[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I find it amusing that you talk about personal growth and the well-rounded individual. Tell me how a state system that forces conformity, usually through one's addled peers, produces a well-rounded individual. The state system lays a narrow track of thoughts and ideas before you. Deviate and be destroyed.

Because my experience and my children's experience in public school are not what you are describing. Not all public schools are the cess pit of of "narrow track of thoughts and ideas". Kids are not punished by peers or teachers for asking questions or offering other ideas contrary to what the teacher offers. Not once. I have 11 children who have all been in public school (except the one that went through homeschool beginning 1/2 way through her sophomore year) and none of them were ever punished or ridiculed for offering an alternative to the "norm".

I don't see the "forced conformity" you speak of. If one was to see that happening I'd think it would be more prevalent in religious based private schools where you are expected to conform to the religious beliefs held by that school.

[Arcanist]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There is nothing wrong with being conformist if the consensus is an accurate picture of the world.

It's not.

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No amount of believing will allow you to cast magic spells or walk through walls.

What are you talking about?

[Booko]

Most of the school administrators I had to work with couldn't find their way out of a paper sack.

I gave them my report card.

Halfway through 10th grade we took our daughter out to homeschool her so she could get an actual education, because they sure as hell were not doing much of that.

[Arcanist]

Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Because my experience and my children's experience in public school are not what you are describing. Not all public schools are the cess pit of of "narrow track of thoughts and ideas". Kids are not punished by peers or teachers for asking questions or offering other ideas contrary to what the teacher offers. Not once. I have 11 children who have all been in public school (except the one that went through homeschool beginning 1/2 way through her sophomore year) and none of them were ever punished or ridiculed for offering an alternative to the "norm". I don't see the "forced conformity" you speak of. If one was to see that happening I'd think it would be more prevalent in religious based private schools where you are expected to conform to the religious beliefs held by that school.

But you're not always there to see what's going on at the school. It's the structure...

Did you check out the link I provided?

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't see the "forced conformity" you speak of. If one was to see that happening I'd think it would be more prevalent in religious based private schools where you are expected to conform to the religious beliefs held by that school.

That depends on the school. I know quite a few Baha'i kids who go to Catholic or Quaker schools, and they report a better experience than in the public schools where their religious beliefs are concerned. I was a Girl Scout leader at an Episcopalian school for about 5 years -- they didn't demand conformity either from what I saw.

On the other hand, there are some students I and my husband have tutored that were in the local segregation academies...

---------- Post added 04-27-2012 at 02:11 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	2) Grading bad parents will do nothing but aggravate them. They'll still be bad parents.

Half of the parents of students in schools near me are not very functional in English. They depend on their kids to come translate if they come to vote or have to do some business outside their community.

So sending home grades for them would be a real hoot.

Yeah, I live in a part of my city where all the new immigrants turn up. It's been that way for over 25 years.

The food shopping options and restaurants are awesome.
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[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But you're not always there to see what's going on at the school. It's the structure... Did you check out the link I provided?

Yes. It didn't change anything considering I'm at my kids' schools at least twice a week and my kids know they can tell me anything that happens at school. I had a teacher who decided it was her place to get in my kid's face (close enough to spit on) and scream at her. She is no longer employed and my kid was out of her class the next day. The superintendent of the district recommended I file assault charges against the teacher.

I have battled teachers, principals, former administrators, etc. Unless you're going to homeschool, and most parents aren't equipped and Gateway is a fucking joke, public and private schools are equal these days with the rare exception being a school that has less than 20 kids per class which even our private and montessori schools do not have.

The only issue I really have with our schools are the tests they have to take to find out how much federal money they'll get next year. They push the tests too much rather than actually seeking to teach them to understand the material. Which is why we go over it and make sure they understand it at home. We had the same issues with private schools only it was tests to determine other financial issues.

You had a shitty experience in public school. You had experience quite like a lot of inner city Memphis kids say they're having. My kids do not. I'll be at the school three days next week proctoring exams. Yes, it's a public school system but it should not be considered free daycare because first, it's not free and second, it's not daycare.

