[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Can we give a policeman the right to judge if a girl deserves the right to kick a dude in the balls? They already do crap like giving us traffic tickets and what not that are basically uncontestable. Quick justice that people can see, is better anyway.

The key is to act first and seek forgiveness later. A woman who is inappropriately groped should view it as an attack on her person and respond in kind.

	This sounds like an unusual thing to hear from a woman. I thought it deserved quoting though.

I work with violent offenders and many of my clients have been in and out of the prison system.

A woman saying that rape is just regular assault. Surprising. I think that most of the actual psychological harm related to rape comes from the people who hear about it and start treating the person differently like they are damaged or like they should be acting hurt, and from the general view of it in society. Basically forcing the woman to believe that she should consider herself a psychologically destroyed victim. (harm born of good intentions...)

Listen, being the victim of a violent crime is inherently traumatic. Getting shot, stabbed, or raped are all pretty horrifying things, and should be treated as such. But, it's hard to make the case that being raped is worse than being shot/stabbed/severely beaten. All of those crimes are serious, and all should be treated seriously. And, I believe that just like any other kind of violent victimization, rape is traumatic.

I just don't buy that having someone grab you once is going to cause long-term serious damage. It's offensive, but I think we do women a disservice by treating them like victims who are incapable of handling a man who steps over the line. I don't know a cop I've ever worked with who'd arrest a woman for kicking a guy in the balls for groping her.

Most prison systems in the U.S. are already overcrowded, and it's hard enough to get the violent offenders sentenced to an appropriate length of time. Putting more non-violent offenders into the mix, when we can't even incarcerate all of the dangerous offenders, is a really stupid thing to do.

[Phaze228]

What...did he forget to say, "good game"? Groping of the breasts happened to tons of women on video by one guy
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. Don't see charges. But a quick vagina/ass grab is worth 6 months even though women have kicked men in the nads for SO many shitty reasons and they don't get charged. You got groped? Kick him. If he tried something more that actually would leave you traumatized, then he deserves a punishment of time.

[Midhiel]

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh, boo de fucking hoo. Your vagina is not the holy grail, my dear.

No, it's just my vagina. Key word: my.

Which is funny, because that sounds like a sentence out of an abortion argument, in which case one's vagina is totally one's own property and no one else's business. Which I totally agree with. In all cases. Including being groped without one's consent.

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or maybe, women could ovary up and handle that shit without resorting to the criminal justice system. Perverts are why god gave you elbows.

I see. Perhaps we should just do away with police in general, then. Take the law into our own hands? Figuratively speaking, anyway. Since I guess laws are pointless without police.

[SeverusSin]

Originally Posted by Midhiel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, it's just my vagina. Key word: my. Which is funny, because that sounds like a sentence out of an abortion argument, in which case one's vagina is totally one's own property and no one else's business. Which I totally agree with. In all cases. Including being groped without one's consent. I see. Perhaps we should just do away with police in general, then. Take the law into our own hands? Figuratively speaking, anyway. Since I guess laws are pointless without police.

No, Catzmenow is simply proposing another approach. Generally the approach that a man would take if someone invades his personal space rather playing the usual victim mentality that the woman seems to have got used to. Getting the police involved in such a petty incident is just a cowardly approach when you could deal with that situation yourself relatively easily, but most people don't see women calling the police (equivalent of running to tell the teacher) as a cowardly approach because they see the woman as inherently weak. Most men deal with minor altercations like this before they escalate to calling authorities, only if serious harm is being committed that passer's-by would consider calling the police generally.

[SoundofSilence]

Originally Posted by SeverusSin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, Catzmenow is simply proposing another approach. Generally the approach that a man would take if someone invades his personal space rather playing the usual victim mentality that the woman seems to have got used to. Getting the police involved in such a petty incident is just a cowardly approach when you could deal with that situation yourself relatively easily, but most people don't see women calling the police (equivalent of running to tell the teacher) as a cowardly approach because they see the woman as inherently weak. Most men deal with minor altercations like this before they escalate to calling authorities, only if serious harm is being committed that passer's-by would consider calling the police generally.

What if she would've hit him? He was under the influence of drugs and alcohol.. Men are, in general, physically stronger than women, so I don't think that would be such a good idea. In this case I think it's better to play it safe. You think it's no big deal to grab women in the genital area against their will?

