[The Frozen One]

They may have found proof of the Higgs Boson particle at the CERN particle accelerator. Any thoughts about how this affects science as we know it? What's your reaction?


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[Polymath20]

Well it was more or less predicted based on current models, so it doesn't change anything, per se, but it does confirm ideas.

The only thing it could change is if the LHC is able to generate new information and understanding about how this particle behaves and interacts, and if this info is able to be applied in a practical sense (like if it makes cold fusion practical or warp drive or something).

I can imagine how understanding of the origin of mass could be useful for making a subspace field...

---------- Post added 07-02-2012 at 11:00 AM ----------


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[SarcasticVlad]

I guess I'm excited. Can we build mass effect drives with it?

[The Frozen One]

Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well it was more or less predicted based on current models, so it doesn't change anything, per se, but it does confirm ideas. The only thing it could change is if the LHC is able to generate new information and understanding about how this particle behaves and interacts, and if this info is able to be applied in a practical sense (like if it makes cold fusion practical or warp drive or something). I can imagine how understanding of the origin of mass could be useful for making a subspace field... ---------- Post added 07-02-2012 at 11:00 AM ---------- To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Do you think such applications (subspace fields) to be practical? I imagine it would take a great deal of energy to produce such a thing.

[Polymath20]

	Originally Posted by The Frozen One To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you think such applications (subspace fields) to be practical? I imagine it would take a great deal of energy to produce such a thing.

I doubt we'll have something that renders an object massless, but learning about the way that mass behaves at a quantum level could allow us to do some crazy thing.

As above, a Mass Effect-style relay may be more practical, as it may require a tremendous amount of energy relative to the mass of the object being accelerated.

-----

more far-out theories suggest that UFO's actually generate their own "gravity", and as such they aren't really accelerating, but responding to an otherwise natural gravity well. Theoretically, this allows them to rapidly change direction, while the crew experiences almost no inertia. Also, theoretically, you could accelerate beyond the speed of light, relatively speaking, because you wouldn't actually be traveling faster than light, your ship would create a "bubble" around you. Maybe knowledge of the Higgs-Boson will allow us to do something like that. Probably not. I can only wish, though.

[Malkavia]

So...what does this mean for those of us who have no idea what the God Particle is?
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[thod]

	Originally Posted by SarcasticVlad To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess I'm excited. Can we build mass effect drives with it?

It would be far more exciting if they did not find it. The physicists would have to come up with new ideas and that new physics may give you warp drives. Finding it means everything is as boring as we thought.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by Malkavia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So...what does this mean for those of us who have no idea what the God Particle is? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not much.

The Higgs Boson is a particle that's supposed to give atoms their mass. That doesn't mean much to your average person.

[SarcasticVlad]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It would be far more exciting if they did not find it. The physicists would have to come up with new ideas and that new physics may give you warp drives. Finding it means everything is as boring as we thought.

I see your point, but there is still a lot left for us to discover. Besides, maybe a discovery like this could lead to new technologies.

Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

more far-out theories suggest that UFO's actually generate their own "gravity", and as such they aren't really accelerating, but responding to an otherwise natural gravity well. Theoretically, this allows them to rapidly change direction, while the crew experiences almost no inertia. Also, theoretically, you could accelerate beyond the speed of light, relatively speaking, because you wouldn't actually be traveling faster than light, your ship would create a "bubble" around you. Maybe knowledge of the Higgs-Boson will allow us to do something like that. Probably not. I can only wish, though.

I actually thought about that some time ago. I wasn't aware there was a UFO theory about it as well. That's so cool. I'll definitely have something interesting to read and think about this summer.

[Nightmare]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not much. The Higgs Boson is a particle that's supposed to give atoms their mass. That doesn't mean much to your average person.

Does more than that, friend. The higgs boson implies that 'space' itself, without any matter (essentially, stuff) in it, has stuff in it.
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[The Dan Keizer]

Wait a minute. People don't understand the origin of mass?

[Polymath20]

	Originally Posted by Nightmare To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does more than that, friend. The higgs boson implies that 'space' itself, without any matter (essentially, stuff) in it, has stuff in it. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

We've "known" that for some time. The K factor of gravity, the c of light, everything must have a medium to travel through. Matter and energy are one and the same, just different manifestations of the same stuff. Even in a pure vacuum, the background tapestry/soup of luminiferous aether, as Tesla called it, exists and moves and flows.

