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Immature INTJ vs Mature INTJ None
Old 05-28-2012, 09:30 PM   #1
childofprodigy
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As usual, immaturity is associated with youth and is generally a set of negative traits associated with such youthfulness...

My question is...What sort of negative traits (if any) are uniquely found in immature INTJs and not necessarily found in immature versions of other types....What sort of immaturities (if any) are uniquely INTJ

How would you differentiate an immature INTJ versus an INTJ that has grown up....What sort of traits differ from one to the other?
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:42 PM   #2
jawa
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I'm pretty young and would generally consider myself an immature INTJ (though a mature person compared to almost everyone else).

I think a big one for mature INTJ's is to recognize feelings and needs of others, and actually responding appropriately/how they would like. Immature INTJ's can be so selfish. It doesn't matter if you don't care about someone, they're still a person.

I suppose a mature INTJ would be less critical of people as well. People are people, and really, it's not their fault they are dumb or make stupid mistakes.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:49 PM   #3
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Hmm. I suppose it may be something like this, but I'm not sure I can really say:
  • SENSE OF SELF: An immature INTJ doesn't really know who they are, and perhaps is living to other peoples' expectations of who they should be. On the other hand, a mature INTJ would have a better sense of self and know when others are full of confidence but sorely lacking in competence when they have a say on this issue. For example, hypocrites full of hot air aren't worth listening to for realistic livable and fair standards.
  • INCREASED DEVELOPMENT IN PLANNING: It comes with experience and knowing what sort of risks are acceptable instead of being too overconservative instead of reliably overconservative. And on the other hand, knowing who isn't reliable enough to trust when anything of value is on the line, perhaps if those others have poor character or a warped and selfish sense of responsibility.
  • TRUST AND RELATIONSHIPS: Being able to offer measure a measure of trust to people that grows over time rather than a simple sever/deep trust dichotomy. Think shades of grey and living relationships.
  • SPARE TIME: Doing something productive, healthy and non-repetitive, and perhaps even social seems like a good way to invest inferior Se. Although perhaps a peaceful walk through nature or simple time with friends and family has its place too, rather than spending time connected to a computer.
  • MORAL AND WISDOM INCREASE IN INTEREST: Thinking about issues of character and courage and what is truly of worth in people instead of not thinking about the issues or settling for something merely superficial, like who is the most intelligent and apathetic 'I-have-so-much-potential-but-I-choose-not-to-use-it-unlike-everyone-else-because-I-am-a-unique-self-aware-snowflake' boffin on the interwebs.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:58 PM   #4
jawa
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  Originally Posted by Tactical Panda
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Hmm. I suppose it may be something like this, but I'm not sure I can really say:
  • SENSE OF SELF: An immature INTJ doesn't really know who they are, and perhaps is living to other peoples' expectations of who they should be. On the other hand, a mature INTJ would have a better sense of self and know when others are full of confidence but sorely lacking in competence when they have a say on this issue. For example, hypocrites full of hot air aren't worth listening to for realistic livable and fair standards.
  • INCREASED DEVELOPMENT IN PLANNING: It comes with experience and knowing what sort of risks are acceptable instead of being too overconservative instead of reliably overconservative. And on the other hand, knowing who isn't reliable enough to trust when anything of value is on the line, perhaps if those others have poor character or a warped and selfish sense of responsibility.
  • TRUST AND RELATIONSHIPS: Being able to offer measure a measure of trust to people that grows over time rather than a simple sever/deep trust dichotomy. Think shades of grey and living relationships.
  • SPARE TIME: Doing something productive, healthy and non-repetitive, and perhaps even social seems like a good way to invest inferior Se. Although perhaps a peaceful walk through nature or simple time with friends and family has its place too, rather than spending time connected to a computer.
  • MORAL AND WISDOM INCREASE IN INTEREST: Thinking about issues of character and courage and what is truly of worth in people instead of not thinking about the issues or settling for something merely superficial, like who is the most intelligent and apathetic 'I-have-so-much-potential-but-I-choose-not-to-use-it-unlike-everyone-else-because-I-am-a-unique-self-aware-snowflake' boffin on the interwebs.

I would argue with the first one. Immature INTJ's, or any INTJ's seem very up to disobeying authority. I know I certainly was more likely to not do something simply because someone told me to. I would even go so far to say it's the opposite-- instead of disagreeing with people for its own sake, a mature INTJ would be more open to suggestions and demands after reasoning with their self that it's worthwhile.

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Old 05-28-2012, 10:02 PM   #5
Tactical Panda
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  Originally Posted by jawa
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I would argue with the first one. Immature INTJ's, or any INTJ's seem very up to disobeying authority. I know I certainly was more likely to not do something simply because someone told me to. I would even go so far to say it's the opposite-- instead of disagreeing with people for its own sake, a mature INTJ would be more open to suggestions and demands after reasoning with their self that it's worthwhile.