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by CreepyCrawly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	long prison sentences (which (unlike groping, I do believe) is a breach of human rights last I checked)

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---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 12:08 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by SeverusSin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Getting the police involved in such a petty incident is just a cowardly approach

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---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 12:09 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I just don't buy that having someone grab you once is going to cause long-term serious damage.

No one's trying to sell it. Either way, until you've been groped, which I sincerely hope you never will be, please give gropees the benefit of doubt (rather than gropers).

[LiveNotOnEvil]

Ah, Arab countries and their intertwining of faith and government. They're more backwards than America. I'm suprised they didn't send the woman to jail instead, considering women have next to no right in Islamic countries. I also find something absolutely abhorent about it, not the crime itself (although it's wrong) but about islamic countries thinking they're allowed to impose their religious laws on other people. That would be like me making a country called "Santa Claus Land" and saying that anyone who doesn't pray to Santa Claus upon entry gets thrown into jail for 10 years blaspheming. What a world we live in, it kinda makes you embarrassed to be human.

[SeverusSin]

	Originally Posted by SoundofSilence To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What if she would've hit him? He was under the influence of drugs and alcohol.. Men are, in general, physically stronger than women, so I don't think that would be such a good idea. In this case I think it's better to play it safe. You think it's no big deal to grab women in the genital area against their will?

I just agree with Catzmenow. That's it.

---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 11:47 AM ----------

Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 12:08 PM ---------- To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 12:09 PM ---------- No one's trying to sell it. Either way, until you've been groped, which I sincerely hope you never will be, please give gropees the benefit of doubt (rather than gropers).

Whats the appropriate response to a female inappropriately groping you? Jail-time?

[IreOfDesire]

It's amazing how many severely sheltered people visit these forums...

[s4nder]

Joys of the Middle East. A guy got a four year prison sentence in Dubai for having a microscopic fiber of cannabis stuck under the bottom of his shoe. Just don't go there.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Midhiel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, it's just my vagina. Key word: my.

Nice strawman. I never argued that it wasn't yours. The argument is that a grown woman in a western society has reourse to defend herself that a child or a woman in an islamic country does not have. You serm to think that women in the west are powerless to defend themselves outside of asking the system to act on their behalf. A bartender who is groped by a patron has numerous solutions at her disposal. She can punch or kick or hit the patron (at almost zero risk of consequences), eject him from the premises, summon a bouncer or co-worker for assistance, or even sue her employer in civil court if the employer fails to protect her. Almost all of those are better remedies in terms of cost and outcome than a prison term, which in scope far exceeds the harm done.

	which is funny, because that sounds like a sentence out of an abortion argument, in which case one's vagina is totally one's own property and no one else's business. Which I totally agree with. In all cases. Including being groped without one's consent.

Strawman again.

	, I see. Perhaps we should just do away with police in general, then. Take the law into our own hands? Figuratively speaking, anyway. Since I guess laws are pointless without police.

It is almost always better for people to resolve minor nuisances on their own, and being groped falls into that category. A grope is not a rape, it is not a theft, it is not a serious crime. Better to teach girls how to handle such things on their oen than to send the message that they are powerless in these scenarios. Further...call the cops in something like this in the u.s. and they will do very little while thinking you are a moron who needs a minder. Women who work in the hospitality industry have many tools at their disposal for handling scenarios like this and become quick to use them, which is why you never see prosecutions of minor incidents like this. And frankly, if a wman does not have the stones to manage drunk guy behavior, she should take a nice clean office job where she won't have to.

This goes beyond seeking equality and into the realm of trying to criminalize relatively minor behavior in some sort of crazy vendetta against men, imo.

---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 08:07 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No one's trying to sell it. Either way, until you've been groped, which I sincerely hope you never will be, please give gropees the benefit of doubt (rather than gropers).

Are you fucking kidding me? I was a sorority girl in the 1980s. I never went to a college party at which someone didn't try to play grabass. It is not that hard to handle drunk guys, bro. And having your tit or ass grabbed is only slightly more annoying than having your shoulder or armed grabbed, in my book. I am certainly not up at nights reliving the nightmare, perhaps because i handled such things pretty forcefully.

