[hi5yourface]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Guess it's not an NT thing. Would it have been okay if he'd left out the "at this point"?

Good question.....and I suppose it wouldn't be an NT thing, pesky NFs.

"At this point" indicates the strain of the entire conversation up to that point. Stating that he does not care is simply the truth of what he thinks on the subject of Samia's Islamic feelings.

The debate is religious in nature and as such is deeply personal to Samia who identifies as a Muslim. The problem is not difference in opinion it is lack of acknowledgement of the audience you are addressing.

Samia is a woman, a Muslim and an ENFP, she felt attacked......is it true, perhaps not but the feeling seems real to her. Shadizar claims not to care but about what? His stance has been repeated multiple times, so it isn't his thoughts he doesn't care about it's her feelings, yes......however, Samia will care about that and thus the feeling of attack.

There are very few tweaks to the conversation that would not make it appear as a personal attack, no agreement need be reached for that to take place, but in stating he does not care he states the obvious which would be insulting to Samia.

Which is all a grand assumption on my part however as a feeler myself
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[thod]

But we are not playing the 'make each other feel good about themselves' game. We are in the game of enlightenment. Adding facts, drawing conclusions and pointing out flaws in arguments. One way you simply feel better about yourself as person, the other you actually are a better person, because you are now wiser.

[hi5yourface]

Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, Hi5, considering it would earn me infraction points for talking about what behavior Samia is engaging in, I invite you to go through samia's posting history. He/She pretty much writes a majority of her/his posts on muslimanity, and even though he/she claims to be a agnostic/muslim(guffaw), she/he always ends up blaming other people for the crap that happens in islamic cultures. He/she is basically an obtuse religioso with his/her head in the sand, wondering why a group of people who value rationality take issue with her/his ignorant claims and defenses. The person you are defending wrote the post on honor killings in the UK. Just read it and see how party line he/she is and how many time she passes the buck. People are mean because she/he is obtuse and continues to yammer on and thus invites slicing up of her/his arguments. So essentially If you don't want an argument, posting in the politics or religious section probably isn't the smartest idea. Essentially. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am not defending her, I am stating the obvious that she feels attacked and I pointed out the direct wording that is used as such.

I care nothing for her religious views or whether or not they can be shredded to confetti and blown in her face.......I have taken the stance of captain obvious in this discussion that Samia, duh, feels attacked and that Shadizar made her feel attacked as a feeler.

Rip an idea to shreds and set it on fire.......also understand your audience and acknowledge whom you speak to when doing it, it's all in the way it's said.....

[Subgenius]

sorry, perhaps defending isn't the best word. Rationalizing the behavior of, that better?
What does being a feeler have to do with anything? Egregious comments get smacked down here. Like a muslim wife who forgot to add baba ganouj to her weary husbands plate.
So,
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person makes posts that wear big red bow for getting shredded->people shred posts=people are big meanies for doing what's natural.
I do understand my audience. I just don't really care for social niceties when dealing with certain groups who talk about a narrow range of subjects. I'm also kind of a dick on here though, so I freely admit I am mean. I don't really see how it changes arguments other than adding words/phrases that essentially mean "Your argument is flawed for this or that reason. I hope you don't ever reproduce because you are so dumb, you think the English Channel is a British TV station." It's not necessary, but hey, it's fun.

[Moxiie]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But we are not playing the 'make each other feel good about themselves' game. We are in the game of enlightenment. Adding facts, drawing conclusions and pointing out flaws in arguments. One way you simply feel better about yourself as person, the other you actually are a better person, because you are now wiser.

^^That I agree with regarding much of the debate on the forum. In the bold however, the choice of wording is well....indicative of much on this forum.....how does one define enlightenment - again, purely subjective use of phrasing. What's enlightening to you (you being the macro you, not thod) may not be enlightening to me and may come off as pedantic and preachy. I see a lot of that on the forum, folks stating their opinion as fact and presenting it as infallible. I rarely see this phrase here: "Well, you know, you have a point there", what you generally see here are the pointing out of flaws in arguments. (and I'm not unaware that is exactly what I've just done. LOL)

I think the point the Hi5 is making here is one that many an NT can learn from - you make your point better and actually have a chance of providing above referenced enlightenment if you're not a dick about it. It's simply a fact that really shouldn't need more explanation.

