[qrav]

The definition of a mental illness:

Mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Just as diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas, mental illnesses are medical conditions that often result in a diminished capacity for coping with the ordinary demands of life. -The National Alliance of mental illness, whoever they are


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This definition, of which I have seen many variations, is vague. Frustratingly vague.

Here's a fun fact! Over their lifetime, half of you (46.4%) will have one. But don't worry (that's counterproductive to our goal here), most of them will only last a year or so. Here are more fun facts:


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I would seriously suggest reading this.

Anyway, most of you can tell I'm a little upset about this. I'm sorry I let it show, but let me make it up to you.

You all do and will continue to think what you will about mental illness. That is fine, and good, and as it should be. But lets continue to think for ourselves and take a look at those civilization-leveling statistics from above.

I don't believe them. Mental illness, along with physical pain, are some of the final frontiers in medicine. You don't need a medical degree or even to understand any science, really, to understand why this is true. If an eager, drug seeking individual is clever enough, he/she may decide to look up the diagnostic methods used to help people with these problems. Of course they shall be delighted when they find out that the best way to diagnose such issues is, in fact, through patient interview.

The patient is supposed to look inside of themselves and correctly describe their symptoms to a medical professional in an unbiased and accurate way. Tell me, folks, how many people do you know who are even capable of describing to you the day before yesterday? Some would argue that the patient is the one with the best perspective on their emotions and abilities, but I would beg to differ.

First, the paradigm was created backwards, and is still backwards today. The Effects mediated by the first SSRI (selective seratonin reuptake inhibitor) discovered on signals in the brain were found by accident. A drug was found that lowered anxiety and increased happiness. While depression had long been an illness, anxiety became one, simply because they found a pill to treat it. That is not the way treatments to illness have been found for nearly every other condition.

The paradigm remains backwards. Psychiatrists, who spend less and less time with their patients, base their diagnosis off of conditions the patient tells them about. I was under the impression that diagnosing an illness was best left to those with a neutral perspective, like in the case of a doctor who believes he is sick visiting a colleague to have his suspicions verified. With mental illness (in all but severe cases), it is the patient who diagnosis him/herself, and the doctor who writes a script. This doesn't seem logical.

I believe that our culture has become one which associates effort with pain, and that our populace have become (on the whole, mind) mentally weaker. We beg for a chemical fix, and they deliver.

But I am intensely interested in what others have to say on this issue.

So what do you think?

[spect]

are you using more specific criteria to judge mental strength/weakness with?

in a historical context, modern society is rapidly changing. the psychological stressors are not the ones dealt with previously.

[DeaconSyre]

I think you have an overly negative view of psychology. It's still a new science and only recently got some good tech behind it (fmri, mri, etc.). So, expect diagnostic methods to change radically in the next 10-15 years.

Also, just as a matter of semantics, these are the current frontiers of medicine not the final.

[spect]

i think he brings up a few valid points though, especially the medical industry reliance on pharmacology to deal with psychological factors. costs are high with not a lot of funding to cover things, too many people cant afford it. and with a down economy and disgustingly bad management of our government programs, especially being so far in debt, that trend will likely continue. its much easier and cheaper to prescribe a pill than therapy, and i bet if you privately ask therapists (who imho are underpaid compared to other medical doctors) they just might have the same complaints. this could also mean the symptoms of having a mental illness are treated but the underlying cause is never cured.

but self medication isnt exactly a secret, from the volunteer work there really is a high incidence ive seen from abuse survivors with substance abuse. and it goes way beyond simple drinking problems. which actually goes back to my previous point about modern society in a historical context. wasnt too many generations ago that alcohol and tobacco were luxury items beyond the ability of populations majority to afford them. now, how many people get a drink after work to relieve stress? how many of them loosen up after a drink or two to relieve anxiety in socializing? taken a step further with even more advanced and targeted substances, how likely are they NOT to be used and abused?

[DeaconSyre]

Oh, god yeah! Once I started looking into what we know of how the brain actually works I was kinda disgusted and frightened by psychological medications. The fact that they work at all amazes me. It seems so primitive and dangerous.

[spect]

things like ssri's dont work directly to correct the problem, they increase serotonin levels by inhibiting the absorption of what already exists. so there's more of it readily available instead of having a med that stimulates more production or additional raw materials to use for production. so if the levels are too low for even normal needs to begin with, ssri's can only help a little bit...

or thats my understanding of it... because on the opposite end of the problem, what if ssri's saturate serotonin levels too much that leads to atrophy of production?

it is a bit scary.

