[Autumnleaf]

Sometimes this topic comes up around here and there seems to be many here in favor of leaving them alone. What do you think? Americans I work with complain about them not learning to speak English and not teaching their children English so their children take up extra teacher time in public schools because the teacher has to teach English to them instead of math or whatever to the class. Then there is their tendency to take low paying jobs which qualifies them for government assistance such as Medicaid and even if they are uninsured they can get 'free' healthcare at the hospitals. This translates to regular Americans having to pay more or the medical places closing for lack of funding. Then there is the economy. Americans are out of work. Employers love hiring illegal immigrants because they are cheaper and they tend to work harder than Americans. Please help fill in the picture where I left blank spots, ie Americans aren't having enough live births to make a tax base to pay for the baby boomers to retire.

How should illegal immigrants be deal with?

[larkin]

You forgot to mention the part where the economy is absolutely dependent on them, because Americans won't take the jobs they have.

You can deport whoever you want, spend whatever on enforcement you want but it won't solve the problem until you deal with the employers.

As for having to "teach them English" - yes, immigrants need to learn English, legal or illegal. We need to find a way to teach them. I'm sorry if that means extra resources being spent by your school district in ways that don't directly benefit every kid. Lots of schools have football programs that don't directly benefit every kid. People get over it.

[Shahira]

I don't think so some might have come to escape persecution, poverty ect. It is also a problem in the UK and some complain about how "all these eastern europeas coming over and taking out jobs" I find that to be disgusting. I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. Unless they resort to crime then I do think they should be deported.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You can deport whoever you want, spend whatever on enforcement you want but it won't solve the problem until you deal with the employers.

The easiest way to deal with this is to fine employers with hefty fines. Once you've removed incentive for the bulk of illegals to attempt entry since they'll likely starve without employment, you can then deport the smaller numbers.

[babsa]

Originally Posted by Samia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't think so some might have come to escape persecution, poverty ect. It is also a problem in the UK and some complain about how "all these eastern europeas coming over and taking out jobs" I find that to be disgusting. I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. Unless they resort to crime then I do think they should be deported.

What part of illegal does not translate to a crime?

---------- Post added 05-27-2012 at 02:26 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The easiest way to deal with this is to fine employers with hefty fines. Once you've removed incentive for the bulk of illegals to attempt entry since they'll likely starve without employment, you can then deport the smaller numbers.

That is one way. It is odd that people talk about how terrible the working man has it, but when the employers are unwilling to create incentive for their jobs, it is automatically a crisis that they can not find employees. Whole Goods opened up near where i lived about 4 years ago and offered (i think it was) $10 per hour starting pay for cashiers and store associates, i saw a HUGE line of people, young people, middle-aged people, old people, trying to get a job there.

[SarcasticVlad]

It depends. Can those immigrants contribute in a significant way to the country (scientists for example)? If so, keep them. If not, deport them.

But if only it were that simple. The entire system is broken.

[Traverser]

Originally Posted by Samia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't think so some might have come to escape persecution, poverty ect. It is also a problem in the UK and some complain about how "all these eastern europeas coming over and taking out jobs" I find that to be disgusting. I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. Unless they resort to crime then I do think they should be deported.

My sentiments exactly. This whole business of something being illegal (prohibited by the state) equating to a crime is nonsensical. A crime, by definition, involves a victim. How is crossing a geographic boundary harming someone, unless it is crossing private property that was homesteaded? It's hardly different from accusing the Apollo astronauts of illegally immigrating to the moon, when no one has ever homesteaded any of its territory before.

Furthermore, Americans like to blame immigrants for taking advantage of welfare, as if being a citizen gives you a right to someone else's property. By and large, it is mostly American citizens who are feeding off the public trough.

Lastly, we ought to be thankful that the dollar goes further in Mexico and Canada than it does here, as it is the primary reason why these workers are working for less and saving the consumer money. It has nothing to do with any racial predispositions toward work. They are human like the rest of us.

[Distance]

Originally Posted by babsa To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That is one way. It is odd that people talk about how terrible the working man has it, but when the employers are unwilling to create incentive for their jobs, it is automatically a crisis that they can not find employees. Whole Goods opened up near where i lived about 4 years ago and offered (i think it was) $10 per hour starting pay for cashiers and store associates, i saw a HUGE line of people, young people, middle-aged people, old people, trying to get a job there.

