[CrossReference]

I had this argument with a professor of mine earlier today. I believe that art is a very logical and rational process, because the artist accesses information they have learned about what makes art successful (think principals of design) and then utilizes them to put across a certain message. From start to finish, it is an exercise in decision making, which I believe puts it in the category of logical thinking. Opinions? Is art logical or does it burst forth from a purely creative place?

[Vulture]

it can be either imo.

i remember reading a story a while back of some highschool kid who asked a similar question to a bunch of famous writers at the time, and their opinion was a bit split as well. there was a general theme however, where they replied that the "best" works come from some intuitive or creative place... the question i think was if the writers set out initially to "create" archetypes and symbolism from the get go, or if they just appear on their own through the writing process.

shit, i forget the name of the kid who wrote it, and can't find it on google. i'm hoping someone knows what i'm talking about and links it here, as they are a good read.

[Apophenia]

I don't really know how to define logic, so I'm just speaking from a vague definition.

Everything rational can be made to seem irrational with enough information, and the inverse is also true. For example, I can name all the bones in the human body and you might find that a logical way to quantify bones. But if I gave a different name for every individual cell in a body, the "logical way" of quantifying via individually named cells would lose meaning and seem chaotic.

An artist can express something through their art with any conceivable or inconceivable logic (as described above). And it doesn't have to be in order, or serve a purpose (as logic may seek to).

Art is often about pulling together selected potions of one's own cognitive noise (perception) and translating it into a limiting medium (ie paint).

So, if nature is logical, art is logical; art is a product of nature.

As for technique and process...yes, I think there may be some decision making, but again, art is often a process of perception-refining. An artist doesn't have to decide if they can perceive and express with minimal rational-interference. I'd guess that the best artists do both, but do more of the latter.

But yeah, it's a fine line...could go either way, especially depending on the artist.

I'd also say that the concept of logic is an artistic creation.

[CrossReference]

	Originally Posted by Apophenia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd also say that the concept of logic is an artistic creation.

That's interesting....could you expand on that?

I guess my problem with some people's perception of art and artists is that their work comes from this mysterious place of pure creativity, which takes out a lot of the the intellectual aspects of art. It bothers me when people say, "Oh, wow, that's great. I could never do something like that" because they could, but it requires work. Assuming that artists and creative people are somehow born with the ability to create great works somewhat cheapens the creative process.

[Apophenia]

I agree, art is mystified. But science is worshipped. They're the same, it's just that science is the section of art that's proven relatively reliable for human purposes.

And if that doesn't explain it, if you give me your definition of logic, I will explain using your definition if I can.

[kaer]

There's a certain logic, art can be expressed with mathematics.


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[Sethis]

	Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is art logical or does it burst forth from a purely creative place?

Everything is logical. But creating art can be based on some premade patterns or abstract thnking. When it's the first it may often seem unoriginal or as if you're trying too hard. It's better if you just go with the flow and feel it rather than think it.

	Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I could never do something like that" because they could, but it requires work.

It is a mixture of talent and work. You certainly do need to learn how to shape that raw inspiration into something artistic. Some people just can't do something like that because they cannot experience a piece of art the same way an artist does.

	Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I could never do something like that" because they could, but it requires work. Assuming that artists and creative people are somehow born with the ability to create great works somewhat cheapens the creative process.

I doubt that.

[deconspire]

I think if you are thinking about art from a purely logical/rational standpoint, then you are better off being a critic than an artist.

[CrossReference]

	Originally Posted by deconspire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think if you are thinking about art from a purely logical/rational standpoint, then you are better off being a critic than an artist.

I'm considering the logical aspects of it, in no way am I insinuating that it is pure logical thinking or dismissing the creative intuition. Perhaps because I'm more rationally inclined, I find that part more interesting. Is logical descision making and construction of information not a key part of creating an effective piece?

[sentientbeing]

Art and Design are two very different subjects. Art belongs is based on aesthetics and free association, Design is about functionality and principles. If you refer to Art in the sense of "The Art of Computer Programming", a skill that must be learned through experience, it makes sense to base it on logic. Some visual arts, music, paintings also follow mathematical models but most are made out of free association and aesthetic judgement.

