[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by setsume To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How come J determines the dominant function (or vice versa) IN IS ET EF and P: EN ES IT IF e.g. IN is dominant for INTJ while IT is dominant for INTP. Is this an empirical fact or just how the functions are defined. Is it a consequence of how the functions are suppose to work together?

I think it's a bit of both.

Being an INT, one could be an Ni or a Ti. However, if one is a J, then one HAS to be an Ni-dom, and if one is a P, then one HAS to be a Ti-dom. The way it breaks down for every type, is as follows:

Ni = INxJ
Si = ISxJ
Ti = IxTP
Fi = IxFP

Ne = ENxP
Se = ESxP
Te = ExTJ
Fe = ExFJ

As you can see, if you an extrovert, then your extroverted function is your dominant function. So if you are an extrovert, then if you are also a J, your judging function is your dominant function, and if you are a P, then your perceiving function is your dominant function. For introverts, it's in reverse. If you are an introvert, and also a J, then your perceiving function is your dominant function, and if you are a P, then your judging function is your dominant function.

However, observing people in reality, Ne-doms tend to behave extremely differently to Ni-doms, and the same is true for the other functions. Jung clearly held that, by grouping the functions by their introversion/extroversion, rather than how we would think of doing it, by the functions themselves (putting Ne next to Ni, Te next to Ti, etc). Myers and Briggs realised that practically, it's very difficult to tell if an INTx is using Ni or Ti, because to others, we seem to think so similarly. But if you just look at how they express themselves, whether they are judgemental about others, or try to understand (perceive) others, then it becomes clear to others which one one is.

This is part of the problem with MBTI today. Most people try to type themselves usng online tests, which are thus subjective. MBTI was designed around extroverted understandings of other people, and so was designed to be evaluated by other humans in front of you. So online tests are in conflict with MBTI.

[setsume]

Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

However, observing people in reality, Ne-doms tend to behave extremely differently to Ni-doms, and the same is true for the other functions. Jung clearly held that, by grouping the functions by their introversion/extroversion, rather than how we would think of doing it, by the functions themselves (putting Ne next to Ni, Te next to Ti, etc). Myers and Briggs realised that practically, it's very difficult to tell if an INTx is using Ni or Ti, because to others, we seem to think so similarly. But if you just look at how they express themselves, whether they are judgemental about others, or try to understand (perceive) others, then it becomes clear to others which one one is.

To me there's a clear difference between Ni and Ti, but I can't really tell which one is dominant in me because I don't see any basis for comparison, but they are clearly the functions I use the most compared to the others. I try to understand people and don't consider myself "judgmental about others". What exactly do you mean by "judgmental"? "J" as I've understood it is about preference to order, planning, having schedules and task orientedness while "P" is about flexibility and taking things as they come, being indecisive.

[scorpiomover]

Originally Posted by setsume To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To me there's a clear difference between Ni and Ti, but I can't really tell which one is dominant in me because I don't see any basis for comparison, but they are clearly the functions I use the most compared to the others. I try to understand people and don't consider myself "judgmental about others". What exactly do you mean by "judgmental"? "J" as I've understood it is about preference to order, planning, having schedules and task orientedness while "P" is about flexibility and taking things as they come, being indecisive.

You are referring to the stereotypes written online about Js and Ps.

In common usage, being judgemental, means finding fault with anyone who has an alternative view or plan to your own, and not stopping finding fault, until they have lost all confidence in their views/plans. It generally refers to people who are judge things so strongly, that anything else, is immediately dismissed as wrong, and anyone expressing such views, is told so, very clearly, until they give up.

Perceiving, is a lesser used word, but refers to perceptions, which are the ways different individuals see the same scene, but understand them differently. Perceptual psychologists specialise in understanding how the things we see are perceived (interpreted) by our brains.

INTPs and INTJs can appear similar at first glance, because they both have I, N, and T. However, in practice, they are very different. I normally suggest reading the posts of many INTJs and many INTPs, as from what I have read of others who did this, they either felt like they had arrived home for the first time in their lives, or they felt like they were on an planet populated solely by strange aliens.