Then perhaps I am less mature than you in this area. But perhaps not.

I am not keen with reasoning with the perhaps less common treacherous liars.
But I am open to reasoning with about anyone of reasonable character and of exercised mind.

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Old 05-29-2012, 09:34 AM   #6
Magda
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  Originally Posted by jawa
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I would argue with the first one. Immature INTJ's, or any INTJ's seem very up to disobeying authority. I know I certainly was more likely to not do something simply because someone told me to. I would even go so far to say it's the opposite-- instead of disagreeing with people for its own sake, a mature INTJ would be more open to suggestions and demands after reasoning with their self that it's worthwhile.

Yes, when I was younger I recall not doing things I'd been planning to do, simply because my mother nagged me to do them, and I didn't want to demonstrate to her that nagging worked. Being told to do something made me more reluctant to do it. Now, in my 40s, I feel less need to assert my independence in this manner.

I still don't respect people just because I'm told I should, but rather on their own merit, and that was the case when I was younger as well. But I can now act as though I respect them if it's necessary (particularly in a work environment).

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Old 05-29-2012, 10:20 AM   #7
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  Originally Posted by childofprodigy
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As usual, immaturity is associated with youth and is generally a set of negative traits associated with such youthfulness...

My question is...What sort of negative traits (if any) are uniquely found in immature INTJs and not necessarily found in immature versions of other types....What sort of immaturities (if any) are uniquely INTJ

How would you differentiate an immature INTJ versus an INTJ that has grown up....What sort of traits differ from one to the other?

Not sure if this is completely specific to the INTJ, but what I find in the immature INTJ is that they believe that they can rationally solve any problem presented to them, scientific, moral, political, etc., by themselves by simply applying their Ni, Te and some logical problem solving. They don't need anyone else, they don't need to observe history or the experiences of others. Everyone simply needs to comply with the INTJ's logic, and everything would be perfect.

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Old 05-29-2012, 03:04 PM   #8
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most of the questions asked are a bit out of paygrade, but I can relate a few examples of my previous immature behavior to my less immature behavior, as I'm still a work in progress, but have many decades under my belt at this point.

I am substantially less argumentative now, compared to me at a earlier age. Arguing about things that are not mathematical, or hard science with another person versed in hard science, is simply not something I will engage in. period. I used to have those kinds of discussions all the time when younger. I am secure in my principles. I'll state them if appropriate to the conversation. You don't like them - no problem - I really don't care and feel no need to engage in debate. as it is completely unproductive, uninteresting and a waste of my time.

I handle social situations much better, manage and understand my emotions much better, which should place me somewhere really close to the very low end of normal, maybe, on a good day.

I'm still really intense, pretty much about everything - but compared to me at an earlier age, I am darn near laid back.

I had a very quick, intense temper and would hold grudges forever. Now, very little can get my temper to flair, and then, it is very well managed. Holding a grudge - nope - I move on and make sure I manage situations avoid recurrence.

Things that have not changed include: authority still means nothing to me - only competence; independence - could care less about what peers do - I do what I think is best and don't give it another thought. Self doubt - wish this was better, but I still have a large portion of self doubt.

As I aged, I am happier, content with life, calmer, have things in much better perspective (I hope), just as decisive, same love of knowledge, learning, problem solving is far superior, less mystified by many things even when I don't understand them.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:09 PM   #9
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Immature INTJs are totally wrapped up in their personal vision of how the world works, with all of the advantages and disadvantages that grants. The main advantage is that INTJs are generally immune to groupthink, and we generally become very good at figuring out things for ourselves. The main disadvantage is that we're immune to groupthink because we're cantankerous bastards who assume that other people disagree with us because they're either stupid or ignorant of everything we know.

A mature INTJ remains immune to groupthink, trusting one's own methodologies over those of others, BUT we develop ways of incorporating/trusting other sources of knowledge into our own. A mature INTJ also develops a capacity for realizing where one's own cognitive biases lie: it's not perfect, of course, because it wouldn't be a cognitive bias in the first place if it were obvious, but there is a general awareness that certain kinds of "thought paths" lead to unproductive results.

Finally, a mature INTJ learns how to process feelings, rather than dumping them into that pile of concepts we'd rather not deal with. This includes learning to act like a nice person, not merely thinking nice thoughts about other people. One of the key realizations for an INTJ is that we tend to idealize feelings without realizing it: no one, and no thing, can live up to these standards, so we reject feelings as lacking value precisely because our absurdly high standards don't work in the real world. The trick to processing feelings is to realize that they are signals about how things are, not statements about how things ought to be.

As an analogy: your hand is burning because the water is too hot, not because water is evil and should be avoided. You need to stick in your hand and adjust the water's temperature until it feels right, enduring the hot and the cold in the meantime. In human relationships, you get hurt or embarrassed or whatever because any of a number of things are wrong, but not (merely) because other people are evil. You need to stick things out and figure out what needs adjusting to make it right, enduring the dramatic swings of emotion to emotion until you find your balance.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:14 PM   #10
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  Originally Posted by jndiii
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The main disadvantage is that we're immune to groupthink because we're cantankerous bastards who assume that other people disagree with us because they're either stupid or ignorant of everything we know.