---------- Post added 04-27-2012 at 01:17 PM ----------

Edit: One of the biggest problems I see in public schools which I've also seen in private, are the ill mannered, ill behaved children. Parents don't teach their children manners or how to listen to adults so the teachers end up with a class full of bratty children who won't listen to their parents much less their teachers.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by Fujimoto To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm willing to bet that was because parents actually cared about how well their kids did, AND the kids knew there would be consequences for poor work.

There would be consequences for poor work at home, and consequences for bad behaviour at school. Schools no longer seem to be able to enforce even the most rudimentary decent behaviour.

	Today's parents expect that teachers will do all the work for them, when in fact teachers have very little authority.

Nearly all moms were at home when I was in school in the 60s and dads worked 40 hours a week with maybe a little overtime on Saturday if you could get it. Things were generally less frazzled and distracting and parents had more time to actually parent.

Some parents today actually to do expect teachers to teach. Holding down multiple jobs makes it a tad difficult for them to pick up the slack. And there does seem to be more slack to pick up.

I'm still wondering how the hell my daughter could get through 3rd grade and only in the last month the teacher decided multiplication tables might be nice to know.

If my 3rd grade teacher had been that off base she would've been coached by a competent staff and if that didn't work she'd be fired and replaced by someone who could get through the material.

[Harmony]

I'm not sure about this. Part of me thinks it's a good idea in theory.... And part of me thinks its a very bad idea.

If parents are going to get graded, I think the child or parent needs the chance to grade the teacher. Actually...now that I think about it... I think I vaguely remember having end of the year surveys on my teachers in high school... Maybe... It's been too many years, I might be thinking of college since i know we did it in college.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by Harmony To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If parents are going to get graded, I think the child or parent needs the chance to grade the teacher. Actually...now that I think about it... I think I vaguely remember having end of the year surveys on my teachers in high school... Maybe... It's been too many years, I might be thinking of college since i know we did it in college.

Nah, we were doing end of the semester reviews in middle and high school and that was back in the day...so you probably remember just fine.

Where all that data ended up is anyone's guess.

And my parents didn't have input like that.

[Subgenius]

Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yes. It didn't change anything considering I'm at my kids' schools at least twice a week and my kids know they can tell me anything that happens at school. I had a teacher who decided it was her place to get in my kid's face (close enough to spit on) and scream at her. She is no longer employed and my kid was out of her class the next day. The superintendent of the district recommended I file assault charges against the teacher. I have battled teachers, principals, former administrators, etc. Unless you're going to homeschool, and most parents aren't equipped and Gateway is a fucking joke, public and private schools are equal these days with the rare exception being a school that has less than 20 kids per class which even our private and montessori schools do not have. The only issue I really have with our schools are the tests they have to take to find out how much federal money they'll get next year. They push the tests too much rather than actually seeking to teach them to understand the material. Which is why we go over it and make sure they understand it at home. We had the same issues with private schools only it was tests to determine other financial issues. You had a shitty experience in public school. You had experience quite like a lot of inner city Memphis kids say they're having. My kids do not. I'll be at the school three days next week proctoring exams. Yes, it's a public school system but it should not be considered free daycare because first, it's not free and second, it's not daycare. ---------- Post added 04-27-2012 at 01:17 PM ---------- Edit: One of the biggest problems I see in public schools which I've also seen in private, are the ill mannered, ill behaved children. Parents don't teach their children manners or how to listen to adults so the teachers end up with a class full of bratty children who won't listen to their parents much less their teachers.

eh, public schools and private schools in Memphis are not the same. MUS and Hutchinson are miles ahead of any school in the whole Delta.

[Arcanist]

If they are taught that the state is a moral institution, then the damage is done. No matter the degree to which you oversee their education.

[Subgenius]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If they are taught that the state is a moral institution, then the damage is done. No matter the degree to which you oversee their education.

Are you an inner city public school teacher? Specifically in the south?

