[UKsplendid]

LOL, I understand the prayer thing now, as did Garboab in the valley of the heephites, and his father, and his father before him, thanks to the glory and majesty of the great lord, amen.

[Smacknrat]

^ Haha. That's more or less what came to mind for me when talking to my INTP friend. Him being raised traditionally Catholic only added to the humor.

[Chameleon]

I have many styles myself:

The witted intuition: one liners of analogy.

The computed intuition: short answers that hold vast meaning; but no road leading to it (perceived as ignorant or insightful).

The subconscious stream: complex thoughts written with deep layers; where each person may see what they are able or willing to see.

The rare Ti use: long step by step (and usually outlined) explanation of thought process leading to an end result (but never concrete).

Though all are used to provoke thought (likely from a different angle); and not to change anyones personal ideas (if I can avoid it).

I know that whatever style I use, people may not like it; I do apologize for it, to those people. I do not write well. I am trying my best to improve. Please have patience for us INTPs that are lacking efficiency.

[SeverusSin]

	Originally Posted by Lilie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You forgot about Ne vs Ni. INTJs are much more concise. Sometimes I ramble on looking for an answer, but once I find it I distill it down to the basic idea and delete all the thought-process garbage. No one needs to read that.

Whatever happened to showing your working for extra marks??

[Lilie]

	Originally Posted by SeverusSin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Whatever happened to showing your working for extra marks??

Oh man, I struggled with that when I was in school. I always wanted to skip ahead a couple steps and not waste time writing everything down.

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by Lilie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh man, I struggled with that when I was in school. I always wanted to skip ahead a couple steps and not waste time writing everything down.

Never struggled with it. Others did. I used to write all the answers down, without any working out. My teacher said that the examiners would be sure that I had cheated, unless I was made to learn to write my working out. So I had to have a private tutor for about a year, just to get me to explain how I got to my conclusions.

[jndiii]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Never struggled with it. Others did. I used to write all the answers down, without any working out. My teacher said that the examiners would be sure that I had cheated, unless I was made to learn to write my working out. So I had to have a private tutor for about a year, just to get me to explain how I got to my conclusions.

Yeah, this is where INTP and INTJ are very similar: we're both good at figuring it out in our heads.

There is a mild difference, though, due to Te vs Ne: Te actually works better if you write things down and organize them outside yourself, and basically it leverages the outside world to hold a framework while Ni navigates that framework. Ne, OTOH, works better by talking things out, so Ti can leverage an Ne-style discussion of ideas (that Ti cares about) into further understandings that would not have been reached by Ti alone.

[scorpiomover]

Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, this is where INTP and INTJ are very similar: we're both good at figuring it out in our heads. There is a mild difference, though, due to Te vs Ne: Te actually works better if you write things down and organize them outside yourself, and basically it leverages the outside world to hold a framework while Ni navigates that framework. Ne, OTOH, works better by talking things out, so Ti can leverage an Ne-style discussion of ideas (that Ti cares about) into further understandings that would not have been reached by Ti alone.

If you mean, that methods employed in Western schools, favoured INTJ cognitive styles, over INTP cognitive styles, I would agree with that.

We're already regarded as the laziest and the least productive. If not for INTPs being complete auto-didacts, we'd probably be regarded as the idiots of MBTI as well.

Also explains why I LOVED Yeshiva. Everything was talked out.

Also explains why INTJs HATE working for bosses. Bosses usually want to know how things are going, and approach you, so you can tell them how things are going.

[babsa]

Originally Posted by anticlimatic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Trust me, Ni users, we do need to read that...particularly when the 'basic idea' you've distilled is the wrong one, and we're left wondering exactly what planet you've landed on. Informing us how you got there can help us retroactively adjust your course-- though I hear this isn't something J types ever prefer to do. :P It's ironic to hear Ti run-off-sentences being described as beating around the bush, when in fact it's much more of a thorough overkill whacking of the bush in question. Perpetually avoiding the explanation of how you arrived to conclusions seems much more 'rambling' to us-- in an odd string of seemingly baseless and eccentric judgements, wherein each probing question simply leads to another, seemingly off-topic one. Funny how that works.