Well its not terribly difficult to qualify for admission to the cantankerous bastard club, I think most any introverted type that defaults to an introverted judging function to deal with human interaction is going to have a reasonably strong application, for one reason or another. I've been guilty of as much myself on more than one occasion, and in my own way, probably suffered at least as significant a detriment to the integrity of my perception as a result. To put your assesment another way though, what is unique to immature INTJs is a need to actively define themselves through devaluation of a perceived flaw by projecting it onto their environment. In other words, INTJs raise the standard for themselves so high that sometimes the only way to think of themselves as anything other than worthless, is by wildly over exaggerating the number of people who are further from that standard than they are, the extent of the gap between those people and the standard, and the relative level of external resistance to their own progrogress towards that standard. The more they need to see their peers/environment as sub-standard, the more absolute the standard must be, but the more absolute the standard must be, the more insignificant the distinction between the INTJ and his surroundings by comparison, and so on and so forth ad infinitum. Basically the immature INTJ's world is comprised of things that the INTJ asociates with being normal or average, things that the INTJ associates with himself, and an overwhelming compulsion to prove to himself that never shall the two coincide.

I think its an out of control Fi regurgitating its demands back onto Ni-Te when Ni-Te fails to cope with the situation, kind of a thing. The same way that out of controll Fe will occasionaly hijack an INTP's personality and turn him into a rather clearly insane, yet highly articulate, raving lunatic with a persecution complex... only perhaps a bit less extreme, and with a more pervasively evident impact on every day conscious reasoning, than what you might see from an INTP (the INTP tends to detach from their feelings in a more literal sense, and save up all their obviously externalized crazy for something much more dramatic).

The difference is that mature INTJs know they're doing it, and Fi is well enough developed that their standards, allbeit still perpetually unobtainable, are close enough to reality that the INTJ doesn't need to waste their energy cooking up elaborate global conspiracies of opressive restriction imposed upon them by the insidiously immutable agents of popular mediocrity, in order to face the fact that they'le never quite meet the level of awesome that they expect of them themselves.

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Old 06-03-2012, 11:30 PM   #11
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Immature INTJs think insults are a form of virtue. It's mainly about developing your F.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:32 PM   #12
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  Originally Posted by jawa
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I'm pretty young and would generally consider myself an immature INTJ (though a mature person compared to almost everyone else).

I think a big one for mature INTJ's is to recognize feelings and needs of others, and actually responding appropriately/how they would like. Immature INTJ's can be so selfish. It doesn't matter if you don't care about someone, they're still a person.

I suppose a mature INTJ would be less critical of people as well. People are people, and really, it's not their fault they are dumb or make stupid mistakes.

Yes. This interview with mature INTJ Leonard Nimoy (by--I suspect--an ENFP) may be helpful:


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Old 06-04-2012, 03:58 PM   #13
elakhael
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I perceived a focus on developing F, and I agree is fundamental to accept feelings and ways to deal with them. But I would add a balance between S and N too; sometimes concrete things and reality needs to be closer to us. Some INTJ's develop so much theoretical things, expected to work but receive frustration.
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Old 06-04-2012, 04:07 PM   #14
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  Originally Posted by jawa
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Immature INTJ's, or any INTJ's seem very up to disobeying authority. I know I certainly was more likely to not do something simply because someone told me to. I would even go so far to say it's the opposite-- instead of disagreeing with people for its own sake, a mature INTJ would be more open to suggestions and demands after reasoning with their self that it's worthwhile.

Hell yeah, when I was a kid I totally went out of my way to get people as irate as possible. The flames were awesome!

The trouble was, by the time I got to my twenties, none of the people I grew up with wanted to know me, so important guidance like investing in property, and getting the right qualification, all went out the window.

I don't think INTJ kids (9-19 yrs) are going to make the right choices. I think there will need to be firm and creative guidance from someone who knows their limitations and strengths, and also education for them as well as for the people that love them - just so everyone is in the loop. Perhaps half of the fallout can be prevented or contained, so the young adult still has a support network.

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Old 06-04-2012, 05:12 PM   #15
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Being overly rigid with time and mindset >>> becoming flexible and open

Wasting our systems thinking on stupid stuff (too much computer games, etc) >>> using our unique NiTe combination to actually do something useful with our lives

Everyone are stupid >>> they are not stupid, they're different

This is stupid >>> maybe, but if I understand rather than reject it, it can support my Ni
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:17 AM   #16
Paul Siraisi
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Pretty much a grasp of everything that, as an INTJ, you're not. How to be a bit extraverted, how to be rigorous in data collection and to follow other peoples' rules, how to empathize, how to go with the flow.
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