Part of the incentive has to be the legal residents themselves. If a corporation isn't willing to pay decent wages, refuse to consume their goods.

[babsa]

Originally Posted by Traverser To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My sentiments exactly. This whole business of something being illegal (prohibited by the state) equating to a crime is nonsensical. A crime, by definition, involves a victim. How is crossing a geographic boundary harming someone, unless it is crossing private property that was homesteaded? It's hardly different from accusing the Apollo astronauts of illegally immigrating to the moon, when no one has ever homesteaded any of its territory before.

Here we go:

	Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
	Crime[n]: 1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.

Operating off of the exact definition of the word "crime" it does not have to involve a victim, if it is injurious to the interests of the state and illegal, it is a crime. Illegal immigrants do not ask permission from the state to work under their system, this undermines the established system of immigration where the government is able to choose and potentially fill the demand for whatever workforce deficiency there is. You also get into the aspect of having unregistered people in our society which would have obvious repercussions, not to mention that they have not been initially screened or even given an english competency test.


Furthermore, Americans like to blame immigrants for taking advantage of welfare, as if being a citizen gives you a right to someone else's property. By and large, it is mostly American citizens who are feeding off the public trough.

Lastly, we ought to be thankful that the dollar goes further in Mexico and Canada than it does here, as it is the primary reason why these workers are working for less and saving the consumer money. It has nothing to do with any racial predispositions toward work. They are human like the rest of us.[/QUOTE]

[sunitaishot]

I don't think Americans (or Canadians for that matter) hold a right to be anti-immigration.

Unlike in the Old World the same majority/minority factors don't apply.

[powerplant]

Originally Posted by Samia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't think so some might have come to escape persecution, poverty ect. It is also a problem in the UK and some complain about how "all these eastern europeas coming over and taking out jobs" I find that to be disgusting. I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. Unless they resort to crime then I do think they should be deported.

If they are trying to escape poverty or war then they can apply for asylum it is entirely different. Those who want to work in Britain have to have the skills to do so to immigrate legally. If they do not have these skills to do important jobs such as medical care etc then they may choose to illegally sneak in and take low skilled jobs. Like, taxi driver and cleaner. This may in turn prevent other people from the UK who need these jobs from getting them.



"I don't think it should matter whether they come to a country legally or illegally. If they want to have a better life for themself and for their family no one should stop them. "

This is not sensible in my opinion, suppose 1,000,000 people illegally enter the UK in 2013 under your system they would be allowed to stay which would cause major strain on the services here and further reduce they amount of available jobs. This would cause major friction in the UK which could even cause people to turn to the far-right for answers which will not end well.


Immigration laws exist for a reason as do border controls. The risks posed by uncontrolled immigration can be severe.


I should point out I am not opposed to immigration, (although I have disagreed with your opinion about illegal immigrants here) immigration can help a country but unchecked immigration is not sensible unless you have the resources and large amounts of jobs for these immigrants otherwise this can cause friction as I mentioned earlier on.

[babsa]

	Originally Posted by sunitaishot To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't think Americans (or Canadians for that matter) hold a right to be anti-immigration. Unlike in the Old World the same majority/minority factors don't apply.

Any country has a right to impose whatever laws they want on immigration, i don't understand where this rationale is coming from.

[DrMacKay]

usa is the favorite destination for immigrants, it is the opposite of Europe for example, where extremists are growing because of immigration (they blame immigrants of the economic collapse) but it is a mistake, Americans should not be like that, if you do like Europeans do the "American dream" will lose its sens

[Agent 00]

	Originally Posted by DrMacKay To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	the "American dream" will lose its sens

The American Dream is an American Fallacy any more. I'm fine with immigration as long as taxes are paid and they bear some type of burden with regards to the services they get as citizens do. So I don't think they should be deported, rather sign them up for citizenship.

[Traverser]

	Originally Posted by babsa To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Operating off of the exact definition of the word "crime" it does not have to involve a victim, if it is injurious to the interests of the state and illegal, it is a crime.

babsa, I get it; you don't care if anyone is harmed by someone's actions. You only care if it's prohibited by those who like to wield clubs against those who freely act without their permission. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand that this kind of legal thinking is dangerous. Would you threaten me if I "illegally" (as per your personal decrees) worked without your permission?