[TheStranger]

Not to mention, even if the general public were to become educated in psychiatry (as well as the biological branch of the field, although it's controversial) and perceive such illnesses through a scientific lens, I doubt the negative perspectives would be reduced across the board. The brain doesn't seem to receive the same privilege of sympathy as does the body.

Even when physiological disorders are proven to be the source of psychosis for particular individuals, those individuals are still noted as "strange" even after post-treatment, and the subsequent return to lucidity, the latter meaning nothing to extraneous eyes.

It's one of the reasons why I've attempted to hold it together, despite the mounting cacophony of dark thoughts. That precocious illness should have been obvious to me since the beginning (obviously, precocious illness).

[lifesight]

-I often joked with a friend that we all have some sort of mental illness and it differs by intensity or time.

-Sometimes some people who think they have a sort of mental illness will most likely start to believe so and behave as if they do, thus the symptoms will most likely increase.

-I know that there are therapist who would not spend time with their patients and most likely directly put them on pills, Though not all therapists are this way and i don't think it functions this way.
When i met my psychologist, i already read about what i thought i might have, did lots of researches about it and about good coping mechanisms. The first thing my psychologist said to me is that I am in no state to diagnosis myself and i should stop focusing on finding out what is wrong with me through researches and leave that to her to judge.

[spect]

	Originally Posted by lifesight To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	..When i met my psychologist, i already read about what i thought i might have, did lots of researches about it and about good coping mechanisms. The first thing my psychologist said to me is that I am in no state to diagnosis myself and i should stop focusing on finding out what is wrong with me through researches and leave that to her to judge.

did she agree with your diagnosis?

[zibber]

What is and isn't classified as "disorder" is heavily culturally dependent, and social tension can stimulate development of mental problems. Besides this, big pharma has a lot of influence in this world we made for ourselves.

[TheStranger]

Well, I believe a diagnosis for schizotypal is dependent on whether or not certain ill-reasoned beliefs are aligned properly with culture or subculture norms (which would make the diagnosis culturally dependent). If they are aligned, a disorder is not perceived, but if they are inconsistent with some semblance of normality, they may be considered as potential signs of schizotypal or another related disorder.

	When i met my psychologist, i already read about what i thought i might have, did lots of researches about it and about good coping mechanisms. The first thing my psychologist said to me is that I am in no state to diagnosis myself and i should stop focusing on finding out what is wrong with me through researches and leave that to her to judge.

Apparently, my persuasion abilities were sufficient enough for me at the time to convince my psychiatrist that the majority of my knowledge of psychiatric medications was "extremely accurate" (his words, not mine). Turns out, convincing your shrink that you're slightly crazy isn't a positive thing.

[spect]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is and isn't classified as "disorder" is heavily culturally dependent..

but do you consider dsm4 to be heavily culturally dependant? i dont, maybe more towards judging countries to a higher range of standards of living. but i do think influences of classification is more from individual doctors through its application.

[AnotherAvatar]

You would be surprised how many problems go away when people aren't allowed to rationalize or justify their problems, shift blame etc.

My son came to me years ago, stating that many of his friends were diagnosed with ADD and on meds, so he pondered if he might be afflicted as well.

I suggested we cut all sugar and carbs from his diet, sports after school, treadmills and chores on the weekend, so we could knock down his hyperactivity and lack of focus.

The subject never came up again.


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[TheStranger]

	Originally Posted by spect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	but do you consider dsm4 to be heavily culturally dependant? i dont, maybe more towards judging countries to a higher range of standards of living. but i do think influences of classification is more from individual doctors through its application.

Some of the diagnostic criterion for schizo disorders are partially whether or not the behavior or thoughts of an individual are somewhat consistent with cultural (or subculture) norms. If they aren't, that is a potential warning sign (and lack of insight, as well).

[yourascrub]

While I'm not the type of person who believes that all shrinks are trying to push drugs on you, are bought out by big pharma and who have a diagnosis for every human emotion, I do think that mental illness has become seriously overestimated.

I was personally prescribed an SSRI, which I got after just one visit to a doctor, telling her that I was feeling depressed and anxious. Now, because there is little to no recreational value to SSRI's it's unlikely people would lie about their symptoms in order to get them. The same cannot be said for mood stabilizers prescribed for bipolar disorder; benzos prescribed for severe anxiety and panic disorders; and hypnotic sedatives for sleep. This is just to mention those who would purposely decieve the doctor in order to get a script filled.

