There are still place where people use guns to hunt for food or to get around in bear country. There are probably private citizens with a legitimate excuses to carry a handgun for protection.

I don't think people should have access to military style weapons. There needs to be plenty of regulations. The bigger problem I see is not just gun owner ship but our society's ability to deal with the crazies away before they do something crazy. You always hear about how these lunatics were freaking everybody out for years and how they just slip through the system because they haven't done anything wrong yet. If you take guns away these crazies will kill with different means.

[IslandHead]

A interesting thing to note is the CDC is banned from looking at death caused by guns (if I remember correctly)

[Etherialone]

	Originally Posted by Nathanael To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm a pacifist, I don't need a gun. I recognize others don't feel the same way, and it's a good idea that average people should be able to obtain weapons if some hypothetical revolt becomes necessary in some imaginary scenario. But as far as self defense goes, it's a bunch of bullshit. People own guns because of their psychological significance, not because they'll actually make you safer.

Older post but I have to comment on it... If someone were to break into my home while I or my family is present then they are a threat... and the police are only there to take a report afterwards which does me no good.. If a teacher can't stop a student in one room from shooting a spitball then just how much of a deterrant is a Cop?.. But I can guarantee you I am capable of defending myself and the fact that at least where I live my 2nd amendment rights and castle doctrine not only protect me directly but indirectly as well because the Risk factor to a would be criminal is exponentially higher than in a place where the law abiding population has for all practical purposes been made unable to defend themselves.

Of course all of this is still only part of the real issue. Which is what this country was founded on and that is Freedom and the concept that the people have the right to protect themselves from Tyranny. That is why we have three branches of government .. Each to keep the other in check.. and why we have our 2nd amendment rights so that the population has the ability to keep the government in check ... To the point that our Federal and Many State Constitutions protect our 2nd amendment rights and go so far as to state that the single biggest threat to civil liberty is the establishment of a standing army.

Oh and lets not forget that even in the last 100 years that The only reason we were NOT invaded by Japan during WWII and Stalin during the Cold War (and most likely Hitler had he suceeded in conquering europe) is because of the United States having a well armed population... It was said by the Japanese that they could not win an invasion because there would be a rifle hiding behind every blade of grass.. and the Soviets calculated that they had the numbers to over-run this country but that they could not hold it because they would be fighting the population indefinitely.

So here's the rub... if you don't like weapons don't own one. If you don't like religion don't join a church. If you Don't want to be a Homsexual Don't be one... But Don't force your opinions and will on others.

Our country was founded on Freedom and I belive in that. And I will take being a Free man in a Dangerous place any day over trading my freedoms for a false sense of security in a police state.

[Bullwinkle]

I don't live in America, but visited it several years ago and loved the beautiful place and all you wonderful people. BUT I was totally freaked out by the absolute ease of gun ownership. Fairly avergae sports stores selling gym gear along side racks of high powered rifles.
Just wrong,
I am not against guns, I have a rifle or two myself, all properly registered & locked away as per regulations
It needs to be more difficult to get a gun, at least make an attempt to weed out the crazies. It does work- mostly -which is better than the current system
America needs gun control
Simple

[Hammer of Ukko]

I think we should just ban angry antisocial retards who want to shoot others. Without them, we could sell guns in toy stores!

[IreOfDesire]

Originally Posted by Etherialone To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Oh and lets not forget that even in the last 100 years that The only reason we were NOT invaded by Japan during WWII and Stalin during the Cold War (and most likely Hitler had he suceeded in conquering europe) is because of the United States having a well armed population... It was said by the Japanese that they could not win an invasion because there would be a rifle hiding behind every blade of grass.. and the Soviets calculated that they had the numbers to over-run this country but that they could not hold it because they would be fighting the population indefinitely.

Congrats, you win the prize for the most absurd statement by far on this forums, and this means A LOT.

It would be really interesting to see a poll with US and non-US members opinions on the subject, because currently it seems like most of the pro gun people are Americans. I also bet most of you haven't lived outside US in places with banned/restricted gun ownership.