I actually remember with some degree of pleasure the first time a drunk idiot frat boy called me a bitch for elbowing him hard in the gut for grabbing my ass. It was a compliment then and it remains a compliment now. In that context, it means "not a doormat."

[Zsych]

Originally Posted by AnnaMolly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So if you don't want strangers grabbing your bum and genitals, you're a prude devoid of any sense of humor? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If that is so, I'm proud of being a humorless prude, and I fully support your notion to not interact with such horrible prudes like myself. May others of your kin follow your lead here! *nods heavily*

Its something you would do with a humorous attitude yourself. It takes some personality to pull this stuff off in a good way. You do it with a big smile and make a joke afterwards, and most decently fun girls like it.

Have the wrong kind of personality, and people don't even like talking to you when you say something completely decent (wrong body language for example, can be quite off putting to simpler people).

Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Listen, being the victim of a violent crime is inherently traumatic. Getting shot, stabbed, or raped are all pretty horrifying things, and should be treated as such. But, it's hard to make the case that being raped is worse than being shot/stabbed/severely beaten. All of those crimes are serious, and all should be treated seriously. And, I believe that just like any other kind of violent victimization, rape is traumatic.

How something affects you tends to depend on different factors - your makeup, your life experiences, and how you are treated.

Someone who has never experienced much pain can be upset it really small things. Others can immediately get over almost anything.

Another side of it is social adaptation. Like being consoled can often be much more humiliating and distressing than the event that you are being consoled for. There is also the matter of the evolution of your personality over time. If you treat the victim of an assault like everything is fine and they should act normal and get on with life - that has a different impact from everyone tiptoeing around them, and feeling sorry for them, and what not else... especially when people just plain won't stop doing it.

A person who is taught to behave like a victim doesn't even need to have experienced something bad. A person can learn to be paranoid without ever having experienced serious problems... these kinds of things are just forms of personality adaptation.

Yes, you got hurt. Your friends don't need to be helping destroy you afterwards. They need to get you back into using your normal habits and your normal way of dealing with problems, as if that one off random crap event, had never happened.

[Analyze]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Shocking that some people think it's appropriate to throw someone into a cage for something so minor. Sick, sick society.

Wait a second...

I'm not supposed to agree with you.

[catzmeow]

Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Its something you would do with a humorous attitude yourself. It takes some personality to pull this stuff off in a good way. You do it with a big smile and make a joke afterwards, and most decently fun girls like it. Have the wrong kind of personality, and people don't even like talking to you when you say something completely decent (wrong body language for example, can be quite off putting to simpler people). How something affects you tends to depend on different factors - your makeup, your life experiences, and how you are treated. Someone who has never experienced much pain can be upset it really small things. Others can immediately get over almost anything. Another side of it is social adaptation. Like being consoled can often be much more humiliating and distressing than the event that you are being consoled for. There is also the matter of the evolution of your personality over time. If you treat the victim of an assault like everything is fine and they should act normal and get on with life - that has a different impact from everyone tiptoeing around them, and feeling sorry for them, and what not else... especially when people just plain won't stop doing it. A person who is taught to behave like a victim doesn't even need to have experienced something bad. A person can learn to be paranoid without ever having experienced serious problems... these kinds of things are just forms of personality adaptation. Yes, you got hurt. Your friends don't need to be helping destroy you afterwards. They need to get you back into using your normal habits and your normal way of dealing with problems, as if that one off random crap event, had never happened.

I disagree on several levels. How people react to trauma really varies. But, a person who has been exposed to a lot of trauma may actually be more susceptible. It can build up, and it also has little to do with how tough you are. It is even possible to get ptsd from recurrent exposure to other people's trauma (compassion fatigue). I think that it largely depends on how you are wired. Definitely, victims of violent crime experience trauma, though some people appear superficially unaffected. Acting like everything is normal is a bit like pretending that someone hasn't died at a funeral.

Victims vary in how they handle this stuff based upon their circumstances and what they believe is socially expected of them. And i do not think you can judge this shit externally.

[Zsych]

Still, would you agree that we can make matters worse when we try to help people? That say, an overprotective parent for example, can be harmful for the development of a child's independent ability to deal with problems?

