[Strange Moon]

This will be a rather long post and my english is not that great so I apologize in advance.

I’ll begin with some facts about myself.
I’m male, in the mid 40s, living in an LTR for 27 years now, I’m an INTJ, maybe slightly leaning to INFJ sometimes. (I’ve never tested as INFJ but my T preference is pretty small.)
As for most INTJs it is a rare event for me to make new friends because I find 95% of all people completely uninteresting and because I’m only interested in deep and meaningful friendships, the kind of friendship most people have no time and interest in anymore.
If I DO make a friend, the friendship usually lasts very long. My friends have about a 50/50 male/female ratio. My best friend is a woman and I have another good woman friend, both of them have been my friends for almost 10 years.
I’m only pointing this out to show that friendships with women are normal for me and they usually work well.

Now enter this INTJ woman that I met on a mail-friend site 1 ½ years ago, let’s call her F.
We immediately noticed how similar our minds work and she introduced me to MBTI. Sure enough I tested as an INTJ like her. This friend is married, they are around 30 years old. Let’s call her husband H.
F. and I developed a great friendship, first by writing us long mails, then by messaging and chatting by messenger almost every day and talking on the phone about 2-3 times per month. They live in another country but they have the same nationality as I. A few months ago I visited them at home and around christmas we met again here in my country where they were visiting family and we all agreed that we had a very nice time together. F. told me a couple of times that she cares a lot about me (in a friendly way). H. told me that it’s amazing that F. found such a good friend on a mail-friend-website. He said that that he likes me too.
From my point of view this was really an almost perfect friendship. I could openly talk about everything both to F. and her husband. They both asked me for advice in personal matters and they also gave ME advice when I asked for it. We were discussing interesting subjects a few times a week.
There was no sexual attraction and no jealousy issues (that I know of). I did NOT make a pass at her (nor did she make a pass at me.) If we had an occasional disagreement we solved it in a civil manner. There was never any drama whatsoever.
Contact was initiated about equally often by F. and by me. If anything she was even keener than I to plan our rare meetings way in advance.
One day we discussed how friendships sometimes end because one friend suddenly loses interest in the other and just stops replying to mails or to return calls or how some people use the new standard way of ending a friendship…deleting somebody from your Facebook-friend-list.
Both H. and I have had bad experiences in that regard. We all agreed how painful it can be if a supposedly close friend just stops replying to mails and calls without giving a reason.

A few weeks ago I had a phone conversation with F..
H. was sitting next to her as usual and he sometimes commented on our conversation. The mood was nice and funny as always.
The NEXT day I got a mail from F. in which she asks me about a remark I made in another phone conversation about two weeks ago and about another conversation that we had maybe half a year ago. F. did not like an advice that I gave them a couple of weeks ago.
H. has some problems concerning his self-confidence and he’s sometimes depressed and unsatisfied with his life. F. and I have talked and written about this a couple of times and she had asked me for advice about what H. could do to be happier with himself and his life. I had a few ideas. Some of them F. and H. liked and they immediately took steps to realize them. In one phone-conversation I proposed that H. could change his style of clothing.
He’s usually dressed pretty conservative and slightly boring. He’s a very tall and slim guy and doesn’t look bad. He could look pretty cool if he put on some more interesting clothes. I think that the way you dress can have a positive influence on your self-esteem.
F. didn’t think so and she told me so in her mail, weeks after we had discussed this subject.
I did not mind that she had a different opinion on the subject. We’ve discussed a lot of more controversial subjects before but it never became personal.
But the tone of her mail was uncharacteristically aggressive and she was implying that if I really judge the worth of a person by the kind of clothes he’s wearing I would be a rather shallow person and that maybe she has misjudged me after all.
This attack came completely unexpected and it seemed to me that she deliberately misinterpreted my words in a rather unfriendly way.
I mean she was asking ME for advice and when I told her what I think is a pretty sound and reasonable advice she accuses me of being shallow and to judge a person by the clothes he’s wearing?