In my view the fear that all hell will break lose and crime would run rampant if guns are to be banned is ... to put it lightly ... amusing. Guns only escalate the level of violence, I wouldn't risk a gunfight to save my property. If i want to protect my home from robbery I'd buy a security system and a big dog, not a freaking machine gun. If I want to protest against my government I don't go out with guns doing so and in my knowledge nor did the US society in any point in history. I believe you greatly overestimate the benefits of guns.

[INTelliJent]

Because security systems and dogs are bullet proof?

Technically the US never protested itself with guns. It merely attacked, with guns, those who protested.

[Kuile]

Why should actions of criminals affect the rights of non-criminal?

If someone really wants to kill, he will kill.

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Problem is the will to kill, not the tools used.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There were 853 murders in the UK in 2002 of which 14 were caused by firearms. There were 16'229 murders in the US in 2002 of which 9369 were caused by firearms. Thats about 57.7% in 2002 for firearms in the US although another figure said it was 68% in 2006 so 60% caused by firearm is probably fair. The majority of UK murders are caused by knives and blunt object trauma (including beatings). It's easier to shoot someone than to either stab them to death or beat them to death. Which is why European and western countries in general that do not have freely available guns have a much lower murder rate per 100'000 people.

There are more people in the US than there are in the UK so it makes sense more murders happen in the US.

As for the method of killing. I think I'd rather be shot than stabbed or beaten to death. But that is just personal preference.

[Straylight]

	Originally Posted by Kuile To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[B] Problem is the will to kill, not the tools used.

There has always been a will to kill. The question is how easy you make it for them.

---------- Post added 07-24-2012 at 03:01 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There are more people in the US than there are in the UK so it makes sense more murders happen in the US. As for the method of killing. I think I'd rather be shot than stabbed or beaten to death. But that is just personal preference.

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Personally I'd prefer to be shot as opposed to stabbed or beaten to death too. But the issue is how likely it is to happen.

	There were 853 murders in the UK in 2002 of which 14 were caused by firearms. There were 16'229 murders in the US in 2002 of which 9369 were caused by firearms.

In 2002 the US population was 280'562'489 and in the UK it was 59'778'002.

280'562'489 / 16'229 = 17'288. You had a 1 in 17'288 chance of being murdered in the US in 2002.

59'778'002 / 853 = 70'080. You had a 1 in 70'080 chance of being murdered in the UK in 2002.

70'080 / 17288 = 4.05. You were roughly 4 times as likely to get murdered in the US in 2002 that in the UK for the same year.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There has always been a will to kill. The question is how easy you make it for them. ---------- Post added 07-24-2012 at 03:01 PM ---------- To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Personally I'd prefer to be shot as opposed to stabbed or beaten to death too. But the issue is how likely it is to happen. In 2002 the US population was 280'562'489 and in the UK it was 59'778'002. 280'562'489 / 16'229 = 17'288. You had a 1 in 17'288 chance of being murdered in the US in 2002. 59'778'002 / 853 = 70'080. You had a 1 in 70'080 chance of being murdered in the UK in 2002. 70'080 / 17288 = 4.05. You were roughly 4 times as likely to get murdered in the US in 2002 that in the UK for the same year.

Okay, lets break that down even farther. Who is getting murdered? The US has a large population of minorities that have a culture around pimping, drugs and guns. In the city I live in black people are the minority. Most murders are black men killing black men. If they didn't use guns they'd probably use knives or whatever else was handy. The guns they do use are often owned illegally already so making more gun laws wouldn't help them.

I talked to an undercover cop about this late one night.

[Kuile]

	Originally Posted by Straylight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There has always been a will to kill. The question is how easy you make it for them.

Some statistics from a European country(Finland) 2003-2010
All homicides 985
Knife 40%
Bare hands 23%
Firearm 17% of which 44% with licensed firearms
Blunt weapon 9%
Other(fire, poison etc) 11%
Note that figure of homicides done with firearms includes the many tragic shootings of past years, done mostly with licensed firearms.

