[vampyroteuthis]

Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I didn't realize you weren't smart enough to distinguish a "lesser of two evils" scenario. Additionally, I didn't realize you weren't smart enough to extrapolate that a movement away from CP in favor of other methods in it's place, leading to higher dropout rates and rates of juvenile incarceration is obviously indicative of a move in the wrong direction-assuming only that lowered rates of dropout and juvenile incarceration are preferable.

I understood that you were setting it up as a "lesser of two evils" scenario, but I'm asking what your criteria are and why you seem to be locked into this false dichotomy. Does insulting people's intelligence usually enable you to waffle?

	They are preferable in my view.

Which you will explain when?

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why didn't you say this in the beginning? Would have saved us both a lot of time.

Because my experience as a parent and foster parent raising multiple productive, successful children who are all well mannered seems more important than someone who works in law.

[Subgenius]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	@ subgenius and Vamp: Here, To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Educate yourselves then we can talk.

Yeah, I still don't see what this has to do with a program being put in place in Memphis other than for you to prove some kind of unrelated point that you say you haven't admitted to even making. Maybe I missed a comment, but I didn't see what made for this transition. From what I skimmed, the best practice model in here included what I said about having a shrink in-house but funding prevents it. I'll give it a looksie later, for I have a linguistics class I need to be at 45 minutes early to. Adios.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I understood that you were setting it up as a "lesser of two evils" scenario, but I'm asking what your criteria are and why you seem to be locked into this false dichotomy. Does insulting people's intelligence usually enable you to waffle?

How do you figure there's any waffling?

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Which you will explain when?

If this is something I must explain you are literally too stupid for my time, rather than someone who might be insulted into providing a firm position.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 04:33 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, I still don't see what this has to do with a program being put in place in Memphis other than for you to prove some kind of unrelated point that you say you haven't admitted to even making. Maybe I missed a comment, but I didn't see what made for this transition. From what I skimmed, the best practice model in here included what I said about having a shrink in-house but funding prevents it. I'll give it a looksie later, for I have a linguistics class I need to be at 45 minutes early to. Adios.

It has to do with Memphis only in that public education inherently includes children from all walks of life. That "parent report cards" could succeed in converting some parents from what they are to something closer to what the state would prefer is laughable.

In my view the idea is an extension of the circular reasoning to which I've already alluded.

Cry me a river public educators. You chose the profession, now "bratty kids" have turned your summer vacation into 9 months of actual work.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How do you figure there's any waffling? If this is something I must explain you are literally too stupid for my time, rather than someone who might be insulted into providing a firm position.

Assumptions that make you go thus far and no further.

1. Why is it a choice between legalised corporal punishment and institutionalisation? Why the dichotomy?
2. How does framing corporal punishment as 'recourse' when 'non corporal methods fail' not rest on the assumption that corporal punishment is more successful, even if deferred to a "last resort"? What is it more successful at achieving, how do you know it's more successful, and why is that goal desirable -- not from the point of view of educators seeking to maintain order, but in your view?
3. Why conflate what's preferable in your view to what's systemically optimal? The shift to a prison pipeline model isn't incidental. You've no basis for assuming it's a move towards decreased efficiency. Efficiency is measured in relation to outcomes that don't map to your naive view of what education ought to do.
4. If you stake out what you think education ought to do, you might find that the existing structure does not support it. That's why I asked you what your criteria are.

You throw around terms like "efficient" and "desirable" but switch between what's efficient and desirable for the system and what you find ethical. I really don't know how many more ways there are to ask the same set of questions. The attempt at using bullying tactics is consistent with the argument, though, so at least you have that.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Assumptions that make you go thus far and no further. Why is it a choice between legalised corporal punishment and institutionalisation? Why the dichotomy?

1. I didn't choose those two options. They were chosen by the state (Texas in this case). CP used to be the "deterrent of last resort" now it's ADC (alternative discipline centers) in most large school districts.
   
   

   	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
   	How does framing corporal punishment as 'recourse' when 'non corporal methods fail' not rest on the assumption that corporal punishment is more successful, even if deferred to a "last resort"? What is it more successful at achieving, how do you know it's more successful, and why is that goal desirable -- not from the point of view of educators seeking to maintain order, but in your view?