I completely agree; this happens on a daily basis. When someone asks me a question pertaining to work, i will give them all of the relevant details. How can someone trust what i have to say about my conclusion if they don't even know how i got there? That is like solving a complex algebraic problem and writing down "42". Well great, now i can either trust you did it right or check the highlights of your problem solving to verify you are actually right - which makes more sense?

Originally Posted by OwenF To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Our Father, who art in Hypothetical Taylorist Neverland, hallowed be thy writing tablet. Thy thesis come. Thy analysis be heeded, in meatland as it is mindland. Give us this day our daily takeout Chinese, and forgive us our forgetfulness, as we have forgotten those who forgave us last week. And lead us not into idle speculation, but deliver us from the "Evil" disambiguation page on Wikipedia. For thine is the geographic area, the joules per second, and the aura produced by certain migraine headaches. For ever and cetera. Affirmative.

Bravo!

[Chameleon]

Originally Posted by OwenF To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Our Father, who art in Hypothetical Taylorist Neverland, hallowed be thy writing tablet. Thy thesis come. Thy analysis be heeded, in meatland as it is mindland. Give us this day our daily takeout Chinese, and forgive us our forgetfulness, as we have forgotten those who forgave us last week. And lead us not into idle speculation, but deliver us from the "Evil" disambiguation page on Wikipedia. For thine is the geographic area, the joules per second, and the aura produced by certain migraine headaches. For ever and cetera. Affirmative.

True, bravo. This is an excellent example of a beautiful INTP mind expressing itself. And sometimes you need to be assured that it is appreciated. I hope to see more of this from all INTPs here.

[jndiii]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you mean, that methods employed in Western schools, favoured INTJ cognitive styles, over INTP cognitive styles, I would agree with that.

That's an implication of what I meant, but it isn't what I meant.

Note that the tendency to keep it in one's head is still there due to Ni. Aux Te is often imperfectly wielded during the school years. Leveraging that particular Te talent is still a learned skill. Even now, I just sit there and think for a few hours/days (depending on my overall schedule and free time), and then, when I think I have something useable, I write it down. Or, if I need to figure out a problem faster and I am feeling stuck, I will write down my thoughts so that I can sort them out. Even talking it out can help put the ideas "outside of me" so that I perceive them differently than before, essentially a version of the
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
. Or writing an email often helps: I figure out the problem as I write it, and end up deleting the email.

	We're already regarded as the laziest and the least productive. If not for INTPs being complete auto-didacts, we'd probably be regarded as the idiots of MBTI as well.

W/r to others' opinions of INTPs, what I usually see is that they love the sheer competency that INTPs display, but have difficulty with how INTPs tend to spend time on work that is out of scope for the current plan. To be clear, it may very well be true that there are good reasons that the work actually is in scope, but INTPs tend not to communicate that part very well, mostly because it's obvious to them that the work is in scope.

For this reason, I sometimes think "Agile" methodology was developed to help INTPs (and INTJs) interface with management: it provides a structured feedback loop so that management can more quickly see when the team is going off on a tangent, and evaluate whether that tangent is worthwhile.

	Also explains why I LOVED Yeshiva. Everything was talked out. Also explains why INTJs HATE working for bosses. Bosses usually want to know how things are going, and approach you, so you can tell them how things are going.

Depends on the boss and the methods of management. If the boss needs a status update email CC'd to a bunch of people, no problem. If the boss needs to get in my face in order to have his oh-so-valuable "face time", and that happens to be right in the middle of doing what I'm doing, then I have a problem. I tend to regard the latter as a form of micromanagement.

When I start new in an organization, I immediately start working on developing a level of trust where the boss doesn't feel like he has to keep tabs on me at all times. In most cases, it's a habit developed due to having to deal with employees who tend not to be productive unless you continually remind them of the their task priorities. Once they're aware that they can ignore me and I'll get the job done, they sigh with relief and leave me alone - and even occasionally cheer when they see the work getting done as they expected it to be.

