[Zephyranthes]

I'd define misogyny here as only thinking your viewpoint matters or what a guy wants from a woman, not caring if she doesn't want to sleep with a man but instead enjoys their friendship. Not hatred per se, just a narrow viewpoint of the situation, imo.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think he just didn't explain his original post well because he knew the context in his own head and all he needed was a couple of lines to express it (to himself)

Yeah, I probably did a crappy job of explaining my specific mindset about this and what I was referring to. A lot of people seem to be inferring major value judgments that I don't hold from the way the question is phrased.

[vampyroteuthis]

Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Regarding #1, in most of the situations I've seen this has been the case, if not at the beginning, then eventually. Regarding #2, I didn't say they were stupid. I just said they didn't understand it. It's easier for men to understand things about other men than it is for women, just as women understand women easier than men understand women. Or do you disagree with that too? Regarding #3, I wasn't looking for who to blame, I'm wondering what the causes are. #4, yeah, I do believe that. Disagree if you want. #5, it's not impossible. Just rare, at least from what I've seen.

1. Don't extrapolate from your social circle to all humans.
2. Yes, I disagree. Some people somewhat understand some other people + people understand certain gendered codes they're brought up with if they're brought up with them.
3. Why not ask why heterosexual men hang out with women who don't want to sleep with them?
4. How do you know?
5. Don't extrapolate from your social circle to all humans.

[Zsych]

I don't think that's what he was implying.

He's talking about women who only seem to make male friends, in ways that seem to imply to the men that there may be sexual interest, and yet don't carry through - and additionally don't seem to understand why those male friends are leaving them.

The base question then being - what is the actual reasoning behind these women's behavior? What result is this kind of behavioral strategy optimized for?

[AnnaMolly]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah, I probably did a crappy job of explaining my specific mindset about this and what I was referring to. A lot of people seem to be inferring major value judgments that I don't hold from the way the question is phrased.

Dude, it's not that we're all just misunderstanding your original post. A lot of the other quotes of yours in this thread are far more upsetting. And yeah, I'm making value judgements on them as much as I want.

The mere fact that you stated you'd like to sleep with most of the women you meet, makes me judge you. J-j-j-j-judge.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't think that's what he was implying. He's talking about women who only seem to make male friends, in ways that seem to imply to the men that there may be sexual interest, and yet don't carry through - and additionally don't seem to understand why those male friends are leaving them.

Well, it's a good thing you're here to explain to the women.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, it's a good thing you're here to explain to the women.

There are lots of complaints about misogyny and what not, and his elaboration doesn't seem to be pointing towards it, despite this thread having gotten emotional.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There are lots of complaints about misogyny and what not, and his elaboration doesn't seem to be pointing towards it, despite this thread having gotten emotional.

Do you usually dismiss discussions of sexism with handwaving about people getting emotional in this avuncular manner?

[UltraIncredible]

Originally Posted by superflax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't think you get the point of misogyny to be completely honest, so I'm going to review everything you've said so far: 1) You don't see the point of women making male friends if they just keep having to make new ones as the men get tired of them after a while. <- The woman's intentions have not been taken into account. 2) You called this "self-defeating" <- Again, the woman's intentions have not been taken into account 3) You accused me of baggage because I don't agree with you and called you out on it <- Maybe you are just wrong? Maybe it's you that is too ignorant to see the error in your ways, maybe it's not me with baggage. 4) You said we are on the same side, yet you don't know why women make friends because you believe it is self-defeating <- Still waiting for the woman's intention to be taken into account. 5) I am talking about misogyny, which is the hatred of all women. But for some reason you think I am taking personal offence to your ignorance <- Have you stopped to consider maybe you're just wrong?

1 and 2 and 4) The woman's intentions are what I'm trying to figure out and what I'm asking about and what the whole point of the thread was. How could I take them into account if I don't know what they are?

3) If you recall, you were the first to accuse me of having issues that you hoped I dealt with. And you're free to disagree with me, it's just that you got disproportionately upset (huge caps, name-calling, etc.), which is not particularly effective for arguing your case.

5) You did take offense. That was pretty clear.

[AnnaMolly]

Oh, and just one neat example for misogyny or at least a very warped sense of perception of yourself and others:

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've worked with a few girls like this, who have a ton of male friends but very few female friends (either because they're jealous of all that male attention she gets or because she can't relate to other women because she's really screwed up).

You accuse women who happen to have few friends of the same sex of being "really screwed up", but then admit to having no male friends yourself, and no female platonic friends either.
So if they're "screwed up", you're "screwed up"².

[superflax]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There are lots of complaints about misogyny and what not, and his elaboration doesn't seem to be pointing towards it, despite this thread having gotten emotional.

