[sunitaishot]

I had a thought recently. I don't fear talking to women, whether in a friendly or flirtatious context, they are just humans as men are.

But why do some guys fear talking to women? Is it due to:

- some guys don't grow out of the "cooties" stage? Boys aged 5/6/7 see girls as icky, but grow out of this in tween years. Do some men still have the feeling of seeing girls as different?

- some men, due to cultural/religious reasons, have no experience developing relationships with women (in a platonic sense at the base)

- general shyness/insecurity

- some men are conditioned by popular culture to see women as different, or to be apprehensive around them. It's like how in teen Hollywood movies, the guys are scared to talk to a girl, since they're intimidated by her looks.

[Causa Mortis]

Ego investment in the outcome, worrying about the opinions of others. Some overlap between those two.

[blueback]

I don't think it's got anything to do with women.

Most people don't have any idea how to start a new relationship. Period. The few new relationships most of us experience are more-or-less forced on us by situations, like being at work, or in the same club, or knowing the same people.

The particular case of a guy trying to come up with a way to meet a girl is given more attention, but there's nothing to distinguish it from the general case.

[MechanicalSun]

It's due to the most basic human fear:
fear of the unknown.

[Distance]

Probably for the same reason why some women can't talk to men. They're feeling shy and intimidated by the uncertain feelings of attraction, roiling around inside of them.

[Autoptic]

Potential political shitstorm. Groups are shooting galleries, and you can't shoot back, not that that does anything useful on your end. In a confined environment, your dating pool, among other things, can be poisoned easily and intentionally by baseless quasi-accusations.

[Othesemo]

Fear of rejection, I assume.

[hi5yourface]

	Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Potential political shitstorm. Groups are shooting galleries, and you can't shoot back, not that that does anything useful on your end. In a confined environment, your dating pool, among other things, can be poisoned easily and intentionally by baseless quasi-accusations.

It's human relations not a conspiracy theory......I get irritated at the thought that people don't just talk. Seriously, the anxiety at first is part of the fun, that's pressboard, you just push on through.

[Autoptic]

	Originally Posted by hi5yourface To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's human relations not a conspiracy theory......I get irritated at the thought that people don't just talk. Seriously, the anxiety at first is part of the fun, that's pressboard, you just push on through.

Nothing's fun about any of that. "Push on through" to what? They lose any potential for my respect when they pull that shit. It won't end there. Sexual politics is not just "human". There's nothing equal there nor meant to be. There is "solidarity" shtick in play. It's been admitted even by the well meaning who don't react well to their own actions when the dots are connected.

[changos]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Probably for the same reason why some women can't talk to men. They're feeling shy and intimidated by the uncertain feelings of attraction, roiling around inside of them.

True. Sometimes you can talk to ANYONE but when it comes to the one you care-like, you just care too much. It also depends on the country and culture, did a lot of homework in that. In some countries it is normal to approach others, in others the girl assumes she is the ultimate queen (vanity).

And don't underestimate how some lack humanity to be polite, some will humilliate others in public. There are many true stories about men who were publicly rejected in public. I don't get it... talking is just that, talking!!!!


As for me, at present time... can fall into my memories and mental projections regarding the so many things I want to avoid... you know, some say it is not hard to get into something but GETTING OUT OF THERE... consider us, intjs... thinking into the future, seeing the possibilities... sometimes it is too much.

[hi5yourface]

	Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Nothing's fun about any of that.

well then I guess you won't be doing it then, right.

	"Push on through" to what?

The other side of the initial anxiety.

	There's nothing equal there nor meant to be. There is "solidarity" shtick in play. It's been admitted even by the well meaning who don't react well to their own actions when the dots are connected.

Why would a person lose your respect by speaking to you? Also, it's not suppose to end there. I never said there was equality in the process although I'm pretty sure if interest is mutual it won't take long for it to get there.

Also solidarity in what way? How many people are we talking about here?

[Carot]

....Fear of hope. Maybe. Success?

Fear of hope failing.

[ModernLit]

yes, FEAR ME! muahaha.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Nostalgia]

Breasts...I blame the breasts and the mystical power that is abounded by them...CURSES!

[Autoptic]

	Originally Posted by hi5yourface To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	well then I guess you won't be doing it then, right.

Mostly haven't. Really don't like the ones that like me (really their mutant abomination projection on/from my supposed image) nor care to be used as a fling, which is most of what's out there, and, yes, I catch contorted flak for just not wanting flings all the time.

	The other side of the initial anxiety.

Verbal sparing in a pitch gamed I want nothing to do with? I lose showing up. "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." Granted win here would just be not losing more, in terms of emotional resources and self-"respect".

	Why would a person lose your respect by speaking to you? Also, it's not suppose to end there. I never said there was equality in the process although I'm pretty sure if interest is mutual it won't take long for it to get there.

Talking down to me and expecting me to play along against my interests and slamming me if I don't isn't just "speaking to me". So admit the rigged games? It's not mutual. I don't abide players and certainly don't entitled users.

	Also solidarity in what way? How many people are we talking about here?

