[Doggzilla]

So I went into a GNC last week and asked if they had anything that could keep me up, and which did not include caffeine. The attendant pointed me to 5-htp, since it was the main ingredient in an energy product they sell. It didnt say anything about energy, only about increasing your mood, but I gave it a try anyways. I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised.
It works like an SSRI without the side effects, and I feel like it has really improved my connection with other people. It has absolutely improved my mood. The only thing is that it puts me to sleep, so I take it before bed. I dont need nearly the amount of sleep I did, and its much more refreshing.
Its not some small effect either, it is clear and noticeable, just like an SSRI.

I just thought some of you would like to try it out, it really makes me feel like I can connect with people more easily, which takes the most stressful element out of my life.

Like good INTJs, I expect you guys to read about it first.

[sircockburn]

The question is, whether the benefits are sustainable, or whether you develop a tolerance.

[Doggzilla]

	Originally Posted by sircockburn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The question is, whether the benefits are sustainable, or whether you develop a tolerance.

I have also considered this, but I find it unlikely. It takes a considerable amount before someone builds tolerance to drugs. Also keep in mind that restoring a chemical to a normal level is unlikely to cause tolerance.
In my personal experience, there is a certain level of drug use required before tolerance will build. I had to take morphine for a year, and I never had to increase the dose. By keeping it low, and never doubling it up, I never built resistance and I never had a withdrawal.
Along the same line as insulin, if you are replacing something, it is unlikely that you will build a tolerance. This is a food product, its not like you can built resistance to meat or vegetables.

5-HTP is not a recreational drug, and it cant be used as one. At a certain point, which is about two doses, it will make your blood pressure rise and make you uber pissed off. No chance for abuse.

[spect]

if you get it with the vitamin b6 the effects might be more significant, because its part of the synthesis chain to serotonin... i think

[sircockburn]

Originally Posted by Doggzilla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have also considered this, but I find it unlikely. It takes a considerable amount before someone builds tolerance to drugs. Also keep in mind that restoring a chemical to a normal level is unlikely to cause tolerance. In my personal experience, there is a certain level of drug use required before tolerance will build. I had to take morphine for a year, and I never had to increase the dose. By keeping it low, and never doubling it up, I never built resistance and I never had a withdrawal. Along the same line as insulin, if you are replacing something, it is unlikely that you will build a tolerance. This is a food product, its not like you can built resistance to meat or vegetables. 5-HTP is not a recreational drug, and it cant be used as one. At a certain point, which is about two doses, it will make your blood pressure rise and make you uber pissed off. No chance for abuse.

Not tolerance to the chemical per se, I should've clarified that. More like causing the body to become reliant on an external source of 5-HTP, making it more lax in its own production.

I've heard that happening with melatonin.

And on a side note, I found that I develop tolerance very quickly to drugs. I have ADHD, and I take Ritalin for it. It was a MIRACLE the first few days, but the effects tapered off within a week.

(And this was 5mg of Ritalin...the smallest dose prescribed. So I wasn't abusing it/shocking my body into emergency adaptation or anything...)

[ppu6502]

	Originally Posted by spect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	if you get it with the vitamin b6 the effects might be more significant, because its part of the synthesis chain to serotonin... i think

I've found quite a few random sites online that claim mixing B-vitamins with 5-htp is dangerous -because- they are both involved in the chain. They say the B-vitamins cause the 5-htp to be metabolized before it gets to the brain, and bypasses the usual rate-limiting and can cause serious heart problems.

But, do your own research, I haven't found conclusive studies just anecdotal quotes scattered around the net.

[DrCiao]

Originally Posted by sircockburn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not tolerance to the chemical per se, I should've clarified that. More like causing the body to become reliant on an external source of 5-HTP, making it more lax in its own production. I've heard that happening with melatonin. And on a side note, I found that I develop tolerance very quickly to drugs. I have ADHD, and I take Ritalin for it. It was a MIRACLE the first few days, but the effects tapered off within a week. (And this was 5mg of Ritalin...the smallest dose prescribed. So I wasn't abusing it/shocking my body into emergency adaptation or anything...)