Oh yes, that's right. It's suddenly morally acceptable when you have the support of your neighbors through voting against little ol me. Aint gang violence nice?

	Originally Posted by babsa To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Illegal immigrants do not ask permission from the state to work under their system, this undermines the established system of immigration where the government is able to choose and potentially fill the demand for whatever workforce deficiency there is.

The government has no business determining who should work and in what industry. It is Orwelllian to say the least to read posts like these.

	Originally Posted by babsa To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You also get into the aspect of having unregistered people in our society which would have obvious repercussions,

Spit it out. What "repercussions" are there for someone refusing to make his associations and identity known to the government? Getting imprisoned by the government? That's a given.

	Originally Posted by babsa To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	not to mention that they have not been initially screened

Screened for what? Parasites? Criminal thoughts? Americans have those in abundance, metaphorically speaking.

	Originally Posted by babsa To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	or even given an english competency test.

Apart from the fact that many, if not most, Americans write and speak English poorly...dealing with someone who doesn't speak your language is simple. Either learn their language, or don't deal with them at all.

By the way, if you know as many non-English-speaking, yet very rich, customers as I do...you're going to think twice about staying monolingual.

---------- Post added 05-27-2012 at 08:19 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by babsa To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Any country has a right to impose whatever laws they want on immigration, i don't understand where this rationale is coming from.

It's very easy to understand, babsa. If I am not depriving you the freedom to use what is rightfully yours by trade or homestead, what makes you think it okay to forbid travel? What's to stop someone like yourself, based on your own logic, to declare Ganymede (a moon of Jupiter) off limits? Answer: Nothing.

Nothing, except, someone else like yourself...with guns.

[mozartus]

If so, Native Americans ask when y'all going home?

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by babsa To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What part of illegal does not translate to a crime?

The part where your parents bring you here as a child and you had no choice in the matter.

[DesertKnight]

	Originally Posted by SarcasticVlad To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It depends. Can those immigrants contribute in a significant way to the country (scientists for example)? If so, keep them. If not, deport them. But if only it were that simple. The entire system is broken.

This is a point of decent perception. I don't believe that we deal with immigration properly in the United States. That isn't to say I'm against immigration entirely I just believe the system we are currently using is so messed up it needs to be overhauled so that the people who want to come to this country for bettering themselves and their families can, and the people coming here with ill intentions are kept at bay.

This country was founded on the principle of immigration and elitism has destroyed that principle, I believe it needs to come back but I have no idea how that would be accomplished. Politics and opinion are so widely disparate these days that I don't think an amicable solution can be reached. So for the immediate and probably not so immediate future, nothing can be done to fix what is wrong.

[envirodude]

Without respect for the rule of law, where would we be, and where are we going? Change the law, or enforce it. I know this doesn't answer the question, but it should limit the alternatives.

[Doggzilla]

As someone who spent four years completely surrounded by Hispanic immigrants, I can provide some insight.
They do not know how to be Americans, and they do not like to interact with Americans, due to us making them feel insecure and inferior. They know they are on our turf, and they see us as having a great deal of power over them. They do not understand that we want them to be Americans, and they dont feel they can survive in an American world. This is why Hispanics tend to create neighborhoods. They want to be separate.

Having experience with a good deal of Hispanic medical workers, I find that they intentionally harm American patients, and often completely ignore blacks. Many of them trained in Hispanic only classes, never learned the American way of medicine, and many of them resent Americans due to being surrounded by only the sick/needy Americans. They have an absolutely astonishing level of racist hatred for blacks, but the blacks tend to handle it very well.
In professional settings, they do not usually try to emulate Americans. They believe in very strick classes, and those barriers are not to be crossed. They seem to be completely unaware that Americans of any class can interact with each other. A hispanic who is upper class to Hispanics also believes they are above middle class Americans and looks down apon them. They refuse to interact on a personal level with anybody of a different class, either lower or higher.
For instance, I know someone who is the highest class of Hispanic, he is a VP of sale for a telecom company. Hispanics are puzzled by someone of a low American class interacting so closely with this VP. They do not understand that because he is a third generation American, that he does not abide by Hispanic traditions. He has personally expressed to me how strange it is to be segregated from other classes while he is in south America. The others of his stature seem to be blown away when he interacts with low class people. The others have guards and groupies who follow them around, and they think this is normal.
Pretty much, we arent getting through to them. They are mixing the worst of their culture with the worst of ours, and they are suffering for it. They have an abnormally high rate of mental disease.