Sorry I get offended when a man questions my right to make friends for whatever reason I damn well please.

If he wants to understand he should ask not criticise.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by AnnaMolly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh, and just one neat example for misogyny or at least a very warped sense of perception of yourself and others: You accuse women who happen to have few friends of the same sex of being "really screwed up", but then admit to having no male friends yourself, and no female platonic friends either. So if they're "screwed up", you're "screwed up"².

Well I have no disagreement with you there.

---------- Post added 06-16-2012 at 05:39 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by superflax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sorry I get offended when a man questions my right to make friends for whatever reason I damn well please. If he wants to understand he should ask not criticise.

So if I was a woman and asked the exact same question you would be less offended? Oh and I didn't question anyone's right to do anything, I don't know where you got that from.

[superflax]

Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1 and 2 and 4) The woman's intentions are what I'm trying to figure out and what I'm asking about and what the whole point of the thread was. How could I take them into account if I don't know what they are? 3) If you recall, you were the first to accuse me of having issues that you hoped I dealt with. And you're free to disagree with me, it's just that you got disproportionately upset (huge caps, name-calling, etc.), which is not particularly effective for arguing your case. 5) You did take offense. That was pretty clear.

She doesn't need to justify herself to you. Ever. That's everyone's response, if she wants to make friends and not sleep with guys even if they want that, she doesn't have to. There doesn't need to be a reason for your benefit.

You have been quoted several times as having issues with women making friends with men, the whole point of this thread really.

I took offense to your ridiculous ask, not that you think I have some sort of baggage.

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So if I was a woman and asked the exact same question you would be less offended? Oh and I didn't question anyone's right to do anything, I don't know where you got that from.

Your gender doesn't matter. A woman can also have internalised misogyny. So I'm not really sure what your point is.

You're really not getting my point.

[UltraIncredible]

Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1. Don't extrapolate from your social circle to all humans. 2. Yes, I disagree. Some people somewhat understand some other people + people understand certain gendered codes they're brought up with if they're brought up with them. 3. Why not ask why heterosexual men hang out with women who don't want to sleep with them? 4. How do you know? 5. Don't extrapolate from your social circle to all humans.

Yes I'm basing it on my limited experience and anecdotal evidence, I know. I wouldn't use that for a research paper on it, but a lot of conclusions are made informally and based on one's everyday life.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you usually dismiss discussions of sexism with handwaving about people getting emotional in this avuncular manner?

Emotions cloud intelligent discussion. Objections to sexism typically are emotional and unuseful in a debate environment anyway - since they are too vague and don't actually address the underlying thought processes that may be resulting in that high level generalization that you are using.

	Originally Posted by superflax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sorry I get offended when a man questions my right to make friends for whatever reason I damn well please. If he wants to understand he should ask not criticise.

I don't think he's questioning your right to make friends. He's trying to understand a certain type of behavior, where the results that person seems to be getting seem to be incongruent with that person's expected intentions. So either the person is failing repeatedly at the expected objective, or the person has a different objective.

If certain women aren't making friends with other women, and instead mostly men. In ways that seem to make the guys sexually interested, and result in them leaving when they realize that's not happening. And the girl keeps making more similar relationships that fail. And doesn't understand why her friends are leaving her.

... what is going on? Both romances and friendships shouldn't have a 100% failure rate. Which implies that she's doing something wrong. Unless she's getting what she wants and these aren't all failed relationships and friendships. So what does she have left? A new group of guys that give her attention until they leave her, while she finds more guys to give her attention because the current group is going to leave due to her behavioral patterns?

-

meh. I'm not inclined to look too deeply into this kind of scenario. People come up with all manner of strange adaptations to life and maintaining some semblance of happiness for themselves. There's not necessarily any good logic leading to a particularly beneficial result in there, and people rarely have self reflection enough to realize what's making them unhappy or how they should change to fix it.

[UltraIncredible]

	Originally Posted by AnnaMolly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Dude, it's not that we're all just misunderstanding your original post. A lot of the other quotes of yours in this thread are far more upsetting. And yeah, I'm making value judgements on them as much as I want. The mere fact that you stated you'd like to sleep with most of the women you meet, makes me judge you. J-j-j-j-judge.

That's fine, you can judge me on that if you like. But at least I'm up front about it. And I don't see why that necessarily makes me a bad person? I don't want to have a one night stand with all of them. I'm not going to manipulate any of them so that I GET to sleep with them. Hmmmm.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes I'm basing it on my limited experience and anecdotal evidence, I know. I wouldn't use that for a research paper on it, but a lot of conclusions are made informally and based on one's everyday life.