I wrote a quick reply in which I said basically that if she really thinks that bad about me it would be better if we stop talking for a while. Three days later I sent her a long mail explaining in detail what I really meant by the remarks that have apparently offended her. Of course I’m not judging anybody by his clothes, I just thought it would be a good idea to change your style if you want to change yourself. It was just an idea, how to help H.. I also told her in no uncertain terms that I felt unfairly attacked by her mail. My mail also had a rather aggressive tone but I did dot insult her. I was just vehemently explaining my position and told her that I don’t appreciate being called “shallow” and that I don’t appreciate being asked for advice and then attacked when I give it.
She did not answer that day so the next day I asked her by SMS if she is still angry with me.
She replied that she is not angry anymore, that everything is fine, that she has not much time but that she will let me know when we can talk. She also texted me a *hug*. (Now I think in that moment she had not read my mail from the day before yet.)

I was glad that she was not pissed off anymore and I was looking forward to our next conversation.
The next day she did not write but I wrote her a mail telling her about a funny discussion I had at work. In the evening I checked my account on the mail-friend-site where I first met her 1 ½ years ago.
I was shocked to see that she had deleted me from her friends list in the morning and also blocked me so that I could not send her messages over this site. (We never used it anyway, we were writing us normal e-mails.)
I immediately sent F. an SMS asking her why she has deleted me I got no answer. Since then she has not replied to any message, mail or call. Furthermore when I tried to call them again a few weeks after the incident they had changed their landline-phone number! (They also have issues with F.’s family so maybe that was the reason for changing the number. Changing it just because I might call them again would be more than a bit paranoid.)
I must say in all my life this is among the most puzzling reactions I ever had from a friend or acquaintance. Why is she doing this? Something must have been brooding inside her for a long time but why was she always so sweet and friendly and kept calling and writing me without telling me what is bothering her? And why this immature reaction of deleting me from her friends-list instead of calling me and telling me she’s angry. It’s a totally un-INTJ behaviour, isn’t it? How could I have misjudged her and her husband so severely? At least F. appeared to be a balanced and reasonable person.
I would never have thought that an INTJ could show such irrational and hurtful behaviour against somebody she told just a week ago she “loves” as a friend.
I think giving somebody you told repeatedly that you care about him and love him as a friend the silent treatment is cruel, especially when the friend has done nothing but stated a different opinion in an e-mail.

I’m usually a pretty balanced and calm guy but I admit that this event throw me into an emotional turmoil for some days. I couldn’t sleep or eat for three or four days.
I was thinking about how I could have misjudged two people that I talked and/or chatted with every other day for 1 ½ years. I was thinking why an INTJ who is very interested in stoic philosophy can have such an extremely emotional reaction because of a comparatively minor argument. I was thinking if it maybe just was the final straw and if she was pissed off about other things but never said a word.
How can I know that something is wrong if somebody is sweet and nice to me every day and never says that something is wrong?
I was also blaming myself for fucking up this friendship but both my girlfriend and my best friend told me that I did not do anything wrong besides replying to an aggressive mail in a rather rude manner and that I have apologized for this immediately. So, by now I feel much better and have mentally already filed the events in my “bad experiences with online friends” folder.
I have sent F. a long letter explaining my point of view and when she received it she finally sent me a short SMS, just saying that the friendship is over. Better than nothing, I guess.

What’s your opinion about all this?
Is it normal for an INTJ to give somebody the silent treatment without even explaining why? I can’t imagine that I would do something like that, if I cut somebody out of my life I would give him/her a VERY long written explanation that will “prove” the logic and rationality of what I’m doing and I think that most INTJs would do the same. I asked my two INTJ friends and they said they would do it. Also I would never refuse to talk to a friend just because of an offensive mail or even some rude words said in the heat of the moment. If I would be THAT sensitive I would have no friends at all. But as I said before…in the case of F. I did NOT use any bad language.
Of course people tell me to just move on and forget about her because she “obviously” never was a real friend to begin with. I also think that it is better to know the truth than to live an illusion, I would always choose the “red pill” instead of the “blue pill”.
It would be very difficult anyway to gain back my trust in her. Trust is hard to gain but easy to destroy. I’d always have to be careful what I say or write and I’d always be suspicious that she might hurt me again.
So, I have accepted that this friendship is over.

Still, I miss my friend and I’m not angry with her. Just puzzled and disappointed.