The only problem is that the aether doesn't interact with matter on a macro scale in a way that makes sense to us. Sure, we see gravity and magnetism and so we have empirical evidence that something is there, but it exists "below" our experience of the universe.

---------- Post added 07-02-2012 at 02:48 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by The Dan Keizer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wait a minute. People don't understand the origin of mass?

We understand the mass/energy duality, but we are not sure what conveys mass. At what point does fundamental energy gain mass? At what point in the hierarchy of particles does mass become measurable? These are the kinds of question the Higgs Boson could answer.

---------- Post added 07-02-2012 at 02:51 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by SarcasticVlad To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I actually thought about that some time ago. I wasn't aware there was a UFO theory about it as well. That's so cool. I'll definitely have something interesting to read and think about this summer.

unfortunately, given my understanding, I don't see how a vessel could motivate its own gradient of gravity. You would somehow have to generate a gravity well that is off-center from your own center-of-gravity. Maybe if you could figure out a way to focus mass-less energy (like lasers or something) to a point near your ship and have them magically generate Higgs particles....

supposedly the Nazi's tried to do some high energy experiments with highly charged, fast flowing mercury in a toroid. I think the idea was to concentrate a lot of flowing energy in a specific pattern (circle/toroid) and that should have some neat gravity effects. Apparently all the scientists who witnessed it got really sick with what would look like radiation poisoning.

[The Dan Keizer]

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We understand the mass/energy duality, but we are not sure what conveys mass. At what point does fundamental energy gain mass? At what point in the hierarchy of particles does mass become measurable? These are the kinds of question the Higgs Boson could answer.

Oh, I thought we did.

I think of it like a nucleus is a broadcasting station and the radius between the nucleus and the outlying electrons is its broadcasting range. The "signal" is the elemental traits of that arrangement of protons and neutrons. The rest of the universe "recieves" that signal as mass and whatever additional properties.

I don't really know anything about science, though, so I may be wrong.

[SarcasticVlad]

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	unfortunately, given my understanding, I don't see how a vessel could motivate its own gradient of gravity. You would somehow have to generate a gravity well that is off-center from your own center-of-gravity. Maybe if you could figure out a way to focus mass-less energy (like lasers or something) to a point near your ship and have them magically generate Higgs particles...

You mean like the technology to create Higgs particles? Maybe it's possible. Why not? And now we've officially moved to the realm of sci-fi.
Seriously though. A 100 years ago who would have thought that we'd have internet, smartphones and Obama? Who knows what's gonna be possible a 100 years from now. Asian president?

[Sk8ordude]

Sweet, I'm as excited as a layman can be.

[Polymath20]

Originally Posted by The Dan Keizer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Oh, I thought we did. I think of it like a nucleus is a broadcasting station and the radius between the nucleus and the outlying electrons is its broadcasting range. The "signal" is the elemental traits of that arrangement of protons and neutrons. The rest of the universe "recieves" that signal as mass and whatever additional properties. I don't really know anything about science, though, so I may be wrong.

The theory of gravitons is more what you're talking about there - as in a particle which conveys the attractive force of mass (gravity). I do not believe that this is true, but rather I believe that mass and all the wiggling that it does causes a current in the underlying aether, and that the current of this aether is what pulls objects together. Therefore, I doubt that we shall ever discover a graviton.

	Originally Posted by SarcasticVlad To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You mean like the technology to create Higgs particles? Maybe it's possible. Why not? And now we've officially moved to the realm of sci-fi. Seriously though. A 100 years ago who would have thought that we'd have internet, smartphones and Obama? Who knows what's gonna be possible a 100 years from now. Asian president?

Michele Bachman gets resurrected and elected president of the Estados Unidos de Amerixicada

[Latro]

Originally Posted by The Dan Keizer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Oh, I thought we did. I think of it like a nucleus is a broadcasting station and the radius between the nucleus and the outlying electrons is its broadcasting range. The "signal" is the elemental traits of that arrangement of protons and neutrons. The rest of the universe "recieves" that signal as mass and whatever additional properties. I don't really know anything about science, though, so I may be wrong.

Well for one thing the electrons have their own mass too, but also this isn't really how the current models of physics conceive of the fundamental forces. I'm not really sure how they went from "OK, tiny things are governed by the Schrodinger equation; what's the potential?" to "forces are themselves quantum effects with mediating particles", but they did, and this is how most of the fundamental forces are already understood at the tiny level. They think gravity works a bit different even from those, though, as Polymath said.

