[Ravendicon]

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This 2012-2013 school year, thanks to a bill pushed through by governor Bobby Jindal, thousands of students in Louisiana will receive state voucher money, transferred from public school funding, to attend private religious schools, some of which teach from a Christian curriculum that suggests the Loch Ness Monster disproves evolution and states that the alleged creature, which has never been demonstrated to even exist, has been tracked by submarine and is probably a plesiosaur. The curriculum also claims that a Japanese fishing boat caught a dinosaur.

Sadly, that's only the half of it. Read the full article if you want a good chuckle. Programs like these are also being pushed in Pennsylvania.

In the past, I've been a big supporter of private school voucher programs; I've always thought they would be beneficial to our education system, but after seeing this article, I'm beginning to rethink my position.

It's one thing for taxpayer money to go toward private education, but it's an entirely different issue if those schools are pushing an extreme religious view. This kind of thing really pushes the boundaries of separation of church and state, as well as making our students even more dumb than they already are.

Are you comfortable with the idea of your tax dollars going paying for this kind of nonsense?

[Monte314]

By using the phrase "extreme religious view", are you saying that a "moderate" religious view is acceptable to you? What's the difference?

[Vagrant]

This is why I far prefer public schools for children (unless the parents can afford private education). Public schools *MUST* meet certain standards of education. Public schools must take no stance on religious issues. By all rights, public schools are far more accountable than other schools.

[Urshulgi]

Having attended a catholic private school from kindergarten through fourth grade, I can say that they aren't very fundamentalist.

Certain sects of protestants could probably be trusted, like the Methodists and Lutherans.

Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. though, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a classroom, because they're fucking zealots.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by plotthickens

School vouchers in Louisiana, Pennsylvania and other states allow parents to send their kids to whatever school they want. That's perfectly lawful, except that some of those schools aren't able to take an influx, and more than that, some or even many are teaching unapproved 2004-vintage piles of steaming evangelical shit. So anyway. Here are some of the things these textbooks teach: Modern Africa needs the Bible. Only 10% of Africans in Africa are literate. Humans and dinosaurs co-existed. God designed “checks and balances” to prevent environmental crises, so chill! After all, “Roses are red, violets are blue; they both grow better with more CO2.” “Rumors” of foreclosures, high unemployment, homelessness, and general misery during the Great Depression are just socialist propaganda. The Ku Klux Klan kept "blacks, Catholics and Jews 'in their place'." The Klan were "a means of reform" who fought "bootleggers, wifebeaters and immoral movies" and achieved "a certain respectability as it worked with politicians". Unions just want to destroy the accomplishments of “hardworking Americans.” Mormons, Unitarians, and Catholics = bad. “God used the ‘Trail of Tears’ to bring many Indians to Christ” “Through the Negro spiritual, slaves developed patience to wait on the Lord and discovered that the truest freedom is freedom from the bondage of sin.” To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. href="http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/06/21/a-close-look-at-some-evangelical-textbooks/" target="_blank">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages...cal-textbooks/ Is this what you want the younger generation to be taught?   Originally Posted by TMM Which textbooks would these be? Who is producing them, and who is using them? Your OP doesn't say. I am very familiar with all the major publishers of Christian textbooks, and many of the minor ones, by virtue of having overseen one of the largest State homeschool associations in the United States for almost 10 years. I have never seen ANY of the nonsense you cite in any of the textbooks that are in general use in Christian schools. Please give me the specifics on these books so that I can take appropriate action. They have schools in Louisiana? I read a similar article in the extreme left site "alternet". I'd consider the source, although I'm sure there's some truth to it. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Kitesurf has provided a good reference... but only one curriculum, ACE, is addressed in any detail. The article mentions A Beka and Bob Jones, but does not provide a lot of specific criticism, presumably because these are not "kooky" enough for a good story. In fact, they are both quite good (despite containing occasional references to matters of faith when they are relevant to the material). I am quite familiar with ACE. I have for years advised people not to use it. The school for which my wife serves as Principal does not allow use of the ACE curriculum in any of its programs. An article misleads by leaving the reader with the impression that ACE is representative of curricula used in Christian schools; it most certainly is not. But it is used in some schools and home education programs; I wish it were not.