[Jesseh]

It's normal, it's easier for them to avoid emotions in any way by vanishing/silent treatment. It's a way of avoiding feeling which is something that makes us INTJ's very uncomfortable in some cases.

[Selene]

Originally Posted by Strange Moon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I mean she was asking ME for advice and when I told her what I think is a pretty sound and reasonable advice she accuses me of being shallow and to judge a person by the clothes he’s wearing? She did not answer that day so the next day I asked her by SMS if she is still angry with me. She replied that she is not angry anymore, that everything is fine, that she has not much time but that she will let me know when we can talk. She also texted me a *hug*. (Now I think in that moment she had not read my mail from the day before yet.) I was glad that she was not pissed off anymore and I was looking forward to our next conversation. The next day she did not write but I wrote her a mail telling her about a funny discussion I had at work. In the evening I checked my account on the mail-friend-site where I first met her 1 ½ years ago. I was shocked to see that she had deleted me from her friends list in the morning and also blocked me so that I could not send her messages over this site. (We never used it anyway, we were writing us normal e-mails.) I must say in all my life this is among the most puzzling reactions I ever had from a friend or acquaintance. Why is she doing this? Something must have been brooding inside her for a long time but why was she always so sweet and friendly and kept calling and writing me without telling me what is bothering her? And why this immature reaction of deleting me from her friends-list instead of calling me and telling me she’s angry. It’s a totally un-INTJ behaviour, isn’t it? How could I have misjudged her and her husband so severely? At least F. appeared to be a balanced and reasonable person. I would never have thought that an INTJ could show such irrational and hurtful behaviour against somebody she told just a week ago she “loves” as a friend. I think giving somebody you told repeatedly that you care about him and love him as a friend the silent treatment is cruel, especially when the friend has done nothing but stated a different opinion in an e-mail. I have sent F. a long letter explaining my point of view and when she received it she finally sent me a short SMS, just saying that the friendship is over. Better than nothing, I guess. What’s your opinion about all this? Is it normal for an INTJ to give somebody the silent treatment without even explaining why? I can’t imagine that I would do something like that, if I cut somebody out of my life I would give him/her a VERY long written explanation that will “prove” the logic and rationality of what I’m doing and I think that most INTJs would do the same. I asked my two INTJ friends and they said they would do it. Also I would never refuse to talk to a friend just because of an offensive mail or even some rude words said in the heat of the moment. If I would be THAT sensitive I would have no friends at all. But as I said before…in the case of F. I did NOT use any bad language. Of course people tell me to just move on and forget about her because she “obviously” never was a real friend to begin with. I also think that it is better to know the truth than to live an illusion, I would always choose the “red pill” instead of the “blue pill”. It would be very difficult anyway to gain back my trust in her. Trust is hard to gain but easy to destroy. I’d always have to be careful what I say or write and I’d always be suspicious that she might hurt me again. So, I have accepted that this friendship is over. Still, I miss my friend and I’m not angry with her. Just puzzled and disappointed.

As an INTJ, I have never dropped any platonic friends without an explanation. Much less my close friends. In fact I've never dropped anybody from my inner circle, at best I will distance myself and maintain occasional contact.

I don't usually express my feelings directly but I will definitely explain my position to them, how I perceive their position, and why I think their position on an issue is invalid or their anger is uncalled for. Silent treatment irks me because of the ambiguity it brings, and emotional stress it can cause. I would never do that to anyone I care about. Besides, I feel more comfortable after decisions have been made, especially in interpersonal relationships. Leaving things hanging will simply invite consistent doubts, which I personally find redundant and a waste of energy.

It's clear they have no interest in continuing the friendship. It is also evident that they'd rather avoid any communication than address their decision. Either way it points to a lack of respect and value for your friendship. Some people prefer to emotionally distance themselves gradually first, when they've mustered the courage, they will make a clean but silent break. I am guessing this could be the case here, and it reflects disregard for your feelings. If I were in your shoes, I would simply write this off as a lack of maturity and move on. Better now than later.

PS: In interpersonal relationships, the only time I will use silent treatment as a method of exit (and it hasn't happened yet) is when I perceive the other party as toxic and harmful to an extreme degree. Depending on their disposition and how I foresee they will react, if confronting the issue will result in unfavorable reaction from them, thus causing myself harm, I'll just ignore them. If ignoring them will only worsen the situation, I will then communicate my decision before cutting them off.