Maybe something akin to an MBTI personality questionnaire for how people handle different types of life problems would help identify what kind of help would better suit them, and what mental skills they can learn to better deal with their problems - since an adult is usually much more set in their methods for dealing with life than a child is, and may be less capable of adapting well to new circumstances that they have never developed methods for dealing with.

[Sk8ordude]

I dont know what its like in the UAE, but in the states this punishment would be at a cost of $20,000 to the tax payers for locking a man in a cage for 6 months, it would probably damage his productivity for some time and perhaps that of his dependents too. Good job.

[catzmeow]

Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Still, would you agree that we can make matters worse when we try to help people? That say, an overprotective parent for example, can be harmful for the development of a child's independent ability to deal with problems? Maybe something akin to an MBTI personality questionnaire for how people handle different types of life problems would help identify what kind of help would better suit them, and what mental skills they can learn to better deal with their problems - since an adult is usually much more set in their methods for dealing with life than a child is, and may be less capable of adapting well to new circumstances that they have never developed methods for dealing with.

I think that trauma is a field that we are still learning a lot about. For instance, even getting a rape kit at a hospital after a rape can be extremely traumatic for victims.

I think you think I am downplaying the effects of rape, but I'm not. A violent rape is every bit as severe as a severe beating or being shot, and warrants serious treatment. And, there is still a lot that we don't understand. Rapes aren't spread equally throughout the population. Some women are a lot more likely to be raped than others, and victims of sex crimes are more likely to be revictimized, and we don't know why. We also barely skim the surface in research of addressing male victims of sex crimes.

In our zeal to handle this crime better, we may have gone too far in some regards. There are some statistics that treat every unwanted touch or regretted sex act as a rape, and that creates an inaccurate perception of female victimization. Most rape statistics in the U.S. are under-reported in terms of actual crimes, but over-reported in self-report data because of the methodologies currently used.

My views are probably generational, as are the views expressed by younger women. Sexual harassment training is common in westernized nations now and often starts in the high school level. In those classes, people are urged to report harassment to an authority figure (a high school principal or human resources or their boss). And, this is urged primarily for organizational liability reasons. But, someone who is being harassed is often better off, in light of their role in their social hierarchy, if they can handle this on their own without going to an authority figure. Their school or work peers will see them as even more of a victim if they can't handle relatively minor social disputes on their own, without "snitching."

My generation didn't receive harassment training and we were in a transitional era for women's rights so we learned to handle male stupidity on our own. It's one of the reasons that I started taking my daughter to live punk shows when she was about 15, so that she would learn to handle herself in a crowd and feel competent. I was always there to make sure that she was safe, but in that setting, I talked to her constantly, and actually demonstrated a couple of times how to use your fingernails to grab a guy in his armpit and make him move away from you, or how to use your elbows to make your body bigger than it is and create some space for yourself in a crowd. That sounds like non-traditional parenting, I'm sure.

I have observed that if you always go to an authority figure every time you have a problem, you will get zero respect from your peers. And, that respect is almost priceless over your career. That's what younger women who've been trained in a "consult authority" model don't seem to grasp.

[Claudus]

Depending on the situation, groping someone should be considered assault.

[sunitaishot]

Morals are subjective. the convict here needs to learn that.

I don't get how Westerners often go to foreign countries and get in legal trouble, stupidly thinking that legality and morality is different in that society lol...

---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 09:56 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Claudus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Depending on the situation, groping someone should be considered assault.

It is an assault.

---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 10:00 AM ----------

Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think prison time for a grope is over the top. I don't like being groped, particularly by strangers, but it is hardly an egregious crime that warrants jail time. The appropriate response in this case would have been for him to be unceremoniously ejected from the bar by a bouncer, and maybe a citation for being drunk/disorderly. A nice slap across the mug by the bartender might have been in order, as well. I think the fact that you think prison time is an appropriate response to drunk stupidity is rather interesting, though.

Expect Arab countries don't hold our moral/social sensibilties. He should have acknowledged local customs better. it's simple common sense.

