[firebee]

Originally Posted by SeverusSin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think, if more women took up self defense activities like martial arts and got their inner confidence improved they'd have less of a problem with men touching them. Fear is the clincher here, and deep-seeded inbuilt fear is being paraded around the thread as if were a badge of honour. Women feeling able to go toe to toe with another person because they're skilled in martial arts, go to the gym or own a weapon is more likely to allow her to be more relaxed (possibly as relaxed as men are) about their personal boundaries and lead to less awkwardness and misinterpretation rather than if they are trained to fear and mistrust and respond awkwardly and negatively to what may be something quite innocent. Just sayin'.

I'm kind of intrigued by the notion that women ought to go off and train so that they have the inner confidence necessary not to enforce their personal boundaries. Tell me, what martial art is it that teaches its practitioners to let people get inside their personal space and to touch them without permission, and to defer to such intrusive behavior in order to avoid (golly gee) awkwardness and negativity?

[Storm]

I'm trying to think of a time where adult man would "frequently" touch an adult woman, assuming they don't know each other very well. The only things I can think of are events where such permission is given - such as team sky diving, medical situations, business "trust" exercises, and dances (how much to touch during a dance is very specific to the sub-culture).

Social contact between adult strangers in the American culture seems to be limited to handshakes, a light touch to get someone's attention, and maybe an occasional hug. None of these are what I would call "frequent" touchings. This is not limited between male-female interactions. I have not observed female strangers or male strangers engaging in frequent touchings.

[JustMel]

Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm trying to think of a time where adult man would "frequently" touch an adult woman, assuming they don't know each other very well. The only things I can think of are events where such permission is given - such as team sky diving, medical situations, business "trust" exercises, and dances (how much to touch during a dance is very specific to the sub-culture). Social contact between adult strangers in the American culture seems to be limited to handshakes, a light touch to get someone's attention, and maybe an occasional hug. None of these are what I would call "frequent" touchings. This is not limited between male-female interactions. I have not observed female strangers or male strangers engaging in frequent touchings.

It depends. I grew up in the South where people touch other people a lot. Strangers hug. Then I moved out West where it wasn't that big of a thing and people didn't act the same way. I came back here and nothing has changed. It's especially prevalent in older men here. My granddad has this friend (that he met while I was away) who is 81 and still tries to talk me into bed every time he sees me complete with hugging on me. Granddad has even told him "Charlie, stop she's not one of these girls you meet that is interested in your checkbook so will go home with you" a few years ago. Strangers here like to touch other people. A lot.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Zibber I work for a prosecutor so I see far more than your statistics and I see it first hand when it hits the legal system. Those statistics that are for every six minutes do not account for the false reports or cases of "buyer's remorse" so they're crap.

Are you saying RAINN inflates the number of sexual assaults in the US, or do you claim a significant amount of reported sexual assaults by people not known to the victim are false?

Could you explain "buyer's remorse"?

---------- Post added 05-20-2012 at 03:40 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My granddad has this friend (that he met while I was away) who is 81 and still tries to talk me into bed every time he sees me complete with hugging on me.

Isn't that flagrant sexual harassment, or don't you experience it as such?

[mieu]

Originally Posted by SeverusSin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have nothing more to add. The rest of your comments, especially that stupid video give me enough of an idea of the perspective you come from, its hilarious but I fundamentally disagree with you. Its all about taking responsibility of self, there's personal boundaries and there's unreasonable responses to normal interaction and there's other stuff like rape. I think, if more women took up self defense activities like martial arts and got their inner confidence improved they'd have less of a problem with men touching them. Fear is the clincher here, and deep-seeded inbuilt fear is being paraded around the thread as if were a badge of honour. Women feeling able to go toe to toe with another person because they're skilled in martial arts, go to the gym or own a weapon is more likely to allow her to be more relaxed (possibly as relaxed as men are) about their personal boundaries and lead to less awkwardness and misinterpretation rather than if they are trained to fear and mistrust and respond awkwardly and negatively to what may be something quite innocent. Just sayin'.