I do believe that NT's and NF's can learn from one another, we can gently point out some of your missing social graces and you can help us be more discerning in organizing our thoughts.

As to the OP -- ENFPs are notoriously thin skinned. I would say that if you are going to engage in debate here that you must a) develop a thicker skin; and b) utilize that tertiary Te functioning, you need it here.
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[hi5yourface]

Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

sorry, perhaps defending isn't the best word. Rationalizing the behavior of, that better? What does being a feeler have to do with anything? Egregious comments get smacked down here. Like a muslim wife who forgot to add baba ganouj to her weary husbands plate. So, To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. person makes posts that wear big red bow for getting shredded->people shred posts=people are big meanies for doing what's natural. I do understand my audience. I just don't really care for social niceties when dealing with certain groups who talk about a narrow range of subjects. I'm also kind of a dick on here though, so I freely admit I am mean. I don't really see how it changes arguments other than adding words/phrases that essentially mean "Your argument is flawed for this or that reason. I hope you don't ever reproduce because you are so dumb, you think the English Channel is a British TV station." It's not necessary, but hey, it's fun.

This entire thread is the product of a feeler.....there would not be page after page of this if not for the fact that Samia is a feeler. The entire thread is based on the perception that people here are big, scary, meanies......

That is a feeler perception (blown far out of proportion) to the subject at hand. Feel free to swing your bojangles from side to side, I don't care that you're mean.......I also wouldn't care if I had an idea torn to shreds that laid in throbbing pulp at my feet, but what is the end game of the argument.

Teach me something worth knowing in a way that is understandable to me or blow a fart in the wind. Being a feeler shouldn't mean handle with kid gloves but the addition of a few words slanted here or there can make the difference between this idea is trash or you are trash as you so eloquently put it (you know, breeding) har har.....

[Shahira]

I'm not against criticising the religion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But if you do join in a thread that I made stating your own opinion of course I am going to have a "discussion" with you. That's the whole point of it. If you think Islam is a bad religion that's fine by me. That's your opinion. What I do not like is when someone makes comments about Muslims. A group of people which I think I am part of. I consider that a personal attack. I got called a wife beater just because I didn't see eye to eye with someone. That's what I don't like. The name calling. I didn't made the thread just because of me. I made it because I also noticed other people were throwing remarks about others and I think that's a problem. I don't think it should just be left alone. It isn't right. Subgenius, what I don't like is how YOU are assuming that YOU are right. I didn't make any assumptions about me being right. I made the Islamophobia thread to show not ALL Muslims are extremsts. There are decent Muslims out there. I have nothing against people criticising my opinions. With Shadizar what I didn't like was that he also assumed that he was right and what I was thinking was stupid. Is it so hard to show some respect for others. Yes, I am not sure about my religion and its gonna take some time for me to figure out what I do or do not believe in. Why is nearly always nbrought up against me? That also I do consider as an attack. The comments I tjhink Subgenius is making is disrespectful. Not only to Muslims but if he also made comments like that about other religions I would still find it disrespectful. You attack the IDEA not the people or person. You're attacking the idea, I have no problem with but you are also attacking people and that's what I don't like.

[Shadizar]

Originally Posted by hi5yourface To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This entire thread is the product of a feeler.....there would not be page after page of this if not for the fact that Samia is a feeler. The entire thread is based on the perception that people here are big, scary, meanies...... That is a feeler perception (blown far out of proportion) to the subject at hand. Feel free to swing your bojangles from side to side, I don't care that you're mean.......I also wouldn't care if I had an idea torn to shreds that laid in throbbing pulp at my feet, but what is the end game of the argument. Teach me something worth knowing in a way that is understandable to me or blow a fart in the wind. Being a feeler shouldn't mean handle with kid gloves but the addition of a few words slanted here or there can make the difference between this idea is trash or you are trash as you so eloquently put it (you know, breeding) har har.....