It does not happen with melatonin. Melatonin also has the added advantage of being an anti-oxidant and prevents Alzheimers. However there are different gradations of melatonin- usually capsule is more effective than tablet and so on- various companies make different versions.

---------- Post added 03-04-2012 at 04:25 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Doggzilla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	5-HTP is not a recreational drug, and it cant be used as one. At a certain point, which is about two doses, it will make your blood pressure rise and make you uber pissed off. No chance for abuse.

No, it actually lowers blood pressure.

[spect]

	Originally Posted by ppu6502 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've found quite a few random sites online that claim mixing B-vitamins with 5-htp is dangerous -because- they are both involved in the chain. They say the B-vitamins cause the 5-htp to be metabolized before it gets to the brain, and bypasses the usual rate-limiting and can cause serious heart problems.

i just went back over it.

yes and no, it depends on the persons chemistry. even 5htp with some people causes serotonin regulation problems, and its why taking those supplements in addition to ssri's are not recommended. paying attention to physical effects is usually safe enough to avoid problems, the biggest concern is
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which is rare.

[gestalt]

I supplement with 5-HTP. It is recommended for seasonal affective disorder. It does help me sleep better (I also tan ~1-3 times weekly during winter months because of my latitude). It seems to help with self-control and mood stabilization. If I'd known about it before it might have been an interesting addition to a smoking cessation plan. As for connecting with people better - possibly - as the reward centers of the brain would be getting more neurotransmitter stimulation for anticipation and successful completion of social activities. I myself work in a support capacity for other people - albeit with truth-bearing caveats - and I haven't had any problems per se. But I wouldn't attribute success just to 5-HTP either as I've developed those "like me, like you" skills over lots of customer service.

[aok]

I take it before I go to bed. It helps me wind down off of caffeine and go to sleep. I don't like to take it during the day.

[Doggzilla]

	Originally Posted by DrCiao To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, it actually lowers blood pressure.

I dont remember how, but taking too much sets off some sort of hormone that raises BP. Trust me, it really does.

[Nightmare]

I'm curious and interested... Could someone clearly define the uses for such supplement (in a list-like format)? I've done a little research of my own but want to make sure it is valid research. I'm especially interested in long-term effects, as I don't want to permanently fuck my brain chemistry in the process (though I realize every drug effects every brain differently).

[DrCiao]

	Originally Posted by Doggzilla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I dont remember how, but taking too much sets off some sort of hormone that raises BP. Trust me, it really does.

Do you think you could locate where you read that?

To the best of my knowledge, 5HTP does not have that effect. 5HTP increases the neurotransmitter serotonin in your system, which is linked to the production of the amino acid tryptophan, which converts into the hormone melatonin, which has a blood pressure lowering effect.

Has 5HTP raised your flood pressure when youve taken it? If so, could it be isolated as the cause, or could there have been something else you had taken or drank that could've raised your BP?

[eagleseven]

It seems the most common use is as a sleep aid, as it's a melatonin precursor. Which makes me wonder what the GNC guy was thinking.

While I know people who swear by it, I avoid taking melatonin-enhancing products because the circadian rhythm is very, very powerful. It controls way more than just sleepiness, and so jacking it up with melatonin (either directly or with precursors) probably has long-term deleterious effects not yet discovered.

This is also why it's considered a prescription drug overseas.

[DrCiao]

Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It seems the most common use is as a sleep aid, as it's a melatonin precursor. Which makes me wonder what the GNC guy was thinking. While I know people who swear by it, I avoid taking melatonin-enhancing products because the circadian rhythm is very, very powerful. It controls way more than just sleepiness, and so jacking it up with melatonin (either directly or with precursors) probably has long-term deleterious effects not yet discovered. This is also why it's considered a prescription drug overseas.

