[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	yeah...I hope she chooses better the next time. If she doesn't it won't be his fault. How's that?

Consistent at least. Same logic applies to my wife I guess. I'm a large guy, much stronger and also arrogant. I supposed it's just my dumb luck she's never treated me the way the woman in the video treats Shawn.

Little did I know she would be justified in doing so just because I have the potentialto physically impose my own will over hers.


I guess that's why everyone should remember to thank the Lord for unrecognized blessings.

---------- Post added 03-12-2012 at 02:11 PM ----------

So men, take this as a lesson. If you don't wish to be subjected to justifiable bullying by your wife make sure to marry someone larger and stronger than you.

[Sinequanon]

	Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So would you say she was justified in grabbing it from him if it's hers? After all he seemed to concede by asking where the f%$$# his was then.

Let's concede that it was hers and she grabbed it from him. If the TV is his, does he have the right to seize that property?

[Clueless]

That would've substantially reduced the viable candidates for me, glad I didn't know about it on the front end.

[Shoshana]

Originally Posted by Clueless To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Consistent at least. Same logic applies to my wife I guess. I'm a large guy, much stronger and also arrogant. I supposed it's just my dumb luck she's never treated me the way the woman in the video treats Shawn. Little did I know she would be justified in doing so just because I have the potentialto physically impose my own will over hers. I guess that's why everyone should remember to thank the Lord for unrecognized blessings. ---------- Post added 03-12-2012 at 02:11 PM ---------- So men, take this as a lesson. If you don't wish to be subjected to justifiable bullying by your wife make sure to marry someone larger and stronger than you.

It's not the potential. It's the actual doing. Not every man who is big and muscular is a nasty brute. I think this one in the video is, and I don't think it's in reaction to her. I think he's like that, has been like that, will be like that with the next woman.

I still don't know why you keep turning this around and making it about her. Jeez...I think you're just about the only one who thinks she's the abuser, and here I was scolding everyone else in reaction to you.

---------- Post added 03-12-2012 at 03:31 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Sinequanon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Let's concede that it was hers and she grabbed it from him. If the TV is his, does he have the right to seize that property?

We need a lawyer on that. Personal opinion doesn't count. In any case, if it was his, he presumably would've arranged it beforehand so that it could be unplugged and packed up.

[Sinequanon]

	Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We need a lawyer on that. Personal opinion doesn't count. In any case, if it was his, he presumably would've arranged it beforehand so that it could be unplugged and packed up.

We don't need a lawyer. I'm asking your opinion. You appear to be arguing that the controller he had was hers. She seized the property back from him. The male then counters "The TV is mine," and goes to take it. Should he be able to take it?

I would imagine if it was his, presumably he'd be there that day to collect his belongings, which is exactly what the video shows.

[Shoshana]

Originally Posted by Imperator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"fine, whatever, take the TV, the Playstation, the controller, and whatever else you want. Just hurry up and get out". Move to the side and out of his LOS (plenty of room to her right to exit peaceably), grab the kids, exit the room. If he didn't let me leave, then I'd kick his ass. I've dealt with habitual bullies in much the same way. I've found they feed on reactions, as a means to continue justifying their idiocy. If they verbally insult me, I laugh at their jokes. They want me to take offense, feel bad, get mad. I laugh, it takes all the fun out of their bullying, and eventually they stop. Physically, I do the same thing. They want to justify a fight, they want to goad me into it. I don't let them. If they're really aggressive, if physical confrontation is unavoidable by any other means, I end them.

Ok---there's no way she could kick his ass. But, knowing how I handle myself, I wouldn't have acted the way she did. Unless advised as a means to an end. And yeah, if it means proving long term domestic abuse, I'd be THAT willing to do it.

I happen to taller than her and for that reason and maybe because of the way I carry myself, I don't think any man would attack me in that way. I think her size definitely plays a part here, even if it's subtle.

---------- Post added 03-12-2012 at 03:47 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Sinequanon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We don't need a lawyer. I'm asking your opinion. You appear to be arguing that the controller he had was hers. She seized the property back from him. The male then counters "The TV is mine," and goes to take it. Should he be able to take it? I would imagine if it was his, presumably he'd be there that day to collect his belongings, which is exactly what the video shows.