Ever seen a complete stranger call a guy creepy for unstated reasons, and most women pass it along mindlessly? Ask a well meaning one why, and you'll probably get some shit about how the accusation (of what exactly?) needs to be taken seriously (her word apparently should stand alone, whoever the hell she happens to be) to protect women (from what?). Then there's just watching what happens to a guy when women start slamming him in public. It won't go the same if a group of men did that to a chick, will it?

[Zsych]

I think that blueback has it right. Talking to a stranger you know nothing about, and trying to create a relationship is a somewhat unusual situation to be in. Its a different type of interaction that has to be learned.

[Tactical Panda]

Fear of dealing with the mad.

Not that all women are mad.

It's just the few that do leave such a lasting impression that a young can sometimes assume that not all they do is reasonable sane. In effect, that drama arises from little to do with you - in effect a nonsensical risk to peace and sanity.

And people sometimes assume you are in the wrong. Perhaps the world is mad, rather than it merely being the women.

[Ender]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Probably for the same reason why some women can't talk to men. They're feeling shy and intimidated by the uncertain feelings of attraction, roiling around inside of them.

I was going to put it in a cheekily sarcastic way, but yes, basically this. At least for those of us who are not accustomed to facing our feelings - common theme in INTJs it seems - it is very likely.

When interested in someone, it can also be a fear of rejection. Or for those who fantasize, a fear that the fantasy will be cut off completely.

[thod]

Fear of getting hurt, not rejection. Women are dangerous. You form a connection to them only to have it ripped away. Experience teaches one to not get too close, to take things slowly and feel out the ground. The alternative is treat them as disposable sex objects retaining emotional distance.

[Bluesea]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Fear of getting hurt, not rejection. Women are dangerous. You form a connection to them only to have it ripped away. Experience teaches one to not get too close, to take things slowly and feel out the ground. The alternative is treat them as disposable sex objects retaining emotional distance.

As a woman I find this thread an eye opener and I wonder how many women realise men have an emotional investment in the outcome from the beginning. The message and stereotypical view of men is that they are only interested in a woman for sex and are hard or nigh near impossible to get to invest in a real relationship with genuine intimacy. So if a woman walks away I wonder how much of it is about not once considering any feelings will be hurt or are even involved on the part of the man.

How well do you guys let women know how you feel about the potential for rejection and hurt?

Women are aware of their capacity to invest emotionally only to find out they've been used and treated as a notch in the belt; perhaps their protection is to walk away if they consider that is what is going on and have no information to the contrary?

[IotaNull]

Fear is the body's way of telling you that you don't need to try something to know it's a stupid idea.

[Fishism]

	Originally Posted by Bluesea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How well do you guys let women know how you feel about the potential for rejection and hurt? Women are aware of their capacity to invest emotionally only to find out they've been used and treated as a notch in the belt; perhaps their protection is to walk away if they consider that is what is going on and have no information to the contrary?

Trying to relate this post to the OP, I think it's about the initial conversation, the first impression, the icebreaker, the showing of interest. Just the simple cold call. There's no way for a male to indicate anything other than interest, whether it be sexual in nature, or romantic, without committing to "the approach". I don't think opening with a disclaimer like, "Hello, please don't hurt me for I plan to take you seriously" is going to work.

I'm sure that for every guy who has the anxiety of saying to himself "Am I going to find the courage to talk to someone tonight?" there is a female who has the anxiety of saying "Is someone going to talk to me tonight?" There is more at risk than short term rejection . There is the long term damage to one's ego, the acceptance that you might end up alone because you're lacking in some department, and the perpetuated belief that with every success your friends have finding relationships that you don't, that you're just "not as good". This is a very bitter pill to swallow. This is what hangs in the balance when you boldly make that first move and let that initial "Hello" dangle in the air.

When you're young, in school, surrounded by singles in your age group, pairing up is often nothing but a process of osmosis. You're classmates first, then friends, then maybe a couple. It just happens. This also happens in the work place as well, which is why so many relationships (and affairs for that matter) happen at work. Going in cold, however, with an attractive woman in a bar, or that cute girl who you regularly see in the lineup at Starbucks is rife with unknowns. You have NOTHING to go on. You don't even know if she's single. Vulnerability for an unfavourable outcome is high. Men are afraid to approach women when the mathematical equation of risk/benefit comes out with bad odds. Is one simple and casual "not interested" from her going to cause such damage?

[Velocitii]

	Originally Posted by Fishism To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	....the acceptance that you might end up alone because you're lacking in some department, and the perpetuated belief that with every success your friends have finding relationships that you don't, that you're just "not as good". This is a very bitter pill to swallow. This is what hangs in the balance when you boldly make that first move and let that initial "Hello" dangle in the air.

Wow, this is a clear summary of what lays dormant in the back of my head and comes out at the least convenient times.

[mieu]

vagina dentata

[Bisclavret]

Not fear. It's just that the socially constructed barriers which seperate men and women is sometimes so great, that it makes women seemingly feel unreachable at times, as if they were a completely different species.

For me, there needs to be common ground or a common interest for me to approach someone, be it man or woman. Nine times out of ten, I have more in common with other men, unsurprisingly so, since I am one. But with women that have interests and personalities that are stereotypically viewed as "masculine", I experience far less trouble relating to them. They are far more "approachable". Sadly, these women are incredibly rare.