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	eh, public schools and private schools in Memphis are not the same. MUS and Hutchinson are miles ahead of any school in the whole Delta.

Those are not the "average" private school either. Most big cities have elite private schools. However, I know someone whose children attend Hutchison and they're paying almost $
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a year per kid not counting their books. Most people, especially in Memphis, can't afford that and it's a girls prepatory day school which again is not your average private school .

The bottom line The most obvious discrepancy between public and private schools comes down to cold, hard cash. The good news for parents is that public schools cannot charge tuition. The bad news is that public schools are complicated, often underfunded operations influenced by political winds and shortfalls. Financed through federal, state, and local taxes, public schools are part of a larger school system, which functions as a part of the government and must follow the rules and regulations set by politicians. In contrast, private schools must generate their own funding, which typically comes from a variety of sources: tuition; private grants; and fundraising from parents, alumni, and other community members. (Ever wonder why private schools celebrate Grandparent's Day and public schools don't?) If the school is associated with a religious group, the local branch may provide an important source of funding as well. For parents this quickly translates into the bad news: high tuition costs and sometimes an exhausting work calendar of parent-sponsored fundraisers. According to the To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , the median tuition for their member private day schools in 2008-2009 in the United States was $17,441. Tuition for boarding schools was close to $37,017. (Of the 28,384 private schools in the United States, about 1,050 are affiliated with the NAIS. Average tuition for nonmember schools is substantially less: Day schools charge $10,841 and boarding schools $23,448.)

Not all schools are created equal:

While most people assume that teachers at private schools are as qualified as those at public ones, it's important to note that all teachers in a public school are usually state certified or, at a minimum, working toward certification. Certification ensures that a teacher has gone through the training required by the state, which includes student teaching and course work. Teachers in private schools may not be required to have certification. Instead, they often have subject-area expertise and an undergraduate or graduate degree in the subject they teach.

The "voucher program" they're offering as a solution has a raging debate due to some seeing it as a bailout for private schools that are failing.
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It failed to pass this time but I'm sure it will be back as they're still debating it.

And the debate still rages public vs private:

Public school students in fourth and eighth grade scored almost as well or better than their private school peers in reading and math, except that private school students excelled in eighth-grade reading. A To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (pdf) challenged the results, using the same data but different methods. Researchers found that private schools came out ahead in 11 of 12 comparisons of students. Earlier in 2006, an analysis of math scores by two University of Illinois researchers found similar results to the NCES study. " To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. " (pdf) states that "after accounting for the fact that private schools serve more advantaged populations, public schools perform remarkably well, often outscoring private and charter schools."

Interesting information
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including ACT scores for Memphis city schools.

TN Education officials declare "
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." For those that aren't familiar one of the "church based schools" they're referring to is Gateway which I've always said is a joke. When my 20 yr old had to be homeschooled mid way through her sophomore year we bought the books including the teacher editions and my husband stayed home to teach her. She tested higher than 75% of graduating seniors in the state that took the same test.

[Arcanist]

	Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are you an inner city public school teacher? Specifically in the south?

No, I'm not. All I'm trying to get across is that 13 years of imprisonment within the depraved public "education" system, really screwed me up. It screwed a lot of kids up. I could have been more and done more if I had that time to pursue what I truly loved and not some one-size-fits-all-lowest-common-denominator "education."

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Edit: One of the biggest problems I see in public schools which I've also seen in private, are the ill mannered, ill behaved children. Parents don't teach their children manners or how to listen to adults so the teachers end up with a class full of bratty children who won't listen to their parents much less their teachers.

You can thank the liberals for this. We're in the process of learning that "time-out" or "redirection" doesn't actually work for many young personalities.

Used to be that children who perhaps went without teachings of discipline at home would at least learn it once they were enrolled in the public school system. Not anymore. Now public grade school teachers are appalled to learn that some early grade schoolers aren't miniature, ignorant adults.