The link in the OP had all the data. Here it is again and more links to help you out:


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<< Shocking Christian school textbooks

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<< rather good article breaking it down, with links

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<< School Choice: Taxpayer-Funded Creationism, Bigotry, and Bias from Rachel Tabachnick on Vimeo

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<< Examples from A Beka Book and Bob Jones University Press Curricula from Bruce Wilson on Vimeo


~~~SCREECHING HALT~~~


Wait wait wait. Those examples I gave in that list were all from A Beka Book textbooks. Didn't you, TMM, say something about those textbooks?

	The article mentions A Beka and Bob Jones, but does not provide a lot of specific criticism, presumably because these are not "kooky" enough for a good story. In fact, they are both quite good (despite containing occasional references to matters of faith when they are relevant to the material).

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Well I guess we've all learned something here today.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by Urshulgi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Having attended a catholic private school from kindergarten through fourth grade, I can say that they aren't very fundamentalist. Certain sects of protestants could probably be trusted, like the Methodists and Lutherans. Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. though, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a classroom, because they're fucking zealots.

I've heard Catholic schools do a good job of making non-Catholics out of their students. Heard it from a Priest.

If private schools teach children better than public schools then parents would be stupid not to put their children in private schools. Lets face it, many public schools are failing and many public school teachers are clock punchers who don't really care but are in a union so they have job security unless they do something like fuck a student.

[PovertyPenalty]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If private schools teach children better than public schools then parents would be stupid not to put their children in private schools.

There are many parents who can't afford private schools. That's why their children continue to go to public schools.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by PovertyPenalty To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There are many parents who can't afford private schools. That's why their children continue to go to public schools.

That is why vouchers are a good idea. If it weren't for unions this would not be an issue.

You can leave now as there is a rant about unions coming... coming...


Unions used to be like guilds. They guaranteed quality work by their members and if you had a problem with a job that was done you would call the union and they would get the job done to your satisfaction. Those days are long gone. Now unions are simply organizations who serve special interest groups. They don't care about shoddy work done by their members. All they do is demand more pay and benefits for their members without doing anything related to adding value to the product their members put out. The way this is done with teachers is a disgrace. Some schools are failing miserably and the union does nothing to help its members do a better job. The just protect lazy and sometimes incompetent teachers from getting sacked.

[PovertyPenalty]

Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That is why vouchers are a good idea. If it weren't for unions this would not be an issue. You can leave now as there is a rant about unions coming... coming... Unions used to be like guilds. They guaranteed quality work by their members and if you had a problem with a job that was done you would call the union and they would get the job done to your satisfaction. Those days are long gone. Now unions are simply organizations who serve special interest groups. They don't care about shoddy work done by their members. All they do is demand more pay and benefits for their members without doing anything related to adding value to the product their members put out. The way this is done with teachers is a disgrace. Some schools are failing miserably and the union does nothing to help its members do a better job. The just protect lazy and sometimes incompetent teachers from getting sacked.

We don't entirely disagree with each other here. I'd wish children would get a better education. I just don't want money that should be going to public schools to get funneled to private religious schools.

One of the few unions I will never defend are the teacher's unions. There is no reason why K-12 teachers should have tenure and be protected from getting fired. Tenure should be reserved for college professors and college professors only.

I highly recommend the documentary Waiting for Superman. It shows how terrible our public school system has become with one of the main reasons being teacher tenure.

[Autumnleaf]

Originally Posted by PovertyPenalty To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

We don't entirely disagree with each other here. I'd wish children would get a better education. I just don't want money that should be going to public schools to get funneled to private religious schools. One of the few unions I will never defend are the teacher's unions. There is no reason why K-12 teachers should have tenure and be protected from getting fired. Tenure should be reserved for college professors and college professors only. I highly recommend the documentary Waiting for Superman. It shows how terrible our public school system has become with one of the main reasons being teacher tenure.

If private religious schools get the job done where public schools fail then they get my vote. Of the people I know the ones who went to public schools tend to be more anti-gay than the ones who went to private Christian schools. I don't think Christians schools teach children to hate the way the Muslim schools overseas do. I think the focus on forgiveness in Christian schools is more powerful than people realize.

[PovertyPenalty]

Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If private religious schools get the job done where public schools fail then they get my vote. Of the people I know the ones who went to public schools tend to be more anti-gay than the ones who went to private Christian schools. I don't think Christians schools teach children to hate the way the Muslim schools overseas do. I think the focus on forgiveness in Christian schools is more powerful than people realize.

I see where you're coming from, but you specifically mention private Christian schools. Implementing the voucher system across the land would funnel money to Jewish schools, Muslim schools, Hindu schools, and even Scientology schools.

And of the people I know, the ones who went to private Christian schools see the world in very black and white terms with little to no patience for differing viewpoints.

[Daoist]