   If this is your argumentative way of attempting to have me state that I find fewer kids dropping out and/or being incarcerated a more desirable goal, fine. I thought that I had already conceded that view.
   
   
   
   

   Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

   Why conflate what's preferable in your view to what's systemically optimal? The shift to a prison pipeline model isn't incidental. You've no basis for assuming it's a move towards decreased efficiency. Efficiency is measured in relation to outcomes that don't map to your naive view of what education ought to do. If you stake out what you think education ought to do, you might find that the existing structure does not support it. That's why I asked you what your criteria are.

   Again, I thought that I had already conceded the opinion that education (here in Texas) ought to do what it used to do, which was result in fewer juvenile age humans dropping out of high school and being incarcerated.
   
   

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You throw around terms like "efficient" and "desirable" but switch between what's efficient and desirable for the system and what you find ethical. I really don't know how many more ways there are to ask the same set of questions. The attempt at using bullying tactics is consistent with the argument, though, so at least you have that.

I'm so sorry you feel bullied!! Do you think it'll make you go on a murderous rampage? Is there something perhaps the state could do to intervene?

If your position is that these kids will ultimately end up in prison anyway, why not just abort them when undesirables become pregnant and use the tax dollars for something we all might enjoy.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I didn't choose those two options. They were chosen by the state (Texas in this case). CP used to be the "deterrent of last resort" now it's ADC (alternative discipline centers) in most large school districts.

Why be limited by what the state has chosen so far?

	If this is your argumentative way of attempting to have me state that I find fewer kids dropping out and/or being incarcerated a more desirable goal, fine. I thought that I had already conceded that view.

One does not follow from the other. I agree with your premise but you've yet to show that "recourse" to corporal punishment is the only viable alternative.

	Again, I thought that I had already conceded the opinion that education (here in Texas) ought to do what it used to do, which was result in fewer juvenile age humans dropping out of high school and being incarcerated.

Again, limiting. Why should it do what it used to do, instead of something else entirely?

	I'm so sorry you feel bullied!! Do you think it'll make you go on a murderous rampage? Is there something perhaps the state could do to intervene?

My point was that your tactics aren't working, but they do reveal a limitation in your thinking. It's telling that you said:

	If this is something I must explain you are literally too stupid for my time, rather than someone who might be insulted into providing a firm position.

That you think insulting me is a valid or necessary tactic suggests that maybe the problem isn't that alternative methods of discourse and teaching don't work so much as that you are not able to understand them.

	If your position is that these kids will ultimately end up in prison anyway, why not just abort them when undesirables become pregnant and use the tax dollars for something we all might enjoy.

My position is that the system isn't inefficient, but unethical, and you're conflating the two.

[JustMel]

Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It has to do with Memphis only in that public education inherently includes children from all walks of life. That "parent report cards" could succeed in converting some parents from what they are to something closer to what the state would prefer is laughable. In my view the idea is an extension of the circular reasoning to which I've already alluded. Cry me a river public educators. You chose the profession, now "bratty kids" have turned your summer vacation into 9 months of actual work.

Wrong it has to do with Memphis because Memphis is the one talking about parent report cards.

The report card, had you read the premise of the thread, is to grade parents on their involvement on those things: tardies, absences, attending parent/teacher conferences, ensuring homework is completed.

[Arcanist]

Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I support a public education system for those whose parents can't/won't afford private school. However, I think that schools should recognize that not all students learn the same way and they should take that into account when teaching. Our kids are given a test to see how they learn (visually, verbally, etc) and then they are taught the way that works for them in elementary schools. The HS is working on implementing the same type of system. Your question is inflammatory at best and ignorant at worst. No one wants any child damaged at least not intentionally however you can't prove that the majority of kids are harmed from a public education. Give it up already. You had a shitty school time, not everyone does.

If they leave the system as statists, then the damage is done. Do public schools even teach philosophy?

@Subgenius

We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. If the situation in Memphis is as you describe, in other words, riddled with corruption then I don't see any solution other than razing the system. That is preferable to funneling money into the pockets of crooked politicians and administrators. I would say rethink the entire concept of "education" but that is too big of an issue to cover at this time.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why be limited by what the state has chosen so far?

Best I could figure out, the topic of this thread was related to state action/potential action. I chose to bring in conversation about the actual actions of another state, foolishly hoping people here possessed sufficient intelligence to draw some parallels.