[DrCiao]

Sounds like F has a crush on you or at least interested in you romantically. She cut you off because she realized nothing will ever happen between you and used the feeble excuse of clothing/attire to make the break.

Kinda schizo of her to send you a hug then write "friendship is over".

[goreblaster]

I think that you did absolutely nothing to fuck up the friendship.

I am leaning toward DrCiao's theory. She was attracted to you, probably without being aware of it. Her husband eventually caught on to her feelings and tension grew between them. Perhaps the husband broached the subject to her, resulting in a huge fight that brought their marriage into jeopardy. After realizing that she was in fact attracted to you, and understanding that she cannot accept that as reality due to her commitment to her husband, she responded by eradicating you from her life all together. She was also probably very ashamed to realize that unconsciously her intentions with you were not purely platonic all along. This can help to further explain the irrational, even indecent, way she went about terminating the friendship.

INTJ's do not like to be caught off guard by things. Romantic feelings do just that. If anything can explain why an INTJ is behaving naively, immaturely, emotionally etc., it's romance. Just a theory of course, don't mean to dramatize your experience anymore than it is. But I can think of one instance in my life where I behaved like her, when I realized I was attracted to a friend and a relationship was not feasible between us.

[Strange Moon]

Originally Posted by Selene To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Silent treatment irks me because of the ambiguity it brings, and emotional stress it can cause. I would never do that to anyone I care about. Besides, I feel more comfortable after decisions have been made, especially in interpersonal relationships. Leaving things hanging will simply invite consistent doubts, which I personally find redundant and a waste of energy. It's clear they have no interest in continuing the friendship. It is also evident that they'd rather avoid any communication than address their decision. Either way it points to a lack of respect and value for your friendship. Some people prefer to emotionally distance themselves gradually first, when they've mustered the courage, they will make a clean but silent break. I am guessing this could be the case here, and it reflects disregard for your feelings. If I were in your shoes, I would simply write this off as a lack of maturity and move on. Better now than later. PS: In interpersonal relationships, the only time I will use silent treatment as a method of exit (and it hasn't happened yet) is when I perceive the other party as toxic and harmful to an extreme degree. Depending on their disposition and how I foresee they will react, if confronting the issue will result in unfavorable reaction from them, thus causing myself harm, I'll just ignore them. If ignoring them will only worsen the situation, I will then communicate my decision before cutting them off.

Thank you, Selene. I completely agree with you.

---------- Post added 02-13-2012 at 04:15 PM ----------

Originally Posted by goreblaster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think that you did absolutely nothing to fuck up the friendship. I am leaning toward DrCiao's theory. She was attracted to you, probably without being aware of it. Her husband eventually caught on to her feelings and tension grew between them. Perhaps the husband broached the subject to her, resulting in a huge fight that brought their marriage into jeopardy. After realizing that she was in fact attracted to you, and understanding that she cannot accept that as reality due to her commitment to her husband, she responded by eradicating you from her life all together. She was also probably very ashamed to realize that unconsciously her intentions with you were not purely platonic all along. This can help to further explain the irrational, even indecent, way she went about terminating the friendship. INTJ's do not like to be caught off guard by things. Romantic feelings do just that. If anything can explain why an INTJ is behaving naively, immaturely, emotionally etc., it's romance. Just a theory of course, don't mean to dramatize your experience anymore than it is. But I can think of one instance in my life where I behaved like her, when I realized I was attracted to a friend and a relationship was not feasible between us.

Well, Dr. Ciao and you are not the first ones to bring up this theory.
I'm pretty sure though that nothing as dramatic as you are imagining it in your post has happened between them.
I can't substantiate my opinion...it's just a gut feeling. I think they are still very much in love with each other and I did not jeopardize anything.
As an INTJ I'm maybe sometimes a bit slow in recognizing somebody else's feelings, especially if the other person is also an INTJ who likes to hide her emotions. But I think (I hope!) I would notice it if a woman I communicate with on a daily basis is madly in love with me.