She appears to have strong reasons for not letting him take that tv set. That has to be answered first. If they were married, how exactly is it HIS tv set?

The question of shared property is too complicated for mere opinion.

[Sinequanon]

	Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	She appears to have strong reasons for not letting him take that tv set. That has to be answered first. If they were married, how exactly is it HIS tv set? The question of shared property is too complicated for mere opinion.

How is the Playstation (or whatever she's claiming is hers) hers, then?

[Shoshana]

	Originally Posted by Sinequanon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How is the Playstation (or whatever she's claiming is hers) hers, then?

either shared property to be settled or there were two of them and he was going after the wrong one. It sounded like it could've been the case. At that point you could argue he was going after whatever he could to escalate the situation.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's not the potential. It's the actual doing. Not every man who is big and muscular is a nasty brute. I think this one in the video is, and I don't think it's in reaction to her. I think he's like that, has been like that, will be like that with the next woman. I still don't know why you keep turning this around and making it about her. Jeez...I think you're just about the only one who thinks she's the abuser, and here I was scolding everyone else in reaction to you.

What you keep failing to understand is that I don't think SHE'S the abuser.

I think that the video clearly demonstrates that they BOTH are abusers, at least during the span of the video itself and only that his physical abuse resulted in her weeping.

I couldn't determine that either party ultimately was successful in achieving the individually desired end result. It appeared as though she wanted him to leave and take nothing (didn't happen)
While if forced to leave he wanted to take certain belongings which he felt were his (TV, HIS playstation) Again, we can't determine the end result.

If the end result was that he left with none of his belongings, or that this tape was successfully used to deprive him of belongings or child visitation, etc. I'd say she ultimately imposed her will, which is clearly what she intended to do.

[Sinequanon]

	Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	either shared property to be settled or there were two of them and he was going after the wrong one. It sounded like it could've been the case. At that point you could argue he was going after whatever he could to escalate the situation.

But you're arguing in circles. Earlier in the thread, you said he was in HER house, destroying HER property.

Those are assumptions you've pulled out of nowhere. What we do know is she asserts that some particular thing (a controller, a playstation, it's unclear) is hers. He says something to the effect of "Where's mine, then?" (which does imply there is more than one), and then says that the TV is his.

So do SHE and HE have individual property, or do THEY have community property? It cannot possibly be both at the same time, yet you've argued both. It's kind of like arguing with a goldfish.

[Imperator]

	Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok---there's no way she could kick his ass.

Which is why deciding to go to fisticuffs was a dumb move on her part.

	I happen to taller than her and for that reason and maybe because of the way I carry myself, I don't think any man would attack me in that way. I think her size definitely plays a part here, even if it's subtle.

Watch out for us short people, we do things to make up the difference (like studying martial arts) and have a keen insight for tactically looking at a situation.

The bottom line is this for me:
If I am in her position, and I feel he is not letting me leave, I feel he will not back down from getting physical, I am afraid for my safety or the safety of my children, and I know I have no chance to beat him in a "fair" fight,

then I am kicking him in the nuts and scratching his eyes out, I am biting his nose off, breaking whatever bones I can, throwing him through the TV, finding a weapon, etc....

before getting the hell out of Dodge with my kids.

In other words, her actions do not come off to me as someone who feels their last recourse is a physical confrontation against a larger opponent, where she feels afraid for her safety.

They come off as confrontational, antagonistic, and more than willing to meet violence with violence. I don't exactly have a lot of sympathy for her as a result.

I ask myself if this is going through her mind, and then reach the conclusion her actions were not very responsible as an adult, and as a mother.

Is that a fair, evidence-based, rationally sound opinion?