Another group of people that are possibly being taken advantage of, or misinformed, are those who cannot relate their feelings and emotions to a doctor or therapist. The OP mentioned this,

	Some would argue that the patient is the one with the best perspective on their emotions and abilities, but I would beg to differ.

, and I would agree. How many people can honestly, accurately describe "anxiety"? And if one has an anxiety disorder, what is the baseline to which this person has surpassed? It just begs the question; What is normal?

The one thing I look at to decipher between actual, treatable illness and drug pedaling is the statistics on the amount of people prescibed the medications.

	From 1988–1994 through 2005–2008, the rate of antidepressant use in the United States among all ages increased nearly 400%

(CDC, Oct 2011) Now does this mean that we have all always been depressed and that four times the amount of people are discovering this or is it that more people are being made to fit the symptoms. I believe it's the latter. When we look at cultural differences in the last twenty years, it's easy to see that big pharma has gotten bigger and more influential in the diagnostic aspect of psychology. The definitions of the disorders in the DSM have become more "precise" but still remain unbelievably vague and hardly discern between acute and chronic mental illness. Another aspect is the advertising that companies flood the media with. The vague diagnostic criteria isn't even applicable here; people hear "don't feel like you used to?" and immediately acknowledge that they could feel better without inferring as to what better means. There are TV commercials, billboards, radio ads and pop culture references to all sorts of drugs that produce a multitude of desirable effects. We all know what Xanax does, we all know what Ambien does and finding out what to tell your doctor in order to get prescribed these drugs is provided to you by the voice of an actor in an easy to remember format.

[spect]

	Originally Posted by TheStranger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some of the diagnostic criterion for schizo disorders are partially whether or not the behavior or thoughts of an individual are somewhat consistent with cultural (or subculture) norms. If they aren't, that is a potential warning sign (and lack of insight, as well).

but taken by itself doesnt mean anything, which is why its part of an overall longer list of criteria that has to be sufficiently fulfilled for diagnosis. and that one's not culturally influenced specific to a culture, its comparative to *any* culture since its the impairment of socializing and relationships that is part of the disorder.

[psykhe]

	Originally Posted by qrav To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Mental illness, along with physical pain, are some of the final frontiers in medicine.

We're talking about brain chemistry and not just endorphins here, aren't we?

	Originally Posted by qrav To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You don't need a medical degree or even to understand any science, really, to understand why this is true. If an eager, drug seeking individual is clever enough, he/she may decide to look up the diagnostic methods used to help people with these problems. Of course they shall be delighted when they find out that the best way to diagnose such issues is, in fact, through patient interview.

Even psychoanalyst and psychiatrist, often than not, argue with each other about certain diagnosis over a case. Believe me, there's more than meets the eye. Our brain is a complex structure, you don't want to end up talking all by yourself, do you?

	Originally Posted by qrav To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So what do you think?

Meh.

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What is and isn't classified as "disorder" is heavily culturally dependent, and social tension can stimulate development of mental problems. Besides this, big pharma has a lot of influence in this world we made for ourselves.

I'm afraid I have to refute that. One of the axes of DSM is environmental factors. Therefore, for an "illness" to be classified as a disorder, it should met the above....has to be prevalent from culture to culture. >.>

Just to make it clear, seeing a psychologist doesn't mean you are "damaged". Having a social anxiety (not the severe one of course) doesn't mean you have a "mental illness". Fuck the misconception.

[TheStranger]

	Originally Posted by spect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	but taken by itself doesnt mean anything, which is why its part of an overall longer list of criteria that has to be sufficiently fulfilled for diagnosis. and that one's not culturally influenced specific to a culture, its comparative to *any* culture since its the impairment of socializing and relationships that is part of the disorder.

True, the criterion for diagnosis is cosmopolitan (taking in all cultures, worldly). And, it is more of a deliberate view from the lens of other cultures partially for the reasons you mentioned.