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I had this argument with a professor of mine earlier today. I believe that art is a very logical and rational process, because the artist accesses information they have learned about what makes art successful (think principals of design) and then utilizes them to put across a certain message. From start to finish, it is an exercise in decision making, which I believe puts it in the category of logical thinking. Opinions? Is art logical or does it burst forth from a purely creative place?

Art is about evoking emotion. So, in that sense, it isn't logical at all, but rather emotional. Now, art that must be functional (i.e. architecture) will have a rational component to make it functional, but the art itself is emotional. (If you want to see me get emotional, play Ray Charles' rendition of "America the Beautiful"... )

Now, there are fundamentals to art which can be rationally understood, but the problem with the fundamentals is that as the artist understands himself and the culture around you and how to evoke emotions, the artist begin to bend and even break the fundamental rules in order to create the most fantastic art.

I relate to music most of all the arts, and the truly artistic musician will constantly break the rules in the interest of art. I think of Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin most often in that respect, as they constantly went off the reservation and made music that was absolutely the most emotional experience that one can have. I'm sure the same is true with all of the great musicians (and artists. See Picaso.)

[deconspire]

	Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm considering the logical aspects of it, in no way am I insinuating that it is pure logical thinking or dismissing the creative intuition. Perhaps because I'm more rationally inclined, I find that part more interesting. Is logical decision making and construction of information not a key part of creating an effective piece?

I'm not banging your view at all. I agree. But you don't create thinking, "this is how I should logically paint this" or whatever. You already have that shit in your head, your expression is just the perception of the aggregated artistic knowledge you have, conceptualized in your own "logical" way.

btw OP...love that av.

[davai]

Art can be logical and precise. Precise in the way that it affects emotionality according to the level of being of the person who views it. This is what is known in some circles as objective art. Mathematical, ordered. Producing the same impression on all people of that same level. Subjective art is just that, it doesn't have to be logical.

Objective - Art for a higher purpose, transmission of knowledge/wisdom.
Subjective - Vomit, 'diary' art that makes up 99.9 % of all art.

[SirJamesIII]

Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I had this argument with a professor of mine earlier today. I believe that art is a very logical and rational process, because the artist accesses information they have learned about what makes art successful (think principals of design) and then utilizes them to put across a certain message. From start to finish, it is an exercise in decision making, which I believe puts it in the category of logical thinking. Opinions? Is art logical or does it burst forth from a purely creative place?

It is always rational (at least according to how I define rational) and sometimes logical.

[deconspire]

Oh hey, btw...what was your professor's argument?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I had this argument with a professor of mine earlier today. I believe that art is a very logical and rational process, because the artist accesses information they have learned about what makes art successful (think principals of design) and then utilizes them to put across a certain message. From start to finish, it is an exercise in decision making, which I believe puts it in the category of logical thinking. Opinions? Is art logical or does it burst forth from a purely creative place?

1) Logic is a formal system. How formal? Extremely formal. Formal to the point where if someone says "I am logical", you may snicker at them, because their claim is ridiculous. Logic is formal to the point where every bit of your postulation and argument has been accounted for and examined so rigorously, a human could not make any decisions utilizing pure logic.

2) Rationality is the exercise of reason. Reason and logic are not synonymous. Logic is often a tool of reason, but reason includes the ability for intuitive input. You use reason to find a sense of things, to determine which facts you accept or reject, and to establish or change existing behaviors. Inherent in reason is finding satisficability and optimization, finding solutions to problems which are 'good enough' or 'the best'.

3) Aesthetics is a philosophy dealing with the sensory tastes of a culture. Decisions and judgements are made when creating art that take aesthetics into account. Since art is created for public consumption, an economic decision has to be made "Will people part with their money for my art?"

So now to answer your questions:

Is art logical?

No, and stop using that word. When people claim to be logical, I start asking them questions about logic. They're unable to answer and make themselves look like idiots.

Is there reasoning inherent in the creation of art?

Yes. Aesthetics may be argued to be a product of culture, but it constitutes a system of observations and economic decisions. The artist is trying to make quality based artistic decisions given a task. Ergo: reason.

[CrossReference]

	Originally Posted by deconspire To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh hey, btw...what was your professor's argument?