[Social Torture]

Originally Posted by Imperator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think he's the bigger asshole. I'd still reserve quite a few harsh words for her. Nothing I've seen presented really makes much sense in defense of her. 1. If she recorded it, she staged this with her kids present, which is abhorrent to even think about. 2. She should have said "fine take it, I don't want to fight in front of the kids" and mollified the situation. Instead she flipped from "take whatever you want" to "that's mine" in about a second. 3. She should not have engaged him violently when she saw he was being a violent dick. That's not what adults do. They don't hit back and defend it with "he started it". That's what third graders do. 4. If she's not in control of any of her actions, and her actions are all consequent to his, she has no business being a mother. She's obviously not responsible for her own behavior, and someone who isn't responsible for their own behavior has no business raising kids. 5. I think the things she said, and did (like moving to the left to protect the TV, draping her arms across the TV, shoving him, standing toe to toe) strike me as the sort of things you do purposefully to be irritating, not the things you do when scared or "cornered". He made the decision to get violent against the TV. She made the decision to get violent against him. For that, I hold her accountable.

This is where I was going. You were able to word it better than what I could. I'm not calling him a hero by any means. I am not advocating making excuses for beating a woman. Crap like that makes me furious. I've been through a abusive home situation. Abusive people is the one thing that gets me red hot with anger. If I'm at fault for igniting any of the fury on this thread I'm sorry.

Am I the only one that's getting disgusted with the "cheap shots" we're all taking at each other? Is it really too much to as to let go each other's throats and spend that energy doing something productive? This internal war isn't helping anyone out. I think we're all getting emotional here, myself included.

[Feral]

Originally Posted by Social Torture To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This is where I was going. You were able to word it better than what I could. I'm not calling him a hero by any means. I am not advocating making excuses for beating a woman. Crap like that makes me furious. I've been through a abusive home situation. Abusive people is the one thing that gets me red hot with anger. If I'm at fault for igniting any of the fury on this thread I'm sorry. Am I the only one that's getting disgusted with the "cheap shots" we're all taking at each other? Is it really too much to as to let go each other's throats and spend that energy doing something productive? This internal war isn't helping anyone out. I think we're all getting emotional here, myself included.

I think this is what page 50 looks like on just about any board or thread.

There's nothing we can do here that would be productive. We're arguing over the internet about the contents of a grainy, one minute video with no context whatsoever, and even if we managed to magically pull a single new fact out of it, it would still do no good for anyone. This is the exact opposite of productivity :P

No need to get worked up over it, we're still just a bunch of anons on a message board
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[Amphorian]

Originally Posted by followthehippos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Keyword is willful intimidation. You suppose he was willfully trying to scare her, did it occur to you that he was pissed and let out frustration on the TV stand? Nope, you've already assumed his intent.. She looked real afraid to me.. in case you didn't catch it, that was sarcasm. I think this applies to the woman more than to the man. Lets see, calculated threats, yep, she did that; physical violence, yep, she did that too. It is beyond me how you are so blind to all of this.. Wow, the woman sure has you fooled, this describes her quite well. Don't you see, you're trying to paint the man as an abuser when there is ZERO evidence that he is. If he was an abuser than why does she stand there so confidently with her legs at shoulders length? She wasn't afraid of him, she has always been the one charge in the relationship, NOT him. Everyone agrees the man should not have hit her, but please, do not paint him as an abuser.

	Originally Posted by Cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This post indicates you know nothing about domestic violence or intimidation.

	Originally Posted by Amphorian To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There are those like Feral and I that have stated we know quite a bit about domestic violence and intimidation first hand; however, we're on the side that the woman isn't an innocent helpless victim.

	Originally Posted by Cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I did not say she was an innocent victim. Nor was my post directed to you or Feral.

I'm well aware that the post was not directed at Feral or I; however, you post in response to followthehippos indicated anyone who holds such an opinion or one that is similar knows nothing of domestic violence or intimidation. To which I refuted such.

[Melchizedek]

	Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So would you say she was justified in grabbing it from him if it's hers? After all he seemed to concede by asking where the f%$$# his was then.

I think you'd agree that he wouldn't have been justified in grabbing it from her if it was his, so no, it wasn't justified. It was the first use of physical force in the video, and what really set him off. It wasn't violent, but it was rude, aggressive, and hostile.

And I didn't take it as him conceding it was her Playstation. I took it as a sarcastic question of where his Playstation was, then. After all, having two Playstations is redundant and seems unlikely.