Scale up, then, or if you really want an answer for a pattern you see, analyze your context. Otherwise this is a pretty useless exercise. The answers don't all lie with a bunch of white kids in Utah.

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Emotions cloud intelligent discussion. Objections to sexism typically are emotional and unuseful in a debate environment anyway - since they are too vague and don't actually address the underlying thought processes that may be resulting in that high level generalization that you are using.

Objections to sexism aren't useful for pointing out the logical fallacies underlying sexism? Do you detect more emotion in this thread than in the others you grace with your presence, or is objecting to sexism itself "emotional"?

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Objections to sexism aren't useful for pointing out the logical fallacies underlying sexism? Do you detect more emotion in this thread than in the others you grace with your presence, or is objecting to sexism itself "emotional"?

In this scenario, it seems like part of his intent was misunderstood because he was perceived as sexist. Even my own first reaction was "Its like you're questioning women's rights to have friends" - the strangeness of that proposition makes it easier for me to think that he may have done a bad job of expressing himself.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In this scenario, it seems like part of his intent was misunderstood because he was perceived as sexist. Even my own first reaction was "Its like you're questioning women's rights to have friends"

What made you reconsider your first reaction other than your empathetic evaluation of his intentions?

[UltraIncredible]

Originally Posted by superflax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

She doesn't need to justify herself to you. Ever. That's everyone's response, if she wants to make friends and not sleep with guys even if they want that, she doesn't have to. There doesn't need to be a reason for your benefit. You have been quoted several times as having issues with women making friends with men, the whole point of this thread really. I took offense to your ridiculous ask, not that you think I have some sort of baggage. Your gender doesn't matter. A woman can also have internalised misogyny. So I'm not really sure what your point is. You're really not getting my point.

It's not about them justifying themselves to me. It's about my curiosity to know something about the world. Hence, why I asked this question on a message board instead of rudely bringing it up in person to someone I know.

How about the part where I said I actually think it's nice and interesting for men and women to be strictly friends?

I agree with you that a woman can have internalized misogyny. But you said, quote, "when a man questions my right to make friends for whatever reason I damn well please." So what does being a man have to do with it? That was my point there.

[Zhen]

cos women enjoy friendship and AREN'T men!!!
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[zeroemission]

the way i see it, the woman has it in her mind that you're her good little worker bee. you ain't worthy of tasting the honey, but you're good for picking heavy objects up without the catty competitiveness between women. she sees you as HER bitch

[superflax]

	Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's fine, you can judge me on that if you like. But at least I'm up front about it. And I don't see why that necessarily makes me a bad person? I don't want to have a one night stand with all of them. I'm not going to manipulate any of them so that I GET to sleep with them. Hmmmm.

You have no right to question the validity of anyone else's friendships just because you don't understand them. Least of all, call them self-defeating. Talk less of then assuming these women have problems because their friendships are in your view short.

No one is saying you want these women for yourself, everyone is annoyed that you are hinting that you are entitled to some sort of explanation in order for these friendships to be valid in your eyes.

Everything in those 2 paragraphs has been about you, that's what's annoying. It's not all about you ffs.

Originally Posted by UltraIncredible To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's not about them justifying themselves to me. It's about my curiosity to know something about the world. Hence, why I asked this question on a message board instead of rudely bringing it up in person to someone I know. How about the part where I said I actually think it's nice and interesting for men and women to be strictly friends? I agree with you that a woman can have internalized misogyny. But you said, quote, "when a man questions my right to make friends for whatever reason I damn well please." So what does being a man have to do with it? That was my point there.

So you understand it's rude but do it online where you're anonymous. This just gets better and better tbh.

You don't though, if you did, other people's reasons for forming these friendships wouldn't bother you and you wouldn't need to understand it further than "maybe they just want to be friends".

Being a man has to do with your blatant casual sexism. Duh.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What made you reconsider your first reaction other than your empathetic evaluation of his intentions?

He explained that he wasn't talking with respect to his own life and relationships, and then he described the actual kinds of cases he was trying to figure out when he wrote that one line original post.

The problem with vague statements without context is that they become open to interpretation based on the worldviews of the people reading.

This looks like a typical "That's not what I meant" scenario. Sometimes you don't feel like writing an essay.

[superflax]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	He explained that he wasn't talking with respect to his own life and relationships, and then he described the actual kinds of cases he was trying to figure out when he wrote that one line original post. The problem with vague statements without context is that they become open to interpretation based on the worldviews of the people reading.

Well if he hadn't had extrapolated this thread to the entire female population, maybe we wouldn't have thought of it in a world view.

Just sayin' bro.