He does not teach art but has a heavy interest in it, and he believed that art was completely separated from the realm of reason. Art was very mystifying to him and he was initially disappointed when I began pointing out the intellectual and sometimes even mathematical practices used in art, as he believed that intuition, inspiration, and creativity were all that was needed (and sometimes you don't need much more than that, but only if the artwork is deeply personal and emotional, not the kind of artwork I aspire to). He eventually reconciled that art required a healthy dose of both creative intuition and a structured, rational thinking process

---------- Post added 03-27-2012 at 04:41 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Since art is created for public consumption, an economic decision has to be made "Will people part with their money for my art?"

That's a rather broad generalization. True, most artists have become commercial, but there are some artists who are doing it purely for the craft and have no intention of selling. Art may not be their source of income, but they're still creating and are still artists, at least by my definition.

Also, in my knowledge of successful fine artists, they are selling works because the public or a small part of the public likes their pieces. Not because the artist is pandering specifically to whatever the popular trend is or what will "sell"

[zibber]

Logic is a different human invention that overlaps with art sometimes.

[deconspire]

	Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Since art is created for public consumption, an economic decision has to be made "Will people part with their money for my art?" Yes. Aesthetics may be argued to be a product of culture, but it constitutes a system of observations and economic decisions. The artist is trying to make quality based artistic decisions given a task. Ergo: reason.

Are you saying that artists purposely create art with economic interest in mind? Because I don't agree. At all. Perhaps some forms (commercial art/architecture), but the guy consumed with artistic fire who's painting in his basement is not thinking, "Hmm...I think I'll add some red here because that will REALLY make those wallets come out".

Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

He does not teach art but has a heavy interest in it, and he believed that art was completely separated from the realm of reason. Art was very mystifying to him and he was initially disappointed when I began pointing out the intellectual and sometimes even mathematical practices used in art, as he believed that intuition, inspiration, and creativity were all that was needed (and sometimes you don't need much more than that, but only if the artwork is deeply personal and emotional, not the kind of artwork I aspire to). He eventually reconciled that art required a healthy dose of both creative intuition and a structured, rational thinking process.

Oh yeah, he was absolutely wrong. Lots of ingredients to bake the cake. Nice one.

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Logic is a different human invention that overlaps with art sometimes.

Brilliant observation.
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See posts #3, #7, #11,#12, #13, #16.

[Daoist]

How about...is logic based in art?

	Originally Posted by Daoist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, obviously knowledge of an event has to come after, and be caused by that event. But not all things that are caused by other things count as "knowledge," or information. The consequence has to occur within a structure (i.e. the human brain) that is capable of imagining counterfactuals. So I'd have to say that knowledge, at the very least, comes from imagination.

So this is a connection between art <--> lucid dreaming, for instance <--> cognitive function.

[Distance]

I see no reason why you can't apply physics or economics concepts to art, with the reverse holding true. They're all concepts whether symbolised in accepted terms/axioms or not.

So, in effect CrossReference, you're both right and wrong.

[Winston]

How beautiful something is to you is based on your emotions. However you justify its beauty, your reasoning will be based on the way you feel. Truth and art aren't closely related at all. You use logic to seek truth.

Just because you make decisions while creating art doesn't mean those decisions are either right or wrong. They are neither, and it's irrelevant. All that matters is the eye of the beholder.

[stasis]

	Originally Posted by CrossReference To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is art based in logic?

What an ugly thought.

[Apophenia]

	Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Logic is formal to the point where every bit of your postulation and argument has been accounted for and examined so rigorously, a human could not make any decisions utilizing pure logic.

So logic does not exist any more than the human soul does. It's a creation existing entirely in the thoughts and postulations of humans.

[BlackOp]

Great art redefines logic...just when you think you've "seen it all"..someone comes out of nowhere and "redirects" you. It should be a counterweight to what already is.....deconstruction and rebuild. The masters "time stamp" cultural shifts unconsciously...the thinkers put this into boxes...after the fact. It's why logical art fails..and 99.99% of art students suck. They're tracing outlines..and missing the point. They think they can buy their way into the process....there is no way to harness a definition...like putting a saddle on a wild stallion.