I taught martial arts for three years. I'm happy that I trained because it made my retaliatory 'love tap' actually make them think twice about touching me again. Fear wasn't a factor, it was indignation at a stranger thinking they had any right to touch me, because they don't. That the male in question is too stupid to understand concepts of personal space isn't my problem.

[SwedenF]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Could you explain "buyer's remorse"?

Might not be the definiton JustMel has, but whenever my uncle (police officer) uses it, he refers to a person who has sex with another person, and then regrets it, and to not get judged socially (or by themselves) for making that choice, they convince themselves it was rape, or simply lie saying it was.

[Nightmare]

	Originally Posted by SwedenF To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Might not be the definiton JustMel has, but whenever my uncle (police officer) uses it, he refers to a person who has sex with another person, and then regrets it, and to not get judged socially (or by themselves) for making that choice, they convince themselves it was rape, or simply lie saying it was.

Ugh. I know how this is first-hand. Try having the police show up at your residence, and being the guy in question. It really takes a special person to do something so absurd.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are you saying RAINN inflates the number of sexual assaults in the US, or do you claim a significant amount of reported sexual assaults by people not known to the victim are false?

I'm saying that RAINN, and most police departments, consider "acquaintances" who are not in your inner circle strangers when unfortunately a lot of them did not happen to pick a random victim. They've met her at a friend's, a party, dinner out, a service person, etc. True stranger rapes are very rare.

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Could you explain "buyer's remorse"?

	Originally Posted by SwedenF To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Might not be the definiton JustMel has, but whenever my uncle (police officer) uses it, he refers to a person who has sex with another person, and then regrets it, and to not get judged socially (or by themselves) for making that choice, they convince themselves it was rape, or simply lie saying it was.

This. It happens a lot. A LOT.

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Isn't that flagrant sexual harassment, or don't you experience it as such?

He's 81 and remembering his young days.

[Saggita]

Lol at they convince themselves it was rape part of the buyer's remorse post.

...Because, you know, some women don't know what consent is, and sometimes they get confused if they wanted the seks or not. Some women do lie about those things, but I'm pretty sure that if a woman is not sure if it was rape or not, most likely it was rape. Consent doesn't have any gray areas to work on. Either you gave it or you didn't.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm saying that RAINN, and most police departments, consider "acquaintances" who are not in your inner circle strangers when unfortunately a lot of them did not happen to pick a random victim. They've met her at a friend's, a party, dinner out, a service person, etc. True stranger rapes are very rare. This. It happens a lot. A LOT. He's 81 and remembering his young days.

Whatever.

Good luck on your path.

---------- Post added 05-21-2012 at 03:03 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by SwedenF To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Might not be the definiton JustMel has, but whenever my uncle (police officer) uses it, he refers to a person who has sex with another person, and then regrets it, and to not get judged socially (or by themselves) for making that choice, they convince themselves it was rape, or simply lie saying it was.

I bet your uncle's psychic abilities give him a real edge at the poker table.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Saggita To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Lol at they convince themselves it was rape part of the buyer's remorse post.

Did discovery a few years ago on a rape case. Girl's statement was "We went to dinner, then a movie then back to my place. I had decided he wasn't the type of guy I'd have sex with but wasn't ready for the date to end. We watched a movie at my house and started kissing. Then, you know, one thing led to another and I thought "why not" so we started making out pretty heavily and then he was inside me. I was okay at first but about fifteen seconds before he came I told him I'd changed my mind and to get off me and he didn't. I talked with my mom about it and she said since I said no and he finished it's rape so I want to file rape charges."

Buyer's remorse.

	Originally Posted by Saggita To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	...Because, you know, some women don't know what consent is, and sometimes they get confused if they wanted the seks or not. Some women do lie about those things, but I'm pretty sure that if a woman is not sure if it was rape or not, most likely it was rape. Consent doesn't have any gray areas to work on. Either you gave it or you didn't.