The most clear solution is to show them the way, try and interact with them more closely, share values, and treat them as equals. This country has developed a nasty habit of allowing citizens to shit all over other citizens. We dehumanize other people in our minds, even those of the same race and social status, and we use it to justify treating them poorly for our own short term gain. Then others do the same to us, and it screws everyone. Peer pressure is the answer to this, make people feel like certain behavior will brand them as trash, and they will avoid that behavior.

[Subgenius]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Americans I work with complain about them not learning to speak English and not teaching their children English so their children take up extra teacher time in public schools because the teacher has to teach English to them instead of math or whatever to the class.

Maybe you should take an English class. This sentence is badly written. What is your job? What kind of work do your coworkers do?

---------- Post added 05-28-2012 at 12:51 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Doggzilla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As someone who spent four years completely surrounded by Hispanic immigrants, I can provide some insight. They do not know how to be Americans, and they do not like to interact with Americans, due to us making them feel insecure and inferior. They know they are on our turf, and they see us as having a great deal of power over them. They do not understand that we want them to be Americans, and they dont feel they can survive in an American world. This is why Hispanics tend to create neighborhoods. They want to be separate. Having experience with a good deal of Hispanic medical workers, I find that they intentionally harm American patients, and often completely ignore blacks. Many of them trained in Hispanic only classes, never learned the American way of medicine, and many of them resent Americans due to being surrounded by only the sick/needy Americans. They have an absolutely astonishing level of racist hatred for blacks, but the blacks tend to handle it very well. In professional settings, they do not usually try to emulate Americans. They believe in very strick classes, and those barriers are not to be crossed. They seem to be completely unaware that Americans of any class can interact with each other. A hispanic who is upper class to Hispanics also believes they are above middle class Americans and looks down apon them. They refuse to interact on a personal level with anybody of a different class, either lower or higher. For instance, I know someone who is the highest class of Hispanic, he is a VP of sale for a telecom company. Hispanics are puzzled by someone of a low American class interacting so closely with this VP. They do not understand that because he is a third generation American, that he does not abide by Hispanic traditions. He has personally expressed to me how strange it is to be segregated from other classes while he is in south America. The others of his stature seem to be blown away when he interacts with low class people. The others have guards and groupies who follow them around, and they think this is normal. Pretty much, we arent getting through to them. They are mixing the worst of their culture with the worst of ours, and they are suffering for it. They have an abnormally high rate of mental disease. The most clear solution is to show them the way, try and interact with them more closely, share values, and treat them as equals. This country has developed a nasty habit of allowing citizens to shit all over other citizens. We dehumanize other people in our minds, even those of the same race and social status, and we use it to justify treating them poorly for our own short term gain. Then others do the same to us, and it screws everyone. Peer pressure is the answer to this, make people feel like certain behavior will brand them as trash, and they will avoid that behavior.

Can you back any of this up? This kind of reads like a bad Passing of the Great Race. Maybe you should read it, for it might give you some tips.

[eagleseven]

From what I've read, more illegals are returning to Mexico than are coming, ever since the 2008 crash. Easier to live in Mexico on very little, than in America.

At this point, I think border enforcement is pointless and impossible. I've traveled along the Texas/Mexico border...you can't tell the difference between the Americans and the Mexicans. And you better speak Spanish. Trying to round up that many people, sorting out who has papers, who's hiding illegals, tearing apart families, etc, is a task that would challenge Mussolini. No way in hell the US Government could pull it off.

Honestly, what's the difference if they pick cheap fruit here, or they pick cheap fruit in Mexico which gets shipped to the US (NAFTA)? Whether it's cheap labor domestically, or cheap imports from Mexico, the US worker gets hurt regardless.

[DrMacKay]

Agent 00 wrote: "The American Dream is an American Fallacy any more"

no! compared to USA many country look like hell, I don't agree, my own country is the hell compared to USA.

[thod]

I reckon lots would show up for deportation. It's a free vacation back home, catch up with the relatives, hang out a bit then return to the US. Why pay for it yourself.

[Nonsuch]

It doesn't seem possible to prevent illegal immigration so can't there be found a way to tax illegal aliens ?