It's possible though that she had a mild crush, I guess it's a matter of definition. We certainly both cared a lot about each other, you can call that a crush. Maybe for some INTJs that's enough to make them go berzerk if they feel hurt by a the person they care about.

[breaktheparadox]

Is it possible that she felt like the clothing remark was an attack on her husband and a move on her? As in "your husbands not good enough but I am" kind of thing. Maybe the husband read the remark and was extremely proud and protective of his clothing, preferring comfort and function to the less drab. It seems the husband would have had to get involved to illicit a emotionally charged response. But for any scenario I can fathom within the reasonable realm of possibilities she over reacted. I am sorry for the (probably irrational) loss of a good friend, they are ever so hard to come by.

[PurpleGiraffe]

Hyped up emotional actions are generally only really fueled by hyped up emotional reactions. Something must have happened. Maybe she did start to feel "something" and with hubbie being depressed you started to look even better or maybe the hubbie is kind of emotionally abusive/controlling/insecure, so he imagined that something more might have been going on and brought it up. It was somehow discussed (or realized) that something not completely platonic was occurring or a rift was starting the occur between the two of them, so she shut you out super fast? Either that or she's crazy or just never really liked you that much, but was too much of a douchebag to say anything. My votes on the fact that maybe not everything is super perfect on the home front, but it's all really speculative anyway.

[Timdotz]

I had a situation once where a former friend of mine consistently debunked my statements for his own gratification and never took me seriously. I helped him on his projects and homework but when it came to his turn he gave me the 'Do it yourself' attitude. After a frustrating month I ceased communication to him altogether, and some of my friends followed suit.

[Async]

I'll go with the theory that she has a crush on you and since she cannot act on it, the best thing she could do is cut you out cold turkey.

	You are the most independent and strong-willed (some might say stubborn) of all the LoveTypes. Once you make up your mind to do something--whether it's starting or ending a relationship, or anything in between--you will do what you want to do. And God help anyone who tries to dissuade you.

[goreblaster]

	Originally Posted by Strange Moon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's possible though that she had a mild crush, I guess it's a matter of definition. We certainly both cared a lot about each other, you can call that a crush. Maybe for some INTJs that's enough to make them go berzerk if they feel hurt by a the person they care about.

What she did is not something that a balanced human does, regardless of personality type.

Perhaps it could have been that she had little to no romantic feelings for you, but the husband had become jealous regardless. It may have been something to the effect of him feeling threatened because he perceived you two as having a "deeper connection". Or maybe he was threatened for some other reason. Perhaps he demanded she cut-off contact because of this. Just another theory.

I do know from experience that unhealthy relationships are a savage beast that can make people behave in ridiculous ways. It doesn't sound like they were a dis-functional from your account, but some are good at hiding such things.

[Mercurial]

I dunno....as an INTJ I cut people off because I don't want to talk about my feelings and because I'm very much a 'that's it, decision made' sort of person and don't want to be talked out of it. However, I let a lot of stuff go and it takes quite a while and months of thinking about it before I actually do it.

Whatever the reason, I think you're best to forget about it because you'll drive yourself nuts winding why. Just accept that they have, and move on.

[Strange Moon]

	Originally Posted by Mercurial To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Whatever the reason, I think you're best to forget about it because you'll drive yourself nuts winding why. Just accept that they have, and move on.

You're right. I did move on. But I have no hard feelings for them.

[Awesome]

If the clothes thing really set her off then I am not sure what is up...
I have a hard time evaluating what emotion they are expressing. INTJ ish thing.
I am guessing a few messages weren't read "emotionally."
This could cause a decent disconnect in information.

It is frustrating because I know I don't intend to offend people.
I just want to be understood.
I choose to not be offended as well.

With the amount of time and effort both sides put into the friendship .... I find it incredulous.
Something else has to be going on.


Silent treatment works both ways atleast.

Good luck. You did nothing wrong.

[mieu]

Originally Posted by goreblaster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What she did is not something that a balanced human does, regardless of personality type. Perhaps it could have been that she had little to no romantic feelings for you, but the husband had become jealous regardless. It may have been something to the effect of him feeling threatened because he perceived you two as having a "deeper connection". Or maybe he was threatened for some other reason. Perhaps he demanded she cut-off contact because of this. Just another theory. I do know from experience that unhealthy relationships are a savage beast that can make people behave in ridiculous ways. It doesn't sound like they were a dis-functional from your account, but some are good at hiding such things.