Should the micromanagement continue anyway, then it's time to look for a new job.

[shytiger]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you mean, that methods employed in Western schools, favoured INTJ cognitive styles, over INTP cognitive styles, I would agree with that.

This is forced upon us in many cases because when you go to teach a course, unless it's some elective seminar or something or you're a heavyweight in your department, most profs/teachers are handed a curriculum or book and told to teach certain things. If we took the time to have class discussions, many things wouldn't get covered in class and the students would do badly on the test because most of them never study anything not covered in lecture. It's a bad cycle. In the humanities where discussion is the norm they don't seem to lament about what doesn't get covered.

I will admit though that my natural teaching style is very bullet-pointed and most of the students love it.

	We're already regarded as the laziest and the least productive. If not for INTPs being complete auto-didacts, we'd probably be regarded as the idiots of MBTI as well.

I've found INTPs to be just as productive (and unproductive) as any other type, but, when confronted with something very boring and predictable, they will tend to give up on it. My former Ph.D. advisor (I don't know how typical he is as an INTP but he's the only one I know really well) is far more productive than me because he spends 5 hours a day working on his interests while I spend my days working on all the things I "have to" do. You might say his time management is better because he sticks to his interests while I worry about all the consequences of this or that not getting done. When bad things happen because he didn't keep promises, he shrugs it off. I couldn't do that.

[Distance]

In retrospect, I used to have an INTP employee who followed me from firm to firm. He used to drive some employers crazy since he'd think everything out to the most minute detail prior to proceeding. But when he finally took action, the results were bullet proof.

Because he was so thorough and dependably precise, he was always placed in litigation sensitive or cost sensitive positions of the senior variety where there were no looming deadlines and left alone to parse every issue. Since the problems he had to solve had start and end points, he could sink his teeth into firstly, understanding all aspects, then proposing the best solution or solutions. Basically, Ti-Ne-Si doing what it does best and left alone to learn different aspects of the business and to accomplish.

When he hit a stumbling block or lacked information, he would meet with me and we would go through every detail. Most often it was his lack of confidence in his decision-making abilities or conclusions that were the cause of his stumbling blocks, so talking it out with a few minor tweaks and pats on the back, helped him to realise that the direction of his research, conclusions or decisions were usually bang on.

Don't ever try to micro-manage an INTP of quality or place them in time-sensitive positions. You nullify their effectiveness through erosion of their confidence level, stress at deadlines and invasiveness where their autonomy needs will throw up a wall.

[deconspire]

I can't hardly carry on a conversation with a hardcore INTJ (or want to). Blahblahblahblah, ramblerambleramble, inflexible point, finally. Although some of you are wonderfully concise, and exploratory with ideas.

But the Bermuda Ti-angle and Ne-oterics of my mind are prolly annoying as shit to you as well.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[The Dan Keizer]

I always enjoyed making one sentence reviews of books, movies and records.

[leslissocool]

I think we tend to be a lot more reflective overall, which would explain why our speech in general is actually a lot more scattered. We do not think in a linearly, but rather make connections that many people would judge as random, or unnecessary.

That's one of the reasons we are able to be a lot more creative and "think outside the box". In truth, we ARE outside the box and our 52 word sentences are out there with us.

[vampyroteuthis]

52 spillage is still playing with a full deck.

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Even talking it out can help put the ideas "outside of me" so that I perceive them differently than before, essentially a version of the To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

Been doing that since at least when I was in Yeshiva, if not before. I've done it often at work, when my boss gave me something to do, and I couldn't get my head around it. Quite often, the process would reveal a major fault in the system that he'd overlooked. So it was very appreciated.

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or writing an email often helps: I figure out the problem as I write it, and end up deleting the email.

I used to get my posts slammed a lot. Then I took to writing my posts out on gedit first, and then reading it back, to see if it made sense. I now write all my posts in drafts, and sometimes, several times, to get it right. I've also recently found out that it's an INTP thing to re-write drafts of posts several times before posting.