Not sure if it's rape or not? Either she consented or she didn't. Now, if she were drugged then there's no question that it's rape, consent or no.

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Whatever. Good luck on your path.

My path? My path is to ensure that my girls don't grow up seeing every male as a potential rapist and living in a heightened sense of fear 24/7. Being safe and responsible is one thing being paranoid because of what might happen is something else.

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I bet your uncle's psychic abilities give him a real edge at the poker table.

You don't have to be psychic. The women usually end up telling you they consented then afterward changed their minds and decided to report it or one we also see a lot is consent then because the guy doesn't call or want to go out again they file charges. The problem is that cases where women like the ones described in this response who have buyer's remorse and file false charges take time, money, resources, etc away from real victims. They also clog up the system and make it harder for true victims of rape to report it.

The douchebag known as Ken Buck and his asinine refusal to prosecute even after the perpetrator said the victim said no multiple times not withstanding, the women reporting a rape and then recant or state that they didn't want their parents/boyfriend/husband to find out they had sex with someone so file rape charges happens. I, personally, am seeing it more in juvenile court than in adult courts but, imo, that's even more alarming. Every rape has to be investigated which takes resources so every one that is false is taking away those resources from a case of a woman who was a real victim and makes it harder for authorities to believe the real victims.

Every false accusation that makes it into the news makes it that much harder for the real victims to receive justice. If police and juries are influenced by false reports, especially high-profile instances of false charges, like the Duke lacrosse case or the Hofstra case, why wouldn't those reports influence victims, too? Up to To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . The Hofstra story will only make more women wonder if the police will believe them. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[curiousgeorge01]

Damn, now you gave me something new to think about. Didn't know it was such a high number of false claims.

[SwedenF]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I bet your uncle's psychic abilities give him a real edge at the poker table.

I don't think he plays poker. /ignoring point

For real though, first time he told me about the concept I told myself "Holy crap, I would not want to meet you when you are working. You are one judgemental asshat". That's a long time ago now, and I honestly, with the things I've seen/heard from other girls/guys, I get why the term exists. Also, I've seen him in action, and let me tell you, if I ever need to meet a police, I hope it's him.

There is one very key aspect to keep in mind here. Just because one agrees it exists, doesn't mean you assume that's the case when you meet a girl who claims to have been raped. If I met a police who had that attitude, I would do my very best to get him fired. Go in with an open mind, and be supportive, but the goal should always be to find the truth.

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Did discovery a few years ago on a rape case.

Ouch. That's a tough case (although clearly buyers remorse). I don't envy a judge who gets that on their table. I feel for the guy. But also sort of for the girl. You should be able to end it at any time if you change your mind, no doubt, but at the same time, it's not easy to be a guy when girls don't know what the hell they want and send mixed signals like that. This is why people need to think more about one-nighters. I think it's fairly clear the guy does not deserve a rape-stamp, but then again, wouldn't quite want to send off the message that it's ok not to listen even if you are half-way in to it.

	The problem is that cases where women like the ones described in this response who have buyer's remorse and file false charges take time, money, resources, etc away from real victims. They also clog up the system and make it harder for true victims of rape to report it.

	Every rape has to be investigated which takes resources so every one that is false is taking away those resources from a case of a woman who was a real victim and makes it harder for authorities to believe the real victims.

And I believe that's the true reason some police/officials have a hard time with those cases. It's not because they look down on women or think rape is not a serious thing, in fact that's why they react as they do. Because it "ruins" things for the ones who were put through the "more serious" form of rape, that really need the resources and the support.

[SeverusSin]

Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm kind of intrigued by the notion that women ought to go off and train so that they have the inner confidence necessary not to enforce their personal boundaries. Tell me, what martial art is it that teaches its practitioners to let people get inside their personal space and to touch them without permission, and to defer to such intrusive behavior in order to avoid (golly gee) awkwardness and negativity?