	Originally Posted by PovertyPenalty To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And of the people I know, the ones who went to private Christian schools see the world in very black and white terms with little to no patience for differing viewpoints.

I hate to say it, but this is one area where tests can make a difference. Certain kinds of curricula (for instance, I'm working now with the International Baccalaureate program) have tests that don't use multiple choice, where it will become clear very quickly how well you can see different viewpoints at the same time.

[Collide]

Private schools teach some really ridiculous material. That article was scary! I think our money could be better invested in properly funding our public schools. Why did you previously think they were beneficial to our education system?

Of course this is all subjective but I have experienced different attitudes with students from Christian schools. They have experienced much greater wealth but they are intolerant and not accepting. It's sad because they all flooded into the advanced science courses at my school (because advanced courses have much more to do with economic status than skill) and it was apparent that they were scientifically illiterate.

As far as teacher tenure goes, it was bargained for. If we paid teachers a larger salary, more suitable to the job we'd like them to perform, then you could bargain away tenure. We could weed out the bad teachers and only keep the teachers who are competent and deserve the pay. Even better, we could attract math and science teachers with talent (Why would anyone talented in STEM become a teacher when they could make so much more money in another field?).

[krisl]

Schools need to be held accountable. The kids need to be able to pass standardized tests, no matter which school it is. I think private schools have a better chance of doing a good job, and vouchers would give kids from disadvantaged families a better chance for the future.

I agree that people should understand the theory of evolution (you might be surprised how many people believe it who don't really seem to understand it), but I don't think anyone, including students, have to be required to believe this theory.

[Kitesurf]

Another subjective response follows, I'm certainly not an expert in this field. However I'm very opinionated, so what the heck, here it is.

All schools (k-12) are ridiculously inefficient.
All sports should be disassociated from the schools. While they provide for a healthy life style for a few students, and bring addition dollars in, they immensely distract from the main goal.

Students should be tested, but the test should include major portions devoted to evaluating whether the students comprehend the material, not just whether they can match up known answers with already known questions. Also, tests shouldn't be tied directly to school funding as that pressures the teachers to teach only what they will need to pass the test.

Religious schools should be required to teach science within national standards which will not include that "intelligent design" ignorance. Separate religious class's can teach that if they so choose.

Students should be given the opportunity to take tests to find out the best ways for them to learn. Schools should support that. Example, if 25% of the students learn better and faster on the own, there should be more class's offered to those students where they learn on their own and the teacher is there more to answer questions.

Parents should be required to pay a small amount of money for their kids to attend even a public school. It's amazing how much ownership people will take when they have to pay a few dollars (of course certain income levels will have to be waived.).

Religious schools that don't meet minimum requirements should be given the option to pay back funding received from the tax payers. With other draconian alternatives if they refuse.

This is how it will be when Kitesurf becomes king..

[Tocsin]

	Originally Posted by Ravendicon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In the past, I've been a big supporter of private school voucher programs; I've always thought they would be beneficial to our education system, but after seeing this article, I'm beginning to rethink my position.

Then there's this...

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Some students at private schools in Louisiana are being taught that Scotland's fabled Loch Ness monster is real, a claim that is then held as evidence disproving Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, the Scotsman reports. Thousands of students across the state are eligible to receive publicly funded vouchers to allow them to attend private Christian schools where textbooks published by Accelerated Christian Education (ACE) claim the monster was actually a dinosaur that existed at the same time as man, an assertion which conflicts with the theory of evolution. The Times Educational Supplement, a British publication for teachers, published an article in 2009 that included an excerpt from Accelerated Christian Education's Biology 1099 textbook, which was published in 1995:   Are dinosaurs alive today? Scientists are becoming more convinced of their existence. Have you heard of the `Loch Ness Monster' in Scotland? `Nessie,' for short has been recorded on sonar from a small submarine, described by eyewitnesses, and photographed by others. Nessie appears to be a plesiosaur. Could a fish have developed into a dinosaur? As astonishing as it may seem, many evolutionists theorize that fish evolved into amphibians and amphibians into reptiles. This gradual change from fish to reptiles has no scientific basis. No transitional fossils have been or ever will be discovered because God created each type of fish, amphibian, and reptile as separate, unique animals. Any similarities that exist among them are due to the fact that one Master Craftsmen fashioned them all.

In regards to the last bit, what can I say but
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and
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.

[Imperator]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've heard Catholic schools do a good job of making non-Catholics out of their students. Heard it from a Priest.

Went to one, the priest is right.

	Of the people I know the ones who went to public schools tend to be more anti-gay than the ones who went to private Christian schools. I don't think Christians schools teach children to hate the way the Muslim schools overseas do. I think the focus on forgiveness in Christian schools is more powerful than people realize.

Catholic school I went to had fuck all to do with "forgiveness".

	Originally Posted by article
	textbooks published by Accelerated Christian Education (ACE)

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Guess they won't be interested in hiring me to teach the Greek New Testament....

[Urshulgi]

Often the reason that private schools can succeed is that the school has the option of booting troublesome students, or failing bad students.

Public schools are increasingly having every last tool of student and parent accountability taken out of their hands.