Texas is so misguided that criminal citations are being issued to children as young as 4 for "disorderly conduct". So apparently the masses have decided that criminalizing the misbehavior of a 4 year old and exposing the child to the criminal justice system causes less long-term harm than a good swat on the ass. Brilliant! The stupidity of the masses never ceases to amaze me.

Stay tuned. I guarantee you the chosen course will get much worse before it gets better. I've done the research and since Texas began removing corporal punishment in 1995 dropout rates and rates of incarceration amoung juveniles have both turned skyward.

So before you blame parents for the increase in "bratty children" take a moment to realize that once children begin school they're in the custody of public educators for more waking hours than they're in the custody of parents. Like it or not, choosing elementary education as a profession requires more than teaching academics. Grade school teachers have a duty to act "in loco parentis". If they had wanted to teach adults they should have chosen a different path.

As a parent, if "time out" and "redirection" prove ineffective there's no option to simply call a police officer and jettison the child. A parent is expected to obtain results. Why would anyone acting "in loco parentis" be held to a lessor standard?

[Arcanist]

Maybe they're bratty because they're institutionalized for 6-7 hours 5 days a week?

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe they're bratty because they're institutionalized for 6-7 hours 5 days a week?

I get your point but humans are pretty resilient. There's a balance that's possible. Teaching is not the same thing as training. Aside from my observations on discipline I've noticed that public schools (in Texas at least) don't really teach anymore so much as they train. I don't really expect my german shepherd to improvise and overcome, though she's perhaps better equipped than some children to do so.

Public education here in Texas has definitely taken a wrong turn and on many levels. So long as the tricks can be performed on cue, that's all that matters. It's pretty sad.

[Subgenius]

Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

-You can thank the liberals for this. -Texas is so misguided that criminal citations are being issued to children as young as 4 for "disorderly conduct". So apparently the masses have decided that criminalizing the misbehavior of a 4 year old and exposing the child to the criminal justice system causes less long-term harm than a good swat on the ass. Brilliant! The stupidity of the masses never ceases to amaze me.

Isn't Texas, other than Austin, pretty conservative and Republican? How is this the liberals fault when the state has been pretty solidly conservative pretty much forever? This is the same state that had all the crazy conservative controversies over textbooks.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Subgenius To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Isn't Texas, other than Austin, pretty conservative and Republican? How is this the liberals fault when the state has been pretty solidly conservative pretty much forever? This is the same state that had all the crazy conservative controversies over textbooks.

Liberalism is pervasive within academia. It's not difficult to understand why folks in training to be professional educators would be susceptible to adopting similar beliefs to those of their "mentors".

I have no ax to grind with liberals in general and consider myself neither liberal nor conservative. I'm in agreement with many "liberal" positions including those relating to gay marriage, abortion, etc. But when it comes to their ideas about child-rearing discipline, they've missed the boat.
Children have highly varied personalities. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Those of us charged with "mentoring" behave irresponsibly when we stubbornly adhere to fixed methodology regardless of efficacy. Additionally it is incredibly short-sighted to limit one's evaluation of consequences with regard to what can be considered as "harmful" or "abusive".
At present in Texas, the alternative to corporal punishment as a last resort is segregation from the core peer-group by way of "alternative discipline centers" and exposure to the criminal justice system. It seems nobody has bothered to consider whether having society communicate to a young child that "there's something wrong with you and you don't belong with the rest of your peers, i.e. you're a criminal" might be more harmful over the long-term than a firm swat on the ass.

That's the message these policies communicate and it's being confirmed by the rising dropout rates and rates of incarceration among juveniles here in Texas. We've implemented policies whereby we're systematically encouraging strong-willed children to become criminals.

The sad part is that the characteristics common to difficult children (risk-tolerance, high curiousity, non-conformity) are required for leadership and entreprenurial success.

[Arcanist]

Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I get your point but humans are pretty resilient. There's a balance that's possible. Teaching is not the same thing as training. Aside from my observations on discipline I've noticed that public schools (in Texas at least) don't really teach anymore so much as they train. I don't really expect my german shepherd to improvise and overcome, though she's perhaps better equipped than some children to do so. Public education here in Texas has definitely taken a wrong turn and on many levels. So long as the tricks can be performed on cue, that's all that matters. It's pretty sad.