Ok. Well when I'm being bullied at school, I'll just cower in the corner and say its the bully's fault, which it is. I also demand that people never steal, then I'll leave my front door open and all my belongings out front because surely people shouldn't steal. I shouldn't need to lock my things away. I do believe people shouldn't steal.

Just sayin'.

---------- Post added 05-22-2012 at 04:34 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm trying to think of a time where adult man would "frequently" touch an adult woman, assuming they don't know each other very well. The only things I can think of are events where such permission is given - such as team sky diving, medical situations, business "trust" exercises, and dances (how much to touch during a dance is very specific to the sub-culture). Social contact between adult strangers in the American culture seems to be limited to handshakes, a light touch to get someone's attention, and maybe an occasional hug. None of these are what I would call "frequent" touchings. This is not limited between male-female interactions. I have not observed female strangers or male strangers engaging in frequent touchings.

In France its custom for people to kiss as first greeting, same in Spain in my experience.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by SeverusSin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok. Well when I'm being bullied at school, I'll just cower in the corner and say its the bully's fault, which it is. I also demand that people never steal, then I'll leave my front door open and all my belongings out front because surely people shouldn't steal. I shouldn't need to lock my things away. I do believe people shouldn't steal.

That's nice and all. What does it have to do with the text you quoted?

[Saggita]

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's nice and all. What does it have to do with the text you quoted?

I think he tried to be ironic. But people don't go stealing houses because of the open doors. They do it because they previously wanted to steal.

If he's not being ironic, then I agree with him.

[SeverusSin]

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's nice and all. What does it have to do with the text you quoted?

What I'm saying is that in the scenarios I've described in my response, people have chosen to mitigate the problem by specifically safeguarding themselves. Women should safeguard themselves by protecting themselves adequate and responsibly. Lashing out at innocent touches sounds like an overcompensation for a fear of men, when simply dealing with that fear rationally by building up inner confidence (martial arts is good for that) I think is a more sensible approach, that's all.

That is as opposed to saying men shouldn't touch, get real, touching is required for human communication, get over it. That doesn't mean lowering personal boundaries either, but its about a healthy response to a perceived trespassing of those boundaries. Is not wise to seek the least conflict inducing response to behaviours you dislike?

[firebee]

Originally Posted by SeverusSin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What I'm saying is that in the scenarios I've described in my response, people have chosen to mitigate the problem by specifically safeguarding themselves. Women should safeguard themselves by protecting themselves adequate and responsibly. Lashing out at innocent touches sounds like an overcompensation for a fear of men, when simply dealing with that fear rationally by building up inner confidence (martial arts is good for that) I think is a more sensible approach, that's all. That is as opposed to saying men shouldn't touch, get real, touching is required for human communication, get over it. That doesn't mean lowering personal boundaries either, but its about a healthy response to a perceived trespassing of those boundaries. Is not wise to seek the least conflict inducing response to behaviours you dislike?

This also fails to answer my question -- which, for reference, was:

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Tell me, what martial art is it that teaches its practitioners to let people get inside their personal space and to touch them without permission, and to defer to such intrusive behavior in order to avoid (golly gee) awkwardness and negativity?

I would like an answer to this question, not a passive-aggressive whine about how you guess you'll just do nothing to prevent yourself be bullied and stolen from beyond demanding it, or a reiteration of your earlier statement that women should learn to let other people put their hands on them.

Please tell me what martial art teaches its practitioners that they should permit other people to intrude on their personal space to avoid "awkward and negative" interactions or that "touching is required for human communication, get over it".

---------- Post added 05-22-2012 at 01:02 PM ----------

And, I'll add -- I have a second degree black belt in Hapkido. I've also intermittently studied Tae Kwon Do, SCA rapier, and handgun shooting, and I know people who have studied a great many other arts. So we can cross these off the list as potential answers to my question, let's say.