[spect]

	Originally Posted by TheStranger To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	True, the criterion for diagnosis is cosmopolitan (taking in all cultures, worldly). And, it is more of a deliberate view from the lens of other cultures partially for the reasons you mentioned.

maybe im not getting that, so guess i should ask... what about the inability to understand and adapt to ANY social norms and values? regardless of the culture, ANY of them in ANY culture?

like walking about in a town square, pulling their pants down and start eating their own excrement. standing on top of a statue horse and openly masturbating. running up to people and randomly punching them in the face, kicking them when they are down and running up to the next person to do the same... these things dont strike me as someone being mentally stable
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[TheStranger]

Originally Posted by spect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

maybe im not getting that, so guess i should ask... what about the inability to understand and adapt to ANY social norms and values? regardless of the culture, ANY of them in ANY culture? like walking about in a town square, pulling their pants down and start eating their own excrement. standing on top of a statue horse and openly masturbating. running up to people and randomly punching them in the face, kicking them when they are down and running up to the next person to do the same... these things dont strike me as someone being mentally stable To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well yeah, there's that.

[spect]

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i know that was an extreme example, but it was supposed to be about the impairment of ability to cope with social things, not just ones that are specific to a certain culture where the influence or rules can vary quite a bit from one to the other. that can be argued against on pure logical terms of complete freedom of life and lifestyle, but we are talking about the impairment of someone to function with a socially healthy lifestyle... and yes, i completely agree thats often subjective.

[HDP92373]

Don't look in, look out. Being considerate and helpful towards others takes the mind off of yourself. A lot of my problems started to dissolve when I stopped looking inward. I helped people that I knew and listened to what they were going through. I stayed busy cleaning and taking care of neglected responsibilities. After a while I found that I wasn't upset anymore and had nothing to complain about

[Sk8ordude]

I think that modern psychiatry is by and large a system of covering up the symptoms instead of actually treating disorders. While brain chemistry is a symptom of a lot of mental illness, much of that comes from psychological thought habits. Thinking through your problems with psychotherapy is far more likely to improve your baseline, however most disorders IMO stem from subconscious sources.

Also IMO the most effective tools for getting the subconscious mind to the surface is with tryptimine analogs. I think that the most effective treatment for a variety of mental illness' is a combination of psychotherapy and tryptimines into weekly or monthly sessions. This is due to the specific areas of the brain that temporarily go quiet, mostly these areas serve as the barriors for the conscious and subconscious minds.

Research has shown the incredible potential of psychedelics in the cure of mental illness, however a couple weekly sessions is far less profitable then a lifetime dependency on brain regulating drugs and the psychiatric middle men who they have to go through.

[UKsplendid]

I once read an interesting article about actors pretending to be schizophrenic and doctors not being able to tell.
They also retried with a different test, doctors would be aware of this test and have to tell which half of a group was real and which was actors. They bluffed the doctors and sent all actors, the doctors diagnosed half as genuine.

There was another section about someone making bad art on purpose and getting rave reviews. Lol. Lol all over place.

Yes I think there's a huge inflation of people wanting to be special or excused in some way and definitely an over focus academically regarding psychological definition of all things. Read an article about the 20's being investigated as a new official human aging period recently, in the way teenage years are considered a separate period between adult and child this guy was making a case that the 20's are the 4th stage, between adult and teenage! Kill me, kill me now.

[Lydia]

	Originally Posted by UKsplendid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Read an article about the 20's being investigated as a new official human aging period recently, in the way teenage years are considered a separate period between adult and child this guy was making a case that the 20's are the 4th stage, between adult and teenage! Kill me, kill me now.

One could argue that childhood and adolescence are also fairly new inventions. Not long ago children were working in factories and boys and girls (mostly girls) were getting married at 12, 13, 14 years old and starting their own families (and this is still the norm in some places). It only makes sense that as our culture continues to evolve into one with increasingly more leisure time that we extend the period of human growth to match.

I mean really, have you seen a college student lately? Those people are not adults. No offense but they just aren't. Anyway, the prefrontal/frontal lobes are not fully developed until about age 24. The field I study, child and adolescent health, has agreed that adolescence ends at age 24 for this reason.
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---------- Post added 03-13-2012 at 11:59 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Sk8ordude To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think that modern psychiatry is by and large a system of covering up the symptoms instead of actually treating disorders. While brain chemistry is a symptom of a lot of mental illness, much of that comes from psychological thought habits. Thinking through your problems with psychotherapy is far more likely to improve your baseline, however most disorders IMO stem from subconscious sources.

I agree completely, and wish that this idea were more widely considered. Anyway, I think you put it really well. Thanks.