Both of these are Ti things, as well as Te things.

Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

W/r to others' opinions of INTPs, what I usually see is that they love the sheer competency that INTPs display, but have difficulty with how INTPs tend to spend time on work that is out of scope for the current plan. To be clear, it may very well be true that there are good reasons that the work actually is in scope, but INTPs tend not to communicate that part very well, mostly because it's obvious to them that the work is in scope.

Actually, it's because this is how our intuition works. Our Ne often tells us that a certain area, that doesn't seem to be relevant, needs exploring. We only find out later why. There almost always turns out to be a very good reason why we needed it. Often, it's because something is going to happen, that no-one thought would ever happen, and that information saves the day. Like a kind of presience. Don't even ask me to explain it. It's some kind of emergent phenomena. It's not always right. But it's right so often, and turns out to be so needed, that it's not even worth considering if it's going down a bad alley. Usually, the older we have gotten, the more that we have experienced this, and the more that we have learned to trust Ne.

It's much like how INTJs often say they don't know where Ni comes from, but they trust it anyway.

I would say that now that I am more familiar with cost-benefits-ratios, if I have a "known" method, and time is a factor, then I will just do the known method. But I'll make time for my Ne. I know that if I don't, everyone will pay heavily.

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For this reason, I sometimes think "Agile" methodology was developed to help INTPs (and INTJs) interface with management: it provides a structured feedback loop so that management can more quickly see when the team is going off on a tangent, and evaluate whether that tangent is worthwhile.

At first, I looked at it on Wikipedia, and snorted. Of the 4 items on the manifesto, I thought 3 were wrong. But then I started reading the "Characteristics" section. I recognised that I had actually requested a lot of this from my bosses. Pushed them into a lot of it, because it worked for me, and the usual stuff didn't.

So I think that INTPs probably developed Agile methodology, to enable others be able to work with them.

Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Depends on the boss and the methods of management. If the boss needs a status update email CC'd to a bunch of people, no problem. If the boss needs to get in my face in order to have his oh-so-valuable "face time", and that happens to be right in the middle of doing what I'm doing, then I have a problem. I tend to regard the latter as a form of micromanagement. When I start new in an organization, I immediately start working on developing a level of trust where the boss doesn't feel like he has to keep tabs on me at all times. In most cases, it's a habit developed due to having to deal with employees who tend not to be productive unless you continually remind them of the their task priorities. Once they're aware that they can ignore me and I'll get the job done, they sigh with relief and leave me alone - and even occasionally cheer when they see the work getting done as they expected it to be. Should the micromanagement continue anyway, then it's time to look for a new job.

I had an idea on this. I found the following really works with most bosses:

1) Write a nightly summary report, some time in the day, when it's convenient for you. At the end of the day, update it to current, and then email it to your boss. If he doesn't need the report, or not that often, send him one every night anyway.

2) Put at the bottom "If you want a breakdown, send me an email of which parts you want to be broken down." Then if he wants a breakdown, even if he approaches you for one, tell him to put it in an email, and write which parts he wanted. When he emails you, write the breakdown, at your leisure, and then email him back.

3) He'll forward the reports and the breakdowns to his bosses, exactly as is. A lot of the time, it was his bosses, that asked for the breakdown. So remember that it has to look presentable to everyone up the chain of command.

4) If he says that the breakdown or the report is urgent, ask him for a specific time and date for a deadline.

Everyone in the chain of command will feel in control, and that everything is being handled, and that they don't need to worry about you making them look bad, which is their #1 worry. They'll then give you whatever you want, because you make them look GOOD.

Learned this from experience.

Like some feedback. Tell me what you and shytiger think.

	Originally Posted by shytiger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is forced upon us in many cases because when you go to teach a course, unless it's some elective seminar or something or you're a heavyweight in your department, most profs/teachers are handed a curriculum or book and told to teach certain things.