[Moth]

Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Did discovery a few years ago on a rape case. Girl's statement was "We went to dinner, then a movie then back to my place. I had decided he wasn't the type of guy I'd have sex with but wasn't ready for the date to end. We watched a movie at my house and started kissing. Then, you know, one thing led to another and I thought "why not" so we started making out pretty heavily and then he was inside me. I was okay at first but about fifteen seconds before he came I told him I'd changed my mind and to get off me and he didn't. I talked with my mom about it and she said since I said no and he finished it's rape so I want to file rape charges." Buyer's remorse.

Who's to say that sex is best conceptualized as something you purchase as a package deal? When you express non-consent for its continuation, why should continuing it be considered nonetheless consensual? Whether or whether not that report was prosecutable is one thing, but if we hypothetically accept that what she said is true, what he did may well have been rape. The only thing that confuses the scenario slightly, for me, is wondering whether he'd have kept going if he'd needed any longer. But then, fifteen seconds also seems like quite of bit of time to get the message and back off. Time passes pretty slowly when you're only occupying it with pelvic thrusts, and I've seen men hop away plenty faster when their roommates pulled into the driveway.

The FBI's definition of rape, which does not apply legally but does reflect some national consensus regarding what ought to count as rape for statistical purposes, is admittedly ambiguous as to whether or whether not penetration is “penetration without consent” if consent is withdrawn part-way through, but there is certainly precedent for that kind of interpretation of the meaning of the word. High courts in some states have ruled in favor of victims who withdrew consent, and Illinois, at least, has passed legislation explicitly granting the right to withdraw sexual consent.

"How long is too long" to take to cease intercourse is often left to juries to decide, wisely or unwisely. It would be nice to see a more concrete look taken at that aspect of it.

	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Given the fact that many of these were cases of “stranger rape” and there was physical evidence in the form of trauma and DNA, the latter of which did after all exonerate the accused once courts had means of analyzing it, most of the cases in this study appear not to have been “false reports,” but rather misidentifications. There is little there to say that the rapes never happened – they just weren't necessarily committed by the men who were convicted of them (having frequently been picked out of photo lineups).

Merely being unviable for prosecution, or directed toward the wrong alleged perpetrator, does not make a rape claim “false” in the sense that the rape did not happen. It just means it isn't provable and the accused should not, therefore, suffer legal repercussion.

[JustMel]

Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Who's to say that sex is best conceptualized as something you purchase as a package deal? When you express non-consent for its continuation, why should continuing it be considered nonetheless consensual? Whether or whether not that report was prosecutable is one thing, but if we hypothetically accept that what she said is true, what he did may well have been rape. The only thing that confuses the scenario slightly, for me, is wondering whether he'd have kept going if he'd needed any longer. But then, fifteen seconds also seems like quite of bit of time to get the message and back off. Time passes pretty slowly when you're only occupying it with pelvic thrusts, and I've seen men hop away plenty faster when their roommates pulled into the driveway. The FBI's definition of rape, which does not apply legally but does reflect some national consensus regarding what ought to count as rape for statistical purposes, is admittedly ambiguous as to whether or whether not penetration is “penetration without consent” if consent is withdrawn part-way through, but there is certainly precedent for that kind of interpretation of the meaning of the word. High courts in some states have ruled in favor of victims who withdrew consent, and Illinois, at least, has passed legislation explicitly granting the right to withdraw sexual consent. "How long is too long" to take to cease intercourse is often left to juries to decide, wisely or unwisely. It would be nice to see a more concrete look taken at that aspect of it.

The guy in our case said she never said she'd changed her mind. They'd both been drinking fairly heavily so it's possible she changed her mind and he was focused. Both agreed she didn't try to get away from him or struggle.

Even as a female I wonder why a woman would decide fifteen seconds prior to completion of the act she would change her mind.

Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Given the fact that many of these were cases of “stranger rape” and there was physical evidence in the form of trauma and DNA, the latter of which did after all exonerate the accused once courts had means of analyzing it, most of the cases in this study appear not to have been “false reports,” but rather misidentifications. There is little there to say that the rapes never happened – they just weren't necessarily committed by the men who were convicted of them (having frequently been picked out of photo lineups). Merely being unviable for prosecution, or directed toward the wrong alleged perpetrator, does not make a rape claim “false” in the sense that the rape did not happen. It just means it isn't provable and the accused should not, therefore, suffer legal repercussion.