You done talking yourself in a circle?

---------- Post added 06-07-2012 at 09:08 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Samia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm not against criticising the religion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But if you do join in a thread that I made stating your own opinion of course I am going to have a "discussion" with you. That's the whole point of it. If you think Islam is a bad religion that's fine by me. That's your opinion. What I do not like is when someone makes comments about Muslims. A group of people which I think I am part of. I consider that a personal attack. I got called a wife beater just because I didn't see eye to eye with someone. That's what I don't like. The name calling. I didn't made the thread just because of me. I made it because I also noticed other people were throwing remarks about others and I think that's a problem. I don't think it should just be left alone. It isn't right. Subgenius, what I don't like is how YOU are assuming that YOU are right. I didn't make any assumptions about me being right. I made the Islamophobia thread to show not ALL Muslims are extremsts. There are decent Muslims out there. I have nothing against people criticising my opinions. With Shadizar what I didn't like was that he also assumed that he was right and what I was thinking was stupid. Is it so hard to show some respect for others. Yes, I am not sure about my religion and its gonna take some time for me to figure out what I do or do not believe in. Why is nearly always nbrought up against me? That also I do consider as an attack. The comments I tjhink Subgenius is making is disrespectful. Not only to Muslims but if he also made comments like that about other religions I would still find it disrespectful. You attack the IDEA not the people or person. You're attacking the idea, I have no problem with but you are also attacking people and that's what I don't like.

You done talking yourself in a circle?

[hi5yourface]

	Originally Posted by Shadizar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You done talking yourself in a circle?

Sure......my fart was expelled.

[stasis]

	Originally Posted by Moxiie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	how does one define enlightenment - again, purely subjective use of phrasing. What's enlightening to you (you being the macro you, not thod) may not be enlightening to me and may come off as pedantic and preachy.)

thod is referring to debate as a dialectic process. You take up a position, someone else takes up an opposing position, and the two engage one another rhetorically. Over the course of this exercise the least resilient arguments for and against are wrecked, knowledge of each position deepens, better arguments may emerge, and in this way any party open to the experience can gain valuable understanding.

It isn't required that anyone even believe the positions taken up for the sake of argument.

We might observe that holding stuff like "nobody is right or wrong" at the level of norm or policy is anti-intellectual over debate, in the sense that it completely precludes this kind of learning by defanging the exchange. And that merely in addition to the general falsehood and valuelessness conveyed by such statements.

I'm not convinced this has much to do with being "a feeler". But I could be wrong.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by stasis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

thod is referring to debate as a dialectic process. You take up a position, someone else takes up an opposing position, and the two engage one another rhetorically. Over the course of this exercise the least resilient arguments for and against are wrecked, knowledge of each position deepens, better arguments may emerge, and in this way any party open to the experience can gain valuable understanding.

Marvelous, brave example thereof:
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[Subgenius]

	Originally Posted by hi5yourface To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sure......my fart was expelled.

Well, everyone likes their own scent. It's just dealing with other farts that is horrible.

[ppu6502]

This entire thread is the collective-equivalent of so many ENFP-INTJ relationship bed time arguments.

[Distance]

The love/hate, we can't relate death spiral of INT/NFP relationships. All the idealism gone down the pooter. Massive cynicism ensues.

[hi5yourface]

	Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, everyone likes their own scent. It's just dealing with other farts that is horrible.

E
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nah, don't like mine either but it feels so much better once they're out.....

[Amphorian]

@Samia: We're allowed to attack groups, but not individuals here. The only thing that is banned is racism and antisemitic material, but that is because it got too rampant.

Originally Posted by To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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[Subgenius]

	Originally Posted by hi5yourface To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	E To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. nah, don't like mine either but it feels so much better once they're out.....