This was how maths lectures were taught. They were prepared pieces of logic, properly numbered and structured. Worked really well. If I had a problem, I'd just go to the teacher after class.

	Originally Posted by shytiger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If we took the time to have class discussions, many things wouldn't get covered in class and the students would do badly on the test because most of them never study anything not covered in lecture. It's a bad cycle. In the humanities where discussion is the norm they don't seem to lament about what doesn't get covered.

My high school maths teacher, would first teach the material, using examples. Then he'd ask us if we had any questions. Then he would keep explaining it, until EVERYONE got it. Then we'd get 30 examples for homework, when every other class got 10 at the most. Then when we got it back, he would go over any questions that even one of us got wrong, and he'd show us how to do it, no matter how many times it took. I remember that we once spent 3 days on one homework question, because one of us didn't understand it, even though everyone else in the class did, and we were just sitting there. In the first few months, we were going way slower than anyone else. By the time we finished the material for O-Levels, we were 6 months ahead of everyone else. Then he set us old exam papers. His policy was that if we prepared for known questions, and the exam changed, then we'd be screwed. So he gave us every possible question. He set us 20 exams for Maths O-Level, and 20 exams for Maths A/O-Level, going back 10 years. By the time we walked in that exam, we knew that whatever they threw at us, we'd already done it, or something like it.

Every one of us got an A in Maths, and an A in A/O Maths.

He did the same for A-Levels, with the same results, except for one classmate, who stopped doing the previous exams halfway through, and he still got an A and a C.

I later on heard that he was teaching maths privately, and guaranteed his students an A. Personally, I'd say that if they did what he said, then it was in the bag.

	Originally Posted by shytiger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I will admit though that my natural teaching style is very bullet-pointed and most of the students love it.

Organised notes makes it easy to find what you need, and that makes the mind be the same.

	Originally Posted by shytiger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've found INTPs to be just as productive (and unproductive) as any other type, but, when confronted with something very boring and predictable, they will tend to give up on it.

Yeah. I seem to be really good at the stuff most people find really hard, and vice versa. So I try to persuade my bosses to give the stuff I find boring to other people. They'll do it 10 times as quick as me, and that leaves me free to do all the hard stuff.

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In retrospect, I used to have an INTP employee who followed me from firm to firm. He used to drive some employers crazy since he'd think everything out to the most minute detail prior to proceeding. But when he finally took action, the results were bullet proof.

I was asked to work for several people, precisely because they wanted something bullet-proof, or because they knew that I could do the stuff that most people find really hard, very quickly.

[jndiii]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Both of these are Ti things, as well as Te things.

Very possibly, or perhaps Ne and Te things. Different styles of "talking things out".

Actually, it's because this is how our intuition works. Our Ne often tells us that a certain area, that doesn't seem to be relevant, needs exploring. We only find out later why. There almost always turns out to be a very good reason why we needed it. Often, it's because something is going to happen, that no-one thought would ever happen, and that information saves the day. Like a kind of presience. Don't even ask me to explain it. It's some kind of emergent phenomena. It's not always right. But it's right so often, and turns out to be so needed, that it's not even worth considering if it's going down a bad alley. Usually, the older we have gotten, the more that we have experienced this, and the more that we have learned to trust Ne. It's much like how INTJs often say they don't know where Ni comes from, but they trust it anyway.

Yeah, I suspect that most of the posts deriding INTJs and those deriding INTPs for whatever perceived weaknesses are dealing with the not-quite-so-competent examples of the type. If an INTP ends up predicting 20 flaws, only one of which is actually likely and critical (and makes no reasonable distinction about likelihood), he gets regarded as the boy who cried wolf. It doesn't matter that he was right about one very critical thing, if 95% of his predictions would simply cost a lot more money and not matter. Similarly, an INTJ who is stubborn about something he believes is right ends up being wrong as often as not, his opinion isn't going to be well-regarded later on.

The trick for both is figuring out which things really matter.