---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 10:01 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Eridal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think people are calling it a slight offense due to the fact that there was no recorded physical injuries to the victim nor is there any obvious mental trauma admitted by the victim. Both of which indicate that while she was offended by it just not harmed enough that it will likely cause lasting harm. Of course some of it is because society has marginalized these type of incidents regardless of the gender of the perpetrator and for some it is considered extremely rude and uncalled for given the environment rather than a significant crime. And lastly I think another issue is that there is very little in the articles which shows proof that the crime was actually committed by the accused and that might be dampening the reactions a bit. By that logic cutting off his hand at the wrist would be fine too because I mean he's breaking the law right?

lol... harm is completely subjective, since we sense and perceive differently.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Claudus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Depending on the situation, groping someone should be considered assault.

Simple assaults, unless there are obvious injuries, aren't treated very seriously in our society. They happen, they are relatively normal, and most people suffer almost zero ill effects from them. What percentage of men, do you think, have been involved in a fight or scuffle? What percentage of those men turned around and filed criminal charges afterwards when only suffering a skinned knee or bruised body part? Hardly any, unless there are extenuating circumstances

In the event that an assault causes injury, criminal justice system involvement is generally quite rare, unless the injuries are moderately serious. More likely, a drunken guy who punches someone in a bar will be just be dumped, forcefully, out on the street by a bouncer. That's why many American bars have bouncers in the first place, to handle drunk/stupid people without involving the justice system (most bars do not want the police in their establishment, it's bad for business).

If a drunk stupid guy punches you in the arm, and you get a bruise, are you going to press charges or just punch him back, or walk away? I would say that 99% of men would choose one of the latter options.

Why is a grope somehow worse than a punch? Hint: It isn't.

---------- Post added 07-13-2012 at 10:05 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Expect Arab countries don't hold our moral/social sensibilties. He should have acknowledged local customs better. it's simple common sense.

The part that concerns me is people who are advocating that such standards be adopted for westernized society, where women have many possible ways to handle such behavior. I think that is both absurd/crazy and a little scary.

[Zsych]

@catzmeow: On the rape issue, I think its more to the rape victim that the issue needs to be downplayed. You cannot let them start thinking of it as a significant part of their life, or as something that defines them.

And your parenting style sounds respectable. Parents should be trying to raise competent adults, not pets.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	@catzmeow: On the rape issue, I think its more to the rape victim that the issue needs to be downplayed. You cannot let them start thinking of it as a significant part of their life, or as something that defines them. And your parenting style sounds respectable. Parents should be trying to raise competent adults, not pets.

I don't think that there is one particular protocol that should be used in all rapes. For some rape victims, particularly a male victim of rape by another male, a rape is going to call into question even their baseline sexual identity. It's hard to overplay the seriousness of that. Any serious crime is going to basically remove the victim's sense of safety, and then, depending on how they are wired and how the crime occurred, can cause long-term residual trauma. I don't think that downplaying that trauma would be particularly helpful.

[Zsych]

The side-effects of acknowledging it and thinking about it a lot could also be pretty serious though... although I agree that for most people it would be a horrible shake up.

Cheat by using hypnosis and drugs to invalidate the experience and suppress or confuse the memory? Ultimately, what matters is getting the person back to being able to live their lives reasonably well.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The side-effects of acknowledging it and thinking about it a lot could also be pretty serious though... although I agree that for most people it would be a horrible shake up. Cheat by using hypnosis and drugs to invalidate the experience and suppress or confuse the memory? Ultimately, what matters is getting the person back to being able to live their lives reasonably well.

Actually, one of the better treatment methods for a single traumatic event is EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprogramming). That's what the U.S. military currently recommends for PTSD with veterans and active service personnel, and it is also the preferred method used by a lot of police departments.

Trauma causes a fight/flight response in humans, and as a survival mechanism, I think our brain tags that traumatic event with a recall function to protect us from future victimization or harm. So, anything that reminds the brain of the initial trauma (a smell, a sound, a person who looks like their attacker, etc.) can trigger recall of that memory and cause the individual to experience some form of the physical/emotional fight/flight response, including anxiety/panic attacks, rapid heartbeat, extreme fear, etc.

EMDR therapy somehow helps the brain reprocess that trauma and refile it in a different memory location than the part of the brain that controls the fight/flight response.

There is still a lot to learn about this stuff, though.

[Zsych]

It seems mildly similar to some NLP based approaches, although kinda odd and simpler. Interesting though.