Sure...Sure...

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[Zsych]

To an ENFP, a straight problem solving approach might seem mean because it automatically ignores feelings.

[Shadizar]

It's not just Islamic topics, Monte made a similar -
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- argument against the R&M frequenters. And it also went no where.

[Moxiie]

	Originally Posted by ppu6502 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This entire thread is the collective-equivalent of so many ENFP-INTJ relationship bed time arguments.

Ha!! Not sure which ENFP's you're sleepin' with but arguing is the LAST thing I'm doin' with an INTJ at bed time, that's the time when we endeavor to put the full application of the INTJ Ni-Te-Fi and Se to it's most creative use. You crazy cats are at your best there.
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---------- Post added 06-07-2012 at 01:03 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To an ENFP, a straight problem solving approach might seem mean because it automatically ignores feelings.

Correction: to some ENFP's (or NF's in general) - not all approach problem solving as a purely emotional endeavor. Personally I prefer problem solving to be rational first and foremost but also humanitarian when possible. This get hellaciously stronger as we get older and bring Te into play.

[hi5yourface]

	Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Sure...Sure...

No, seriously, I meant what I said.....and that includes the part about not in defense of and not caring if an idea I have is ripped apart in debate also. I usually am very quiet about implementation of changes debate brings though, quick but private.

P.S. Nice touch by the way.......

[Zodd]

	Originally Posted by Moxiie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You crazy cats are at your best there. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My grandmother had a crazy cat and she was a nice animal!


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[ppu6502]

	Originally Posted by Moxiie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ha!! Not sure which ENFP's you're sleepin' with but arguing is the LAST thing I'm doin' with an INTJ at bed time

My feelings hurt from this cold and insensitive comment!
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You should take into consideration my sensitive feelings.


Holy shit is this how feelings work? It's like debating without having to make sense! Gonna have to use this more often..
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[Moxiie]

Originally Posted by ppu6502 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My feelings hurt from this cold and insensitive comment! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. You should take into consideration my sensitive feelings. Holy shit is this how feelings work? It's like debating without having to make sense! Gonna have to use this more often.. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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bwahahahaha!!

My original assertion, dear cold unfeeling INTJ, was simply a purely rational observation. If you are arguing with an ENFP before bed time, you are sleeping with a mistyped person.

See? to the OP, there are times when our adorable INTJ's aren't mean afterall!

[Shahira]

Originally Posted by stasis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

thod is referring to debate as a dialectic process. You take up a position, someone else takes up an opposing position, and the two engage one another rhetorically. Over the course of this exercise the least resilient arguments for and against are wrecked, knowledge of each position deepens, better arguments may emerge, and in this way any party open to the experience can gain valuable understanding. It isn't required that anyone even believe the positions taken up for the sake of argument. We might observe that holding stuff like "nobody is right or wrong" at the level of norm or policy is anti-intellectual over debate, in the sense that it completely precludes this kind of learning by defanging the exchange. And that merely in addition to the general falsehood and valuelessness conveyed by such statements. I'm not convinced this has much to do with being "a feeler". But I could be wrong.

Now I can see why my point was a bit silly. But I still don't think its stupid.

	Originally Posted by Amphorian To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	@Samia: We're allowed to attack groups, but not individuals here. The only thing that is banned is racism and antisemitic material, but that is because it got too rampant.

Okay. But I do still think its a problem. I still see it as an attack but I do accept that nothing can be done about it. Thank you.

	Originally Posted by Moxiie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	See? to the OP, there are times when our adorable INTJ's aren't mean afterall!

I do
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I don't think INTJs or NTs are mean. I think some people are unnecessarily mean on the forum.

Anyway, thanks to those who helped me see things a bit clearly it means a lot to me
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Shadizar, if you elaborated on why you thought what I said was stupid this whole thing could have been avoided. It may not be correct or make any sense but it is certaintly not stupid.
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