	I would say that now that I am more familiar with cost-benefits-ratios, if I have a "known" method, and time is a factor, then I will just do the known method. But I'll make time for my Ne. I know that if I don't, everyone will pay heavily.

I do the same thing. Even Ni needs time.

At first, I looked at it on Wikipedia, and snorted. Of the 4 items on the manifesto, I thought 3 were wrong. But then I started reading the "Characteristics" section. I recognised that I had actually requested a lot of this from my bosses. Pushed them into a lot of it, because it worked for me, and the usual stuff didn't. So I think that INTPs probably developed Agile methodology, to enable others be able to work with them.

Ha!
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I had an idea on this. I found the following really works with most bosses: 1) Write a nightly summary report, some time in the day, when it's convenient for you. At the end of the day, update it to current, and then email it to your boss. If he doesn't need the report, or not that often, send him one every night anyway. 2) Put at the bottom "If you want a breakdown, send me an email of which parts you want to be broken down." Then if he wants a breakdown, even if he approaches you for one, tell him to put it in an email, and write which parts he wanted. When he emails you, write the breakdown, at your leisure, and then email him back. 3) He'll forward the reports and the breakdowns to his bosses, exactly as is. A lot of the time, it was his bosses, that asked for the breakdown. So remember that it has to look presentable to everyone up the chain of command. 4) If he says that the breakdown or the report is urgent, ask him for a specific time and date for a deadline. Everyone in the chain of command will feel in control, and that everything is being handled, and that they don't need to worry about you making them look bad, which is their #1 worry. They'll then give you whatever you want, because you make them look GOOD. Learned this from experience. Like some feedback. Tell me what you and shytiger think.

I always adapt to the boss's style. He's my primary "user", if you will. In the process of doing so, I set boundaries that describe how I work well, e.g., I can handle several moderate tasks well as a matter of course, but if there's several really hard things that need to be out as fast as possible, prioritize and let me do them one at a time.

	Yeah. I seem to be really good at the stuff most people find really hard, and vice versa. So I try to persuade my bosses to give the stuff I find boring to other people. They'll do it 10 times as quick as me, and that leaves me free to do all the hard stuff.

Me, too. Again, I think this is largely aptitude and not typology.

	I was asked to work for several people, precisely because they wanted something bullet-proof, or because they knew that I could do the stuff that most people find really hard, very quickly.

I don't do bullet-proofing the same way, but if something had to be right the first time (e.g., software that manages money), it was put on my plate. This is just a high degree of technical aptitude, as I've repeated several times so far, not typological.

[scorpiomover]

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Very possibly, or perhaps Ne and Te things. Different styles of "talking things out".

For Ti, it's about being able to work out the potential problems that might come up later on.

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah, I suspect that most of the posts deriding INTJs and those deriding INTPs for whatever perceived weaknesses are dealing with the not-quite-so-competent examples of the type. If an INTP ends up predicting 20 flaws, only one of which is actually likely and critical (and makes no reasonable distinction about likelihood), he gets regarded as the boy who cried wolf.

If even 1 in 20 is critical, then if they decide not to listen again, then the next time, 1 in 20 will be critical, and they won't listen, and the project will go belly-up. That only has to happen 3 times, and almost everyone will decide that his 5% success rate is critical to the success of the project, and they'll listen to him every time. "Because it's worth it".

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It doesn't matter that he was right about one very critical thing, if 95% of his predictions would simply cost a lot more money and not matter.

If the total cost of listening to his criticisms, cost a lot more money than having the entire project go belly-up, then, yes, they won't listen to him again. That's not what normally happens with a programmer, because the ability to criticise comes from the same brain that was writing code. If he is that mistaken about his criticisms, he is that mistaken about his code, and his code will always be of really poor quality. Then he'd probably end up getting the sack, no matter what he said or did.

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Similarly, an INTJ who is stubborn about something he believes is right ends up being wrong as often as not, his opinion isn't going to be well-regarded later on.

Ni-ideas are really useful, when they remain just that, ideas, and others are given the chance to analyse them and decide when and where they would be useful.