What is one to do? There are so many entrenched interests that people are pretty much stuck using a horribly broken system. Sure, you might get a halfhearted feelgood change or three but it doesn't address the core issue, which as I see it, is that children shouldn't be institutionalized for 13 years.

Many people feel that today's youth aren't, to use their archaic expressions, "ready to enter the real world." Well, what does one expect when you insulate children from the "outside world" and thrust them into an artificial, "protected" one where they typically spend more time dealing with their wretched "peers" then doing any sort of learning.

[JustMel]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe they're bratty because they're institutionalized for 6-7 hours 5 days a week?

Pick a new war cry. Not everyone is damaged by public schools. There are kids that need the structure and those that don't. However, ill mannered children of 4 years old likely aren't in school so again your hypothesis fails. Kindergarten starts at 5 in most states. Ill mannered children come from homes where parents don't feel discipline is important and don't teach them about consequences for their actions.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by JustMel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ill mannered children come from homes where parents don't feel discipline is important and don't teach them about consequences for their actions.

What a beautiful example of ignorance, naivete, and circular reasoning. Children who behave well (while present at the public school) are proof that there's nothing wrong with the existing methodologies employed by public education while those who don't are only proof of poor parenting. You must be a genius and/or public educator.

---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 11:00 AM ----------

Here's a suggestion; Educate yourself on the subject matter prior to offering up opinion. To do so would be consistent with Lincoln's advice "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt".

[JustMel]

Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What a beautiful example of ignorance, naivete, and circular reasoning. Children who behave well (while present at the public school) are proof that there's nothing wrong with the existing methodologies employed by public education while those who don't are only proof of poor parenting. You must be a genius and/or public educator. ---------- Post added 04-30-2012 at 11:00 AM ---------- Here's a suggestion; Educate yourself on the subject matter prior to offering up opinion. To do so would be consistent with Lincoln's advice "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt".

Here's a thought, try knowing who you're attempting to condemn before opening your mouth. I'm not only a parent of well mannered children (11 of them), I'm a foster parent of well mannered children (more than 30), I am certified and teach parenting classes in two states, and I work with battered women and kids and provide pregnancy counseling for women who choose to place their children for adoption and those that choose to be a single parent.

Children who have ill manners are often that way simply because their parents do not teach them manners. If they are disrespectful to other parents, children, teachers, daycare workers, people in general and family members, etc it is most often because they are allowed to be disrespectful to their own parents. This is a fact. It's not likely you'll see a child who is disrespectful at home be respectful outside the home. Doubt that? Look to the juvenile court system which I also work in.

You see children in private schools who are disrespectful though it's not as prevalent as it could be, you see it in Montessori schools a lot more. I see it more in the homeschooled kids at places like Gateway than in public schools or that come from parents who homeschool without Gateway. I've had kids in all of the above and am married to the youngest of 13 children who all went to private, Catholic schools back when they still used a ruler to make children mind. Yes, let's beat it into them rather than making manners and good behavior the normal expectation of a child beginning at home. *eyeroll*

The difference between the children now and the children in the 70s and before is our parents expected decent manners and behavior. More parents now raise children to be "free spirits". Sorry if little Johnny is a jackass who can't behave and has no manners that is a parenting fail not a public school one. School is for teaching math, english, reading etc not for the lessons that should come from parents.

[Aronnax]

	Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What a beautiful example of ignorance, naivete, and circular reasoning. Children who behave well (while present at the public school) are proof that there's nothing wrong with the existing methodologies employed by public education while those who don't are only proof of poor parenting. You must be a genius and/or public educator.

So if schools are responsible for teaching children how to behave as well as literacy and math, what exactly is the parent's responsibility?

[Arcanist]

@JustMel

Just so we're clear: Do you support a public system of education that damages certain subsets of children?