That's about 70 deaths by licensed firearms over 8 years, many of them in school shootings.
There are 32 guns/100 residents (rank 8 in world, rank 2 in Europe)
As number of gun owners has risen, homicide rates have gone down steadily, about 35% from figures of 1990.
Last year 2,07 homicides/100 000 residents, pretty high when compared to rest of Europe.
Seems like we are a violent nation, but death by legal firearm is rare exception.

Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Okay, lets break that down even farther. Who is getting murdered? The US has a large population of minorities that have a culture around pimping, drugs and guns. In the city I live in black people are the minority. Most murders are black men killing black men. If they didn't use guns they'd probably use knives or whatever else was handy. The guns they do use are often owned illegally already so making more gun laws wouldn't help them.

Good to know info on homicides above:
Mostly men killing men 61% or men killing women 27%
At least other party intoxicated with alcohol 83% both 63%
Own home or home of someone else 70%
Knew the assaulter 68%
Assaulter had violent crime history 57%
Assaulter had been to jail 37%
Most assaulters were working age but 80% were unemployed
Most assaulters shared low level of education.

Your typical Finnish killer: unemployed middle aged man with history in violent crime, stabs someone he knows to death in his own apartment while being intoxicated with alcohol.

[Straylight]

Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Okay, lets break that down even farther. Who is getting murdered? The US has a large population of minorities that have a culture around pimping, drugs and guns. In the city I live in black people are the minority. Most murders are black men killing black men. If they didn't use guns they'd probably use knives or whatever else was handy. The guns they do use are often owned illegally already so making more gun laws wouldn't help them. I talked to an undercover cop about this late one night.

In the UK there are also gangs, maybe slightly more ethnically diverse than the US and judging by the news they are probably killing each other at a higher rate than the population in general. I wouldn't want to say it was ok though, because it's just alot of scumbags killing each other.
I'd rather live in a society that was intolerant of murder full stop no exceptions. And I bet those gangs kill more than their fair share of the law abiding public anyway.

[kookoonuts]

	Originally Posted by IreOfDesire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	....It would be really interesting to see a poll with US and non-US members opinions on the subject, because currently it seems like most of the pro gun people are Americans. I also bet most of you haven't lived outside US in places with banned/restricted gun ownership....

I've lived in the US, Germany, Austria and Croatia. I am not pro-gun. I am pro-freedom. I own a gun, but it does not own me.

	Originally Posted by IreOfDesire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	.... I wouldn't risk a gunfight to save my property. If i want to protect my home from robbery I'd buy a security system and a big dog, not a freaking machine gun....

If someone is in my home at 3am, while I am in bed, sleeping, how do I know what crimes they are capable of commiting? If that intruder, who already has shown no regard for my safety and the privacy of my home is between my family and me, I will use whatever force is necessary to eliminate him from the equation. If I am alone, I will hide, call 911, and keep my weapon locked and loaded. In the former scenario, in the US, you can assume the person is armed, regardless of whether the weapon is legalized or not. I would rather neutralize him than risk a family member or myself being raped and/or murdered. 911 and security systems are not immediate protection.

	Originally Posted by IreOfDesire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	.... If I want to protest against my government I don't go out with guns doing so and in my knowledge nor did the US society in any point in history.

Please see the US Revolutionary War and Civil War, if you are unfamiliar with either. Although not in our lifetime or the lifetimes of our grandparents, these events are still relatively fresh in the history of our species.

Again, I am torn on the topic. The ideal must always bend for the practical, and the logistics in this country are a nightmare.

[demaugustus]

During the last three years I've lived in China there has been a mass stabbing in a school in which a few deranged individuals stabbed to death about twenty preschool aged children, a student stabbed to death his roommate at a nearby college because he embarrassed him on the internet, and, last but not least, a couple twenty year old young men got into a fight playing basketball which resulted in one of them having both their hands chopped off.

See, in China, in a country that outlaws guns completely, people still do fucked up things to each other.