When Ni-doms allow me to do that, I can test their theories to my satisfaction, and can show them when it won't work at all, not for me or them, and where I can see that it will work in situations they haven't considered, as well as the ones they have thought of.

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The trick for both is figuring out which things really matter.

Experience. Or, when MBTI starts being used to help people know how to use cognitive functions in a productive way, that is supported by the experience of many of their type.

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ha! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


What do you mean?

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I always adapt to the boss's style. He's my primary "user", if you will. In the process of doing so, I set boundaries that describe how I work well, e.g., I can handle several moderate tasks well as a matter of course, but if there's several really hard things that need to be out as fast as possible, prioritize and let me do them one at a time.

I used to do that. Then I realised that a lot of the time, I understand more than my boss. So then I started treating my bosses like I REALLY treat a user.

I ask him what his REAL problems are, and what his reasoning for his solutions are. Then I let my Ti debug that, and I let my Ne come up with a solution. Half the time, his solution is quicker to implement, and he understands it, and so it will be easier for him to maintain. The other half, he's missed something really important, and then I inform him. Then when he agrees, I offer my Ne. Sometimes he comes up with a solution, and sometimes he decides to go with mine. If he doesn't agree, or his solution is likely to cause a lot of problems, I warn him, and then say that what happens is on his head. A few times of that, and he usually isn't stubborn again, without good reason. If he is, then he's usually micro-managing me, and doing all sorts of things, that mean it is time to look for another job.

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Me, too. Again, I think this is largely aptitude and not typology. I don't do bullet-proofing the same way, but if something had to be right the first time (e.g., software that manages money), it was put on my plate. This is just a high degree of technical aptitude, as I've repeated several times so far, not typological.

You've switched to agreeing with me too much. You seem to be either saying that you do the same, or you are putting differences down to individual skill and talent, and nothing to do with typology.

I like the idea of treating INTJs as having different techniques that I could learn and also use.

However, part of the idea of MBTI and Jungian typology, is that we each have DIFFERENT learning styles, that we each need to adapt to, to make the most of ourselves, and to make the most out of others, and to communicate. Here, it helps to say things like "I don't like eating much meat, and love veggies. You love eating meat. Let's compromise on a meal of meat AND veggies. I'll have more veggies than meat, and you can have more meat than veggies."

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was asked to work for several people, precisely because they wanted something bullet-proof, or because they knew that I could do the stuff that most people find really hard, very quickly.

Oh sure. This ensures a good fit, as long as there aren't any seriously short-term deadlines and a reasonable budget. Being thorough requires time where the cost/benefit calculation needs to lean black for benefit.

As far as the bolded of 'very quickly', whatever sector you work within, must be one that you know extremely well hence have immediate grasp of necessary information to create quick solutions. It's not been my experience that many INTPs are quick with solutions unless they're ones of no import, like social interactions or personal decisions that don't impact on anyone beyond themselves.

[jndiii]

	Originally Posted by scorpiomover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I like the idea of treating INTJs as having different techniques that I could learn and also use.

Some, you're already using.

However, part of the idea of MBTI and Jungian typology, is that we each have DIFFERENT learning styles, that we each need to adapt to, to make the most of ourselves, and to make the most out of others, and to communicate. Here, it helps to say things like "I don't like eating much meat, and love veggies. You love eating meat. Let's compromise on a meal of meat AND veggies. I'll have more veggies than meat, and you can have more meat than veggies."

You aren't really demonstrating cognitive techniques, just ways of dealing with typical INTx problems. The INT(J/P) differences kick in at a much subtler level, e.g., the INTP detailed understanding of facts vs the INTJ deep understanding of flow.

E.g., here:

	If even 1 in 20 is critical, then if they decide not to listen again, then the next time, 1 in 20 will be critical, and they won't listen, and the project will go belly-up. That only has to happen 3 times, and almost everyone will decide that his 5% success rate is critical to the success of the project, and they'll listen to him every time. "Because it's worth it".