For INTJ posts, there are plenty here. INTJs here seem to intuitively understand each other. To me, they read like aliens.

For INTP posts, just google "You know you're an INTP when", and read any of those threads. After 3 pages of such a thread, you'll either say to yourself that you've done at least 70% of all that INTPs have reported about themselves, or you'll conclude they are all nuts.

But if you prefer the shorthand, there are plenty of examples of differences in behaviour. INTPs tend to mirror other people and try to blend into the background. INTJs tend to like to stand out, and are known for their "death stare":

This kind of sums up how INTPs and INTJs look:


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If you're an INTP, you've probably done the INTP-owl look, a lot, and so you know it by sight.

If you're an INTJ, you've done the INTJ-owl look so often, you also know it instantly.

Does one look like a face you do often, and the other is definitely not you?

[setsume]

Originally Posted by scorpiomover

In common usage, being judgemental, means finding fault with anyone who has an alternative view or plan to your own, and not stopping finding fault, until they have lost all confidence in their views/plans. It generally refers to people who are judge things so strongly, that anything else, is immediately dismissed as wrong, and anyone expressing such views, is told so, very clearly, until they give up. Perceiving, is a lesser used word, but refers to perceptions, which are the ways different individuals see the same scene, but understand them differently. Perceptual psychologists specialise in understanding how the things we see are perceived (interpreted) by our brains.

When you put it this way, they are not mutually exclusive. The same scene can be interpreted in different but not necessarily conflicting ways - no principal reason for Js to argue about this? Are the perceievers in principle relativistic/subjectivists or may they acknowledge that one can be wrong and one can be right? Or is it just that Ps don't like to debate about things and want to avoid conflict? Depending on exactly how they are defined I may not be able to cleanly put myself in either category because I draw from the strength of each and try to avoid the weaknesses. Without clear definitions I can merely see a bundle of correlated characteristics. So yes, I can see the patterns that distinguish typical INTPs and INTJs (from which I'd say I'm a bit more J than P but still have a significant number of P characteristics. Which owl look I make depends on the context) but I don't know to what extent these are stereotypes or defining characteristics, so I would like to have a clearer overview of the latter.

[scorpiomover]

Trying a different approach:

From what I have read of Jung, had the view that we can all start out equally, in every way. But as with most things, something tips us one way or the other for a time, be it genetics, or environmental, or chosen, if only for a short time. Most of the time, our body and mind's natural tendencies to achieve homeostasis, make us balance out. But like any evolving system, some of those imbalances are driven further, by the nature of the system itself, and its influences. Then the system evolves into a system with a fixed bias, that stabilises with such a bias. Once the system stabilises, then the system continues to self-correct. Any tendencies back towards the middle, get self-corrected back towards the status quo. This is the way that evolving systems seem to work.

The mind also constantly evolves. It is always taking in new data via the senses, processing it, and recording the results in memory. However, the bulk of our processing of the data coming in, is based on the memory, and even a large part of what our minds process and produce, is also based on what we already have in our heads. So it resembles an evolutionary system. Our minds also show a homeostatic self-correcting behaviour. People tend to veer slightly in behaviour and ideas. Some days we go out more, and some less. Some days we are thinking more about what people think, and what effect that will have on what we do, and some days, we are more worried about the objective things and tasks themselves. Yet, people have an overall consistent behaviour, which shows that the mind self-corrects from these changes.

The characteristics Jung was talking about, that are made clearer in MBTI, are 4 characteristics, where almost all people, who show some sophistication and maturity in their thinking, their words and their actions, are on one side or the other, for long enough, that it would be a status quo for their minds as evolvutionary systems, where the mind would normally self-correct against any temporary changes. So naturally, one would be more J-ish or more P-ish, on any one day. But overall, one would on average sit in the J-ish side, or in the P-ish side, depending on how one's mind evolved.

reckful pointed out how Jung linked one's typology to one's Weltanschauung, one's personal philosophy for how one works out how to navigate through life, as that shapes what types of decisions one generally makes, and so provides a regular evolutionary pressure to one direction or another on the dichotomies of problem-solving, resulting in a status quo for the evolutionary system that is the mind.