You're correct in that rapes did occur. That doesn't mean the lives of those men were any less destroyed than those that are victims of false reporting. Imprisoning the wrong man, making false reports, etc all lead to the problems prosecutors have when trying rape cases.

Granted I would love to see true rape cases prosecuted but I dislike innocent men accused of something they didn't do. Especially when every single one of those cases make it harder to prosecute the real rapes that do occur.

Through the years of counseling teen/early 20 something pregnant women I have seen numerous cases of girls finding out they're pregnant and telling their parents they were raped when in fact they were not. (they admitted later) They just didn't want anyone to be mad at them for having sex. Recently at the middle school (6th, 7th and 8th) two girls were heard by a teacher discussing what would happen if one girl turned out to be pregnant from sex at homecoming. The girl's friend said "If your test comes back positive just tell your parents he raped you. That's what I did and dad didn't yell at me and even agreed to the abortion he said I couldn't see Jason again but that's okay I was over him anyway." Several of the teachers have heard comments like this and they're becoming more rather than less prevalent in that age group. God forbid parents teach children to take responsibility for their own actions and the resultant consequences.

[Moth]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Even as a female I wonder why a woman would decide fifteen seconds prior to completion of the act she would change her mind.

It seems pretty possible that she didn't know exactly when he was going to orgasm, but either way, it doesn't matter: if either partner asks that it should stop, it should. (Though I agree that, given what you've told us, whether it happened or not could not have been reasonably proven.)

	Granted I would love to see true rape cases prosecuted but I dislike innocent men accused of something they didn't do.

So do I, I just don't think that equivocating misidentifications with false accusations of the "I don't want to be yelled at for sex so I'll tell dad he raped me"/"he didn't call and I'm bitter" varieties is exactly edifying.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It seems pretty possible that she didn't know exactly when he was going to orgasm, but either way, it doesn't matter: if either partner asks that it should stop, it should. (Though I agree that, given what you've told us, whether it happened or not could not have been reasonably proven.)

Unless you're a blushing virgin, which this girl was not, you can generally tell how close a man is to climax. There are exceptions but for the most part you can tell.

	Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So do I, I just don't think that equivocating misidentifications with false accusations of the "I don't want to be yelled at for sex so I'll tell dad he raped me"/"he didn't call and I'm bitter" varieties is exactly edifying.

In both cases an innocent man is accused of rape. A charge which can and often does ruin his life. Working in the legal system I have a serious issue with someone being convicted based on eyewitness testimony alone.

In one case you have the legal system imposing a sentence on someone who didn't commit a crime and in the other you have someone potentially having a sentence imposed who did not commit a crime.

[curiousgeorge01]

	Originally Posted by Moth To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It seems pretty possible that she didn't know exactly when he was going to orgasm, but either way, it doesn't matter: if either partner asks that it should stop, it should. (Though I agree that, given what you've told us, whether it happened or not could not have been reasonably proven.)

I have an issue with this. Isn't entering already giving consent of sex? At what point is the line drawn? Just because he finished? What if he pumped three more times after she said stop but didn't finish? Is that considered rape?

[Seriously]

	Unless you're a blushing virgin, which this girl was not, you can generally tell how close a man is to climax. There are exceptions but for the most part you can tell.

I can't and I'm not a blushing virgin.

I wouldn't call it rape though I would call it a guy being a selfish douche.

[Saggita]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have an issue with this. Isn't entering already giving consent of sex? At what point is the line drawn? Just because he finished? What if he pumped three more times after she said stop but didn't finish? Is that considered rape?

Yes it is. Consent isn't permanent. One can withdraw it any given time. Doesn't matter if the partner is halfway through orgasm.