[Shoshana]

Originally Posted by Sinequanon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But you're arguing in circles. Earlier in the thread, you said he was in HER house, destroying HER property. Those are assumptions you've pulled out of nowhere. What we do know is she asserts that some particular thing (a controller, a playstation, it's unclear) is hers. He says something to the effect of "Where's mine, then?" (which does imply there is more than one), and then says that the TV is his. So do SHE and HE have individual property, or do THEY have community property? It cannot possibly be both at the same time, yet you've argued both. It's kind of like arguing with a goldfish.

No...if I understand correctly, from a legal standpoint, if it's common property he can't just take it. And that's very possibly part of the conflict we're witnessing. They're obviously in dispute over what he's allowed to take.

If they were married (strong possibility) he may be restricted in what he's allowed to take.

---------- Post added 03-12-2012 at 07:16 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Melchizedek To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think you'd agree that he wouldn't have been justified in grabbing it from her if it was his, so no, it wasn't justified. It was the first use of physical force in the video, and what really set him off. It wasn't violent, but it was rude, aggressive, and hostile. And I didn't take it as him conceding it was her Playstation. I took it as a sarcastic question of where his Playstation was, then. After all, having two Playstations is redundant and seems unlikely.

whatevah...I can't take another round of that video.

I wish it were less grainy. The poor visibility is probably part of the reason everyone has their own version of what happened.

---------- Post added 03-12-2012 at 07:32 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Imperator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Which is why deciding to go to fisticuffs was a dumb move on her part. Watch out for us short people, we do things to make up the difference (like studying martial arts) and have a keen insight for tactically looking at a situation.

Short guys are different from short women. You have lots more to prove. This is where I think things aren't exactly easy for men.

The bottom line is this for me: If I am in her position, and I feel he is not letting me leave, I feel he will not back down from getting physical, I am afraid for my safety or the safety of my children, and I know I have no chance to beat him in a "fair" fight, then I am kicking him in the nuts and scratching his eyes out, I am biting his nose off, breaking whatever bones I can, throwing him through the TV, finding a weapon, etc.... before getting the hell out of Dodge with my kids.

Me too. I'm fierce and only will fight if I REALLY have to, which turns out to be almost never.

In other words, her actions do not come off to me as someone who feels their last recourse is a physical confrontation against a larger opponent, where she feels afraid for her safety. They come off as confrontational, antagonistic, and more than willing to meet violence with violence. I don't exactly have a lot of sympathy for her as a result. I ask myself if this is going through her mind, and then reach the conclusion her actions were not very responsible as an adult, and as a mother. Is that a fair, evidence-based, rationally sound opinion?

I don't know. I'm still think there's possibility of fight or flight reaction, or some hyper reaction to past abuse.

I'm telling you, the guy's demeanor and actions spooked me. He is nasty. I'd like to think I'd do things differently than she, but I haven't walked in her shoes...

[FruitLoop]

	Originally Posted by rocksteady88 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Women have been getting away with abusing men for years and it's time to stop!

Men will not hit women - full stop! It's weak, childish, uncontrolled, and stupid.

[Clueless]

	Originally Posted by Shoshana To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd like to think I'd do things differently than she, but I haven't walked in her shoes...

This is possibly the most honest statement made by anyone in this thread.

I've made the statement that "had I been the guy I'd have walked out never to return". My statement is also based upon what I'd like to believe, without being in Shawn's shoes it's impossible to know.

What I do know (and I waited to disclose for obvious reasons) is that I was bullied in my first marriage (I never hit her) and it looked very similar to what I viewed on that tape. To be 100% honest I'm not sure I could go through it again without hitting her.


I was raised (reared, southern and beer coming out in speech) that men don't hit women. No matter what.

Physical abuse isn't the only kind in existence. When a woman backs a man into a "proverbial" corner by making ridiculously unfair demands and insisting upon the fulfillment of those demands with no room for concession, what are his options?

That's when he's damned if he does and damned if he don't. That's emotional bullying. His only option is to acquiesce to her demands in the short-term and re-evalutate his (legal or whatever) longer-term options.

He's helpless. A woman in her position (the woman in the video) could demand that he stand on his head and bark like a dog, begin slapping and punching and all manner of idiocy and his only option is to leave, without any of his belongings and without his children. I think few women recognize the truth of this dynamic.


That's my last statement in this thread.

[Ray9]

This thread has gone from inspecting to reflecting to projecting. I pronounce it dead.