As a general rules, INTPs are more of an general attitude and Weltanschauung, that "no decision is better than a bad decision", or the first rule of medicine, "first do no harm". INTJs are more of an attitude that "doing something is better than doing nothing".

[Human]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As a general rules, INTPs are more of an general attitude and Weltanschauung, that "no decision is better than a bad decision", or the first rule of medicine, "first do no harm". INTJs are more of an attitude that "doing something is better than doing nothing".

Interesting
I expect the INTPs to use trial and error due to their Ne.
And the INTJs to use restraint thanks to their Ni

But if in terms of Ti and Te perhaps this is true.

[setsume]

Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The characteristics Jung was talking about, that are made clearer in MBTI, are 4 characteristics, where almost all people, who show some sophistication and maturity in their thinking, their words and their actions, are on one side or the other, for long enough, that it would be a status quo for their minds as evolvutionary systems, where the mind would normally self-correct against any temporary changes. So naturally, one would be more J-ish or more P-ish, on any one day. But overall, one would on average sit in the J-ish side, or in the P-ish side, depending on how one's mind evolved.

I thought Jung did not have any J and P, but that this was an addition in MBTI. I can see your reasoning with the evolutionary system, but it doesn't make matters any clearer to me. Reckful said these were the result of whether one's extraverted function is a judging function or a perceiving function, so Fe and Te would mean a higher J while Ne and Se would mean a higher P. Being an introvert, this certainly makes things muddier to grasp, but my Te definitively seems linked to J while my Ne seems linked to P.

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As a general rules, INTPs are more of an general attitude and Weltanschauung, that "no decision is better than a bad decision", or the first rule of medicine, "first do no harm". INTJs are more of an attitude that "doing something is better than doing nothing".

I can't say I have either attitude. It just seems too arbitrary to me. When decisions are best to make is circumstantial to me.

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by setsume To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I thought Jung did not have any J and P, but that this was an addition in MBTI.

Technically, yes. However, ExxJs are Te-doms and Fe-doms, what Jung called Extroverted Rational types. ExxPs are Ne-doms and Se-doms, what Jung called Extroverted Irrational Types. IxxPs are Ti-doms and Fi-doms, what Jung called Introverted Rational types, and IxxJs are Ni-doms and Si-doms, what Jung called Introverted Irrational Types. So, even though Jung did not explicitly declare the 4th dichotomy, when you use the Jungian typology, you get the J/P distinction anyway.

Originally Posted by setsume To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can see your reasoning with the evolutionary system, but it doesn't make matters any clearer to me. Reckful said these were the result of whether one's extraverted function is a judging function or a perceiving function, so Fe and Te would mean a higher J while Ne and Se would mean a higher P. Being an introvert, this certainly makes things muddier to grasp, but my Te definitively seems linked to J while my Ne seems linked to P. I can't say I have either attitude. It just seems too arbitrary to me. When decisions are best to make is circumstantial to me.

You could be on the fence. Some people choose to label one of more of their dichotomies with an "x".

Or, just have a look at the posts of INTJs here, and the posts of "You know you're an INTP when" threads, and see if any of them seem like you, or not, and make up your own mind. Ultimately, you know yourself the longest, and thus, the best. Who is better placed to tell you what you are and are not, than you?

[Polymath20]

one thing that is often misunderstood about the functions and the MBTI is that they are merely preferences - everyone uses all 8 function every day of their life - MBTI simply creates 16 boxes to put people in.

If you really wanted to get specific, you would set up your type with all 8 functions in the order of preference.

[setsume]

I'm going to put myself on the fence for now. It's undecided between INTP and INTJ. Maybe even an INFP mixed in, since my preferences are Ni-Ti-Fi. It still bothers me though that I can't nail it down because there is no exact definition of the functions. I looked up Jung's descriptions, and they are very elusive. Particularly Fi.