Melatonin has no deleterious effects. Children produce the most melatonin- and as we get older, we produce significantly less.

In fact, melatonin has the added benefit of preventing alzheimers, as well as certain cancers, and has an anti-aging effect:

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[Nightmare]

	Originally Posted by DrCiao To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Melatonin has no deleterious effects. Children produce the most melatonin- and as we get older, we produce significantly less. In fact, melatonin has the added benefit of preventing alzheimers, as well as certain cancers, and has an anti-aging effect: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But do not forget that supplementing in melatonin degrades the rate of natural melatonin synthesis. So the amount of melatonin we naturally produce after ceasing to supplement could be less if not detrimentally less.

[Autumnleaf]

5-HTP? If you are talking tryptophan then just eat some turkey or chicken.

[Nightmare]

Well I took a tablet at 8PM, it's now 12AM, and I've been feeling very happy... I've had laughing bouts last for minutes, and I feel sort of high a little bit. Interesting. I actually feel like when I was a kid and could laugh at anything uncontrollably then feel "funny" all-around.

If I don't use it regularly, I may use it as a form of therapeutic-high drug. I feel fantastical.

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by DrCiao To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Melatonin has no deleterious effects. Children produce the most melatonin- and as we get older, we produce significantly less. In fact, melatonin has the added benefit of preventing alzheimers, as well as certain cancers, and has an anti-aging effect: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There aren't any long-term studies of the effects, as it's too new.

Most hormones aren't harmful in small doses in the short-term. But unlike the steroid-jacked bodybuilders dying at 50 today, I have no intention of being the guinea pig of the first long-term studies of melatonin use.


Hormones, unlike conventional drugs, have very wide-reaching effects. I could pull a few studies that make testosterone injections seem like a miracle-drug (anti-aging+tissue regeneration+strength+). Like most hormones, the young and healthy produce the most testosterone, and it falls with age. Plus, testosterone is used to treat patients with HIV and muscle-wasting diseases!


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He died of kidney failure, barely 30. The current crop of bodybuilders, spending decades soaking their bodies in synthetic hormones, are developing diabetes, heart disease, and kidney problems at increasingly younger ages. While it's impossible to study the long-term use of illegal substances, I'm not interested in finding out the hard way.


Hormones are ridiculously powerful. If I'm not actively ill, I see no reason to risk regularly consuming them.

[qrav]

Originally Posted by DrCiao To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Do you think you could locate where you read that? To the best of my knowledge, 5HTP does not have that effect. 5HTP increases the neurotransmitter serotonin in your system, which is linked to the production of the amino acid tryptophan, which converts into the hormone melatonin, which has a blood pressure lowering effect. Has 5HTP raised your flood pressure when youve taken it? If so, could it be isolated as the cause, or could there have been something else you had taken or drank that could've raised your BP?

Anything raising levels of produced seratonin should have no effect on systemic levels of histamine.

The pathway is tryptophan conversion to seratonin by the enzyme tryptophan carboxylase, I believe.

Histamine uses a different synthetic pathway, and its precursor is the amino acid histamine.

Also, they occur in different parts of the brain. Seratonergic neurons (producers of 5-ht, the NT not the supplement) are found in the raphei nuclei (90% sure), Histamine is in a a couple of different locations.

[Doggzilla]

	Originally Posted by nightmar149 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well I took a tablet at 8PM, it's now 12AM, and I've been feeling very happy... I've had laughing bouts last for minutes, and I feel sort of high a little bit. Interesting. I actually feel like when I was a kid and could laugh at anything uncontrollably then feel "funny" all-around. If I don't use it regularly, I may use it as a form of therapeutic-high drug. I feel fantastical.