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	One does not follow from the other. I agree with your premise but you've yet to show that "recourse" to corporal punishment is the only viable alternative.

Where did you get the idea that I think it's the only viable alternative? I thought that I'd already offered an option to simply shoot children who misbehave.

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Again, limiting. Why should it do what it used to do, instead of something else entirely?

I suppose we could advocate for the public education system to turn all enrolled children into rock stars, genies, or any number of other things. It seems foolish though.

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My point was that your tactics aren't working, but they do reveal a limitation in your thinking. It's telling that you said:

You throw around the word "point" preceeded by a possessive pronoun. We must having differing definitions.

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That you think insulting me is a valid or necessary tactic suggests that maybe the problem isn't that alternative methods of discourse and teaching don't work so much as that you are not able to understand them.

You're 100% correct in concluding that I don't understand you. I also don't understand serial killers, pedophiles, etc. Not certain this makes me stupid.

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My position is that the system isn't inefficient, but unethical, and you're conflating the two.

Thanks for sharing that.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 05:50 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wrong it has to do with Memphis because Memphis is the one talking about parent report cards. The report card, had you read the premise of the thread, is to grade parents on their involvement on those things: tardies, absences, attending parent/teacher conferences, ensuring homework is completed.

I understand the theory behind the report cards. It is borne of the incredibly arrogant position that everything public schools are doing to mentor children is 100% flawless, therefore if there are deficiencies they must reside with the parents.

What amazes me is that anyone can be so arrogant as to propose such a thing with a straight face.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 05:54 PM ----------

The same concept is being tossed around a little here in Texas. The Texas system is so flawless that better results were being achieved nearly 20 years ago.

But talk to an educator and you'll soon discover that everything the public school system has done has been an improvement. Parents on the other hand have changed for the worse. They'll tell you that with a straight face as well.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Best I could figure out, the topic of this thread was related to state action/potential action. I chose to bring in conversation about the actual actions of another state, foolishly hoping people here possessed sufficient intelligence to draw some parallels.

Why limit yourself to those two options instead of considering non-corporal methods?

	Where did you get the idea that I think it's the only viable alternative? I thought that I'd already offered an option to simply shoot children who misbehave.

Correction: why limit yourself to those three options instead of considering non-corporal methods?

	I suppose we could advocate for the public education system to turn all enrolled children into rock stars, genies, or any number of other things. It seems foolish though.

Correction: why limit--
Well, they did allow me to be a fireman for a while. And a fish.

	You throw around the word "point" preceeded by a possessive pronoun. We must having differing definitions.

Ok.

	You're 100% correct in concluding that I don't understand you. I also don't understand serial killers, pedophiles, etc. Not certain this makes me stupid.

I am a non corporal method.

	Thanks for sharing that.

You can have half of my sandwich too.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If they leave the system as statists, then the damage is done. Do public schools even teach philosophy?

The ones I attended did as does the high school my kids have/will attend.

Clueless: It's not all arrogance. Despite what you think. It's a matter of "the schools say they've done all they can. The parents say they're doing all they can." Here's the only solution we can come up with to see where the problem really is. However, with Memphis City Schools it's not just a breakdown in communication it's a system breakdown. Complete failure. The schools are horrible, there aren't enough books to go around as it is, kids are dropping out, gangs are invading no matter how many cops/metal detectors they have because Memphis is a seriously poor city and it's primarily made up of welfare families. Even the families that have parents who are working 2 and 3 jobs are still below the poverty level and are getting some kind of assistance. Therefore, this is where they are attempting to start with a solution because begging parents to participate in children's schooling isn't working. A lot of the parents are dropouts and can't help their kids at home and don't have transportation to get them to afterschool tutoring, etc unless they take public transportation and with multiple children, little daycare, it's almost impossible. This is a crisis decades in the making.

[Arcanist]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The ones I attended did as does the high school my kids have/will attend.

Are they statists?

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Clueless: It's not all arrogance. Despite what you think.

You're more familiar with your own area than I. I'll defer to your view of your specific geography. The conditions you describe below are not present in many troubled schools here in Texas, definitely not in the ones with which I'm experienced and which were then the impetus for my own research.

Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's a matter of "the schools say they've done all they can. The parents say they're doing all they can." Here's the only solution we can come up with to see where the problem really is. However, with Memphis City Schools it's not just a breakdown in communication it's a system breakdown. Complete failure. The schools are horrible, there aren't enough books to go around as it is, kids are dropping out, gangs are invading no matter how many cops/metal detectors they have because Memphis is a seriously poor city and it's primarily made up of welfare families. Even the families that have parents who are working 2 and 3 jobs are still below the poverty level and are getting some kind of assistance. Therefore, this is where they are attempting to start with a solution because begging parents to participate in children's schooling isn't working. A lot of the parents are dropouts and can't help their kids at home and don't have transportation to get them to afterschool tutoring, etc unless they take public transportation and with multiple children, little daycare, it's almost impossible. This is a crisis decades in the making.

The entire country is experiencing a crisis decades in the making, not just Memphis schools. The trouble is too few people realize it, others who do have no idea what the causes were and therefore none as to what the solutions may be.

You have folks like Vamp here who take an idealistic position against a measure such as corporal punishment, without any inkling as to what the greater evil may be.

Does it ever occur to these people that the world can be a vicious, cruel place? At what age would we have children begin to be clued-in on this reality?

Would it be better to have them understand that they can modify their own behavior and avoid excessively unpleasant consequences at a young age, or wait until the misbehavior has escalated to armed robbery to let them know that society will in fact levy a heavy penalty for socially unacceptable behavior?

Like it or not, believe it or not, some children do not respond to anything other than an intolerable consequence. I'm not going to have my 3 year-old be electrocuted by sticking a bobby-pin into a wall outlet because he failed to take my counsel seriously. I don't care if he's curious, if he understands electricity, if he thinks it might be fun.

After he's risen from "time-out" and/or "redirection" and "positive reinforcement", if he continues in his endeavor to explore the wall outlet with a metal object I will provide a deterrent that accomplishes my goal, which is his longer term safety. In the process he'll also learn that it can be extremely painful to continually defy those who have greater leverage. If I fail to teach him this secondary lesson and he's not intelligent enough to figure it out for himself, does anyone truly believe that strangers will be more forgiving than loved ones?

People amaze me. On the one hand they intellectualize human behavior to the nth degree, while on the other assigning no ability in others (outside themselves) to achieve nuanced understanding. The absolute that "violence" (there's that word) only teaches/reinforces violence is preposterous. Unless we are to assume Vamp is an extremely violent person. But, you're the exception aren't you Vamp?
All humans (not just you Vamp) are capable of nuanced understanding. Parents (and anyone acting in a parental capacity, i.e. grade school teachers) do a tremendous disservice by "giving up" when idealized methods fail. It's our responsibility to accomplish the task of rearing children to be functional, productive adults-whatever it takes. That means leaving no tools untried and progressing from least to most invasive in pursuit of this result.

It's very similar to triage. Assume a misbehaving (difficult) child is an extremity with a deep cut. If you apply a tourniquet you'll save the body (school) but lose the extremity. Do you apply the tourniquet anyway because philosophically you're OK with band-aids (the cut was too severe) but opposed to the application of pressure?

[vampyroteuthis]

Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

People amaze me. On the one hand they intellectualize human behavior to the nth degree, while on the other assigning no ability in others (outside themselves) to achieve nuanced understanding. The absolute that "violence" (there's that word) only teaches/reinforces violence is preposterous. Unless we are to assume Vamp is an extremely violent person. But, you're the exception aren't you Vamp? All humans (not just you Vamp) are capable of nuanced understanding. Parents (and anyone acting in a parental capacity, i.e. grade school teachers) do a tremendous disservice by "giving up" when idealized methods fail. It's our responsibility to accomplish the task of rearing children to be functional, productive adults-whatever it takes. That means leaving no tools untried and progressing from least to most invasive in pursuit of this result. It's very similar to triage. Assume a misbehaving (difficult) child is an extremity with a deep cut. If you apply a tourniquet you'll save the body (school) but lose the extremity. Do you apply the tourniquet anyway because philosophically you're OK with band-aids (the cut was too severe) but opposed to the application of pressure?

No. I am
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
physical abuse does damage that no amount of good manners or schoolyard order makes okay. And I have been very polite.