This is the only explanation I could come up with either. If her husband is depressed and having self-esteem issues, he may be accusing her of paying more attention to you than to him, or any number of insecure things. Not even that there is romantic attraction--she may have been neglecting him in some way, and yet he sees her still keeping her friendship-habits with you. It may be a momentary lapse in his judgement, but she may have been put in a situation where she had to make a tough decision in order to help her husband on the road to recovery. I know that if my SO suddenly became uncharacteristically jealous after presenting symptoms of depression, I'd probably do the same thing. After all, his depression is temporary, treatable, better to remove the triggers so that more time can be spent getting to the heart of the issue, by showing him that I'm not his enemy. Then again, I'd definitely TELL the person I was cutting off, even if it meant coming down hard if they persisted.

I can hear people saying 'OMG y u let ur SO boss u around w/e dont b a pansy she shud just dump him if hes doing dat.' Relationships aren't supposed to be something you can turn on and off at will--it works both ways--but if this scenario is what was playing out, someone's heart would have been broken no matter what she chose to do. If he is being unusually irrational, she may have felt that compromise to give him peace of mind was the way to handle it.

[TheDubhlainn]

Well honestly as an INTJ, I don't give people reasons because they could argue or just talk shit about the situation; then the cycle would start again. People for the most part can't change themselves without massive amounts of work, and the majority of us, even though we say we are willing to work towards changing, don't actually change. It's much easier to fix a problem, not by ignoring it but just cutting it off at the source which is the relationship. "If there is no more you and me, then there is no problem." INTJ's don't have problems, we fix them.

[Zedar]

Hmm, this strikes a chord with me. After a disastrous work situation that eventually led to some soul-searching after I'd swung between blaming myself and then blaming everybody else, and after proving to myself I didn't have Asperger's, I realised that I am prone to avoidance behaviour.

Whenever somebody pisses me off, I work around them. When that isn't possible, I change my circumstances and cut them and anybody connected to them that I don't have a particularly high regard for. I don't see it as cowardice, I just don't have to suffer the presence of people who are a pain in the ass.

I've considered that thing about keeping your enemies close, but in the end I decided life was better to just remove the enemies from the equation. I know those people are still trying to keep track on me on twitter and LinkedIn but they aren't going to be able to anything that affects me.

[Zyelhsak]

My honest view on this is that her relationship with her husband plays a big role in her actions towards you. I've only done this once, to one of my best friends ever, and it was because of the situation, that my bf became insanely jealous after awhile. I couldn't even give my friend any notice as to why. Years later after said bf exited the picture I gained back contact with my bf and explained to him what happened, and that I would never allow a relationship to control me like that again.

This behavior she has shown is completely not characteristic of how intjs handle their closest friends. I've always regretted what I did.

Just my two cents.

[jhpark]

A couple people have cut me out of their lives. No explanation ever given. I figure it doesn't really matter what the reason is. Whenever I've cut someone out I've never explained it either.

It's only worth explaining if you are open to resuming the friendship in some form - and in that case you're better off having that discussion from the beginning instead of initiating it with the silent treatment.

But if there's no possibility of reconciliation, there's really no reason to explain anything. If they're worth explaining it to, they're worth keeping as a friend.

[Askew]

It does not sound as though you did anything 'wrong.' The mixed messages you received are quite puzzling, clearly there was something going on that you were not privy to, eithier just with your friend, or between your friend and her husband.
Having said that, I confess that I have cut off all communication with certain people (for various reasons) more than once. Ususally in the case of a romantic relationship that I found to be ultimately undesirable. In retrospect, I see it was probably not a nice thing to do, but it was how I dealt with uncomfortable emotional situations.

[Strange Moon]

Oh, this old thread has been resurrected. What a blast from the past.
Thanks for the new comments. Interesting to read the thread again one year after the fact.
My opinion on the matter hasn't changed. I can't imagine giving a friend the silent treatment unless he/she has done something unspeakably evil.
It's a sign of weakness and social awkwardness. I'm not afraid to talk to anybody, let alone a friend who has done me wrong.