[The Dan Keizer]

Originally Posted by Latro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well for one thing the electrons have their own mass too, but also this isn't really how the current models of physics conceive of the fundamental forces. I'm not really sure how they went from "OK, tiny things are governed by the Schrodinger equation; what's the potential?" to "forces are themselves quantum effects with mediating particles", but they did, and this is how most of the fundamental forces are already understood at the tiny level. They think gravity works a bit different even from those, though, as Polymath said.

The mass of an electron is pretty negligible, dude. And I don't know what particles forming into matter with mass has to do with gravity. Does gravity have a place in this discussion? I would think that's like connecting a runny nose with germs. It's like apples and oranges, or maybe even apples and wood or a rock or something.

[ppu6502]

It's empirical evidence which helps confirm our understanding of the universe.

Sanity check, of sorts. Healthy for science. Healthy for science funding.

[Latro]

	Originally Posted by The Dan Keizer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The mass of an electron is pretty negligible, dude.

Ah but it's not--for one thing, if an electron had no mass, it would travel at c, and the usual quantum momentum operator would have a division by zero in it, meaning that matter would be a completely and totally different animal. Its gravitational contribution is small but still not completely negligible--about 0.03% of the mass of an atom is contributed by electrons.

	And I don't know what particles forming into matter with mass has to do with gravity. Does gravity have a place in this discussion? I would think that's like connecting a runny nose with germs. It's like apples and oranges, or maybe even apples and wood or a rock or something.

Inertial mass and gravitational mass appear to coincide in all situations. This may not be true on the tiniest quantum scale, however.

[The Dan Keizer]

Originally Posted by Latro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ah but it's not--for one thing, if an electron had no mass, it would travel at c, and the usual quantum momentum operator would have a division by zero in it, meaning that matter would be a completely and totally different animal. Its gravitational contribution is small but still not completely negligible--about 0.03% of the mass of an atom is contributed by electrons. Inertial mass and gravitational mass appear to coincide in all situations. This may not be true on the tiniest quantum scale, however.

That's kind of like saying the weight of the gas in the tank of your car is not negligible in factoring gas mileage. I mean technically yeah but it pales in comparison to more important factors.

Again, at a quantum level, the entities involved are so small that gravity will matter little in the face of the other forces at work on those particles and that scale. I just don't understand why you would even consider gravity, unless you were doing some extremely fine behavior study, until you at least got to an atomic level.

[Latro]

	Originally Posted by The Dan Keizer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's kind of like saying the weight of the gas in the tank of your car is not negligible in factoring gas mileage. I mean technically yeah but it pales in comparison to more important factors.

True, but it does add up. When you consider how precisely tuned some of the physical constants have been found to be, 0.03% is quite a bit.

	Again, at a quantum level, the entities involved are so small that gravity will matter little in the face of the other forces at work on those particles and that scale. I just don't understand why you would even consider gravity, unless you were doing some extremely fine behavior study, until you at least got to an atomic level.

Because inertia and gravity seem to be awfully tightly linked, more or less.

[Reginald X]

ProTip: Physicists hate the phrase "god particle."

Gravity is a fundamental problem at small length scales - theories with gravitons are plagued with infinite divergences because, in concept, they're blessed with the distinct privilege of determining the spacetime trajectories of everything. Including themselves. Because this self-interaction builds the stage on which the other forces play out (not merely the forces themselves), it is a fundamentally knottier problem. As mentioned, gravitons might not even exist.

btw that's not the same thing as the Higgs.

[sesquipedalian2]

Most exciting news I've heard in a while.
I wonder what they will discover next. Very exciting indeed.

[shytiger]

I'm confused about why so many people are saying the Higgs boson (or more correctly "mechanism") gives all particles mass. My understanding is that the minimal standard model only requires that it give W and Z bosons mass to explain spontaneous symmetry breaking of the electroweak force. Finding the Higgs boson supports that idea but doesn't say anything about what gives electrons and protons mass. While the Higgs mechanism can be extended to fermions, I don't see that there is evidence that it does explain mass entirely.

And in case you don't understand a thing that I just said, I'm really just complaining that people are being overzealous about the Higgs boson's importance to the origin of mass.