Ugh.

[Clueless]

And just in case anyone missed it, what I'm saying is that child-rearing is the responsibility of EVERYONE who voluntarily chooses to be involved with children. There's no logic in one party refusing to perform based upon the personal opinion that another involved party is performing poorly.

If you're in a leaking boat, do you quit bailing because you feel others aren't bailing as well as they should or could?

If we can't develop a workable solution maybe we should begin academic education later in life. Wait and see whether the parents can provide a cooperative student before wasting public funds. That's more reasonable than pointing fingers.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 09:16 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. I am To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. physical abuse does damage that no amount of good manners or schoolyard order makes okay. And I have been very polite. Ugh.

I am truly sorry you were abused. But all corporal punishment does not constitute abuse. In my view, even punishment that borders on physical abuse is preferable to the alternative of having children funneled into the prison system because we refuse to first try something less abusive than that.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am truly sorry you were abused. But all corporal punishment does not constitute abuse. In my view, even punishment that borders on physical abuse is preferable to the alternative of having children funneled into the prison system because we refuse to first try something less abusive than that.

Thank you for your concern. But a system that legitimizes corporal punishment lends itself quite smoothly to abuse glibly dismissed with lines about "a firm swat on the ass". The same glibness is one of the lessons learned as the normalized way to speak about it without worrying about placement in categories of strength based on damage done.

I see no reason to accept the shitty choice you set up, instead of discussing better possibilities that aren't already instantiated by the state. Child Education is a rich field.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thank you for your concern. But a system that legitimizes corporal punishment lends itself quite smoothly to abuse glibly dismissed with lines about "a firm swat on the ass". The same glibness is one of the lessons learned as the normalized way to speak about it without worrying about placement in categories of strength based on damage done. I see no reason to accept the shitty choice you set up, instead of discussing better possibilities that aren't already instantiated by the state. Child Education is a rich field.

Again, in the meantime the show must go on. Until we have methods that eliminate the need for corporal punishment it stands as an option that is less abusive than one now being used instead.

I'm in favor of doing everything possible to save the child before relegating him to a life of incarceration.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 09:43 PM ----------

@ Vamp,

So should we ban all pain killers because they lend themselves well to abuse? Or is the legitimate beneficial use of painkillers something that is a net-positive for society?

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are they statists?

Meaning are the public? Yes.

[Arcanist]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Meaning are the public? Yes.

No, that's not what I meant. But at this point, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. But I do ask that you at least consider the possibility that a highly structured, regimented environment is harmful to certain subsets of children.

[Subgenius]

Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If they leave the system as statists, then the damage is done. Do public schools even teach philosophy? @Subgenius We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. If the situation in Memphis is as you describe, in other words, riddled with corruption then I don't see any solution other than razing the system. That is preferable to funneling money into the pockets of crooked politicians and administrators. I would say rethink the entire concept of "education" but that is too big of an issue to cover at this time.

lol, good luck doing that with some of the families in control of Memphis.

[Arcanist]

	Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	lol, good luck doing that with some of the families in control of Memphis.

Well, if people accept the status quo, then they deserve what is happening to them. Some people just lurve being raped by politicos.

[Subgenius]

Eh, the families have been in power for a long time. The ancien riche are hard to root out of any city. They don't totally rape their citizenry either. Enough is given to keep them in power. There are benefits to backing the Ford family and others. Schools just aren't really one of them.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Until we have methods

Are "we" limited to the methods of the state?

	less abusive

Is "not abusive" too difficult?

	save the child

Only from incarceration.

	So should we ban all pain killers because they lend themselves well to abuse? Or is the legitimate beneficial use of painkillers something that is a net-positive for society?

Does corporal punishment benefit children?

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are "we" limited to the methods of the state?

You've asked this question in one form or another many times. I'll tell you what, assume infinite possibilities and then go ahead and provide a list of your personal top 10.

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is "not abusive" too difficult?

nah, just too ineffective.

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Only from incarceration.

Unless you're typing from a prison cell, I'd say that's mighty courageous of you.

	Originally Posted by vampyroteuthis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does corporal punishment benefit children?

As a matter of fact there are some studies which indicate that it does. My personal belief is that there aren't any valid studies pro or con but hey, torture numbers.