The problem isn't listening to 20 ideas and then keeping them in play. It's listening to 20 ideas plus the insistence that each-and-every-one-has-to-be-addressed-no-matter-the-cost-and-I'll-say-I-told-you-so-when-that-20th-idea-proves-true. You know how to do cost-benefit analysis. Not all INTPs do. It's a matter of degree: the mature ones weigh them much better than the immature ones. From what you've told me, you're pretty experienced all around.

It's not that INTJs do this better, but that we only state 1-3 ideas, the ones that have endured our own internal system of doubts. INTJs might seem to do this better only because the 1-3 ideas don't tax everyone else's endurance to process.

Oh, and one other point: the differences in types of most any typology appears most readily with respect to the faults and flaws. Both INTPs and INTJs are remarkably good technical experts. When they're right, they both seem to operate the same way. When they're wrong, they're wrong in very different ways.

[Daniel86]

	Originally Posted by Fujimoto To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Simple writing is for simple people. If one doesn't have the attention span to read a well-developed, fully clarified sentence, that's not the fault of the writer.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

[Grave]

For a while now I thought of myself as an INTJ. Until I was told by friend that I over-think everything which made me start to reflect on why, as he saw it, I seemed to think excessively on small problems without reaching a conclusion and naturally I came back to an MBTI conclusion. I would often speculate that my friend is an INTJ, since he fit the bill very stereotypically , but I had not seen a connection between my thought process and his. Since he refuses to question his own beliefs, which I believe he realized using his Ni function, and when I do bring these questions into play he will refuse to consider them because he says that these beliefs are simply "common sense" or a common understanding.

[jndiii]

Originally Posted by Grave To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

For a while now I thought of myself as an INTJ. Until I was told by friend that I over-think everything which made me start to reflect on why, as he saw it, I seemed to think excessively on small problems without reaching a conclusion and naturally I came back to an MBTI conclusion. I would often speculate that my friend is an INTJ, since he fit the bill very stereotypically , but I had not seen a connection between my thought process and his. Since he refuses to question his own beliefs, which I believe he realized using his Ni function, and when I do bring these questions into play he will refuse to consider them because he says that these beliefs are simply "common sense" or a common understanding.

That's likely an accurate self-assessment.

While I don't have specifics about your friend, assuming he is INTJ, it is somewhat incorrect to say that he refuses to question his own beliefs. A more accurate assessment might be, your questions are not asked in the right way to change his beliefs, just as his telling you that thus-and-such is "obviously" true doesn't convince you of much of anything.

The two main differences between INTP and INTJ are the Ti vs Ni (different leading functions), and the Ne/Si vs Ni/Se (different perceiving functions). A lead judging function has a quite different view of the world than a lead perceiving function, which is even more readily apparent in Nardi's EEG work (google it or search this subforum for ongoing discussions). The Ne vs Ni also implies remarkably different worldviews, where Ne relates ideas together cross-contextually, while Ni refines ideas within a particular context. One possible Ne vs Ni analogy is that Ne (with Si) is trying to create a reference manual that covers every possibility, while Ni is trying to create a deep and meaningful story/explanation/understanding that conveys the essential idea (regarded as essential by Ni, of course). The Ni story is necessarily within a single context, otherwise its clarity is lost.

In short, you're both looking at things in such essentially different ways that the typical items that would persuade him to change his mind would never persuade you, and the typical things that would persuade you would never persuade him. Thus you each appear stubborn to the other, even as you appear open-minded to yourselves.

It's certainly not an insurmountable problem, as discussion in this and other threads demonstrate. Once you realize that you're coming from very different directions, analytically speaking, it becomes much easier for each to appreciate the contributions of the other, rather than resent the mutual "stubbornness." E.g., the INTP can identify several possibilities (across contexts) more easily than the INTJ, while the INTJ can take any particular possibility (which reduces things to a singular context) and see the details of how it will play out much more thoroughly than the INTP, assuming the particular examples of each type have a comparable aptitude concerning the topic at hand.