My experience was a bit less, but then again I dont react much to anything, even oxy's. I continue to have improved mood, and after two weeks Im starting to overcome my stress tension for the first time I can remember. I can physically feel my lungs loosening up, and note highly improved ability to connect with people. In the past I scored off the chart on autism tests, now I feel somewhat of a normal person. I am absolutely experiencing new emotions that I have never know, such as the strong emotions related to eye contact.
Also, my visual senses are improving. I always had terrible visual/spatial tests, I can tell my senses are becoming somewhat more normal, but are still below average.

[LavenderOrchids]

I've been wanting to try this.
Now that I'm no longer on an SSRI, I think it's time.

[DrCiao]

Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There aren't any long-term studies of the effects, as it's too new. Most hormones aren't harmful in small doses in the short-term. But unlike the steroid-jacked bodybuilders dying at 50 today, I have no intention of being the guinea pig of the first long-term studies of melatonin use. Hormones, unlike conventional drugs, have very wide-reaching effects. I could pull a few studies that make testosterone injections seem like a miracle-drug (anti-aging+tissue regeneration+strength+). Like most hormones, the young and healthy produce the most testosterone, and it falls with age. Plus, testosterone is used to treat patients with HIV and muscle-wasting diseases! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. He died of kidney failure, barely 30. The current crop of bodybuilders, spending decades soaking their bodies in synthetic hormones, are developing diabetes, heart disease, and kidney problems at increasingly younger ages. While it's impossible to study the long-term use of illegal substances, I'm not interested in finding out the hard way. Hormones are ridiculously powerful. If I'm not actively ill, I see no reason to risk regularly consuming them.

Testosterone is very different in composition from melatonin. The two aren't comparable.

[Nightmare]

Originally Posted by Doggzilla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My experience was a bit less, but then again I dont react much to anything, even oxy's. I continue to have improved mood, and after two weeks Im starting to overcome my stress tension for the first time I can remember. I can physically feel my lungs loosening up, and note highly improved ability to connect with people. In the past I scored off the chart on autism tests, now I feel somewhat of a normal person. I am absolutely experiencing new emotions that I have never know, such as the strong emotions related to eye contact. Also, my visual senses are improving. I always had terrible visual/spatial tests, I can tell my senses are becoming somewhat more normal, but are still below average.

After use for a few days, the drug has stopped its early euphoric effects (likely as my body has adjusted to the increased serotonin levels), and has been stabilizing my mood as it suggests on the bottle itself. I've had no side effects that I can tell besides a mild morning headache for about 5 minutes after I wake up (only happened once or twice though). It seems to really function well with my body and keeps me in good spirits (or at least, okay/decent spirits). There were times earlier last week that I was feeling particularly low, because there were things happening that I couldn't control and I felt trapped, but I didn't experience quite the low that I'm normally used to; i.e. the depth-of-hell low where all I want to do is end it all. This supplement seemed to literally "hold back" that feeling and prevent it from surfacing. So I felt bad, but not the normal really really really really bad. I could actually function; for this I am grateful.

I will continue to use this and demonstrate any progress/future effects I experience in this thread.

[Doggzilla]

	Originally Posted by nightmar149 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	After use for a few days, the drug has stopped its early euphoric effects (likely as my body has adjusted to the increased serotonin levels), and has been stabilizing my mood as it suggests on the bottle itself. I've had no side effects that I can tell besides a mild morning headache for about 5 minutes after I wake up (only happened once or twice though).

Very similar to what I experienced, but I am continuing to experience new feelings, or improved feelings. Today, I had the day from hell. Litterally, it combined every major problem that truckers fear. I had to go to NYC, got out a day ahead of schedule, had missing cargo, had to back into a dock meant for a 48" daycab (and it had cars across from it too!), and then the place refused to unload me. This wasted the entire day I had saved. I felt like I was going to blow a gasket, but the most unusual thing happened. I actually could feel myself relaxing. That never happens, I just dont get over stress very well. Its actually a completely new feeling to me, never felt anything like it.

I just took a few naproxen and used some cortizone 10 to stop any throbbing, and I really feel very well right now. Lets see how I feel in the morning.