[Nikonman]

Originally Posted by Equinox To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think most of it is social pressure and people doing what they want instead of what they should. Society (mostly the media) plays up being in a relationship as highly desirable if not necessary. Just as in today's culture people consider extroversion inherently superior to introversion, so being in a relationship is inherently superior to being single. Because of this, people try to get into relationships "just because." The other thing is that people get into relationships for selfish reasons. "I want to be with this person because he/she appeals to my base desires." "I want to be with this person because he/she is rich and famous." Etc. Shouldn't it be about making the other person happy and sacrificing some things for their benefit? Relationships break up because one or both sides are stupid, petty, and selfish. Relationships start for superficial reasons and end when complexity comes into play and people don't want to deal with it. It's especially a problem where in today's society, marriage doesn't even mean much anymore. It's not the permanent bond that it used to be. (NOTE: I am not in a relationship and basically never have been. This is all based on my observations of other people.)

Wow, these are all rather strong opinions from someone who has never been in a relationship. "Relationships break up because one or both sides are stupid, petty, and selfish." Incredibly judgmental and uninformed. It is quite natural for many of us to have a drive to seek a mate and reproduce. In many societies, marriage is often part of the process. Most of us start relationships because we like other person. Some grow apart over time, some learn they did not know each other all that well, some have strong needs that are not met, and some were simply misled by their partner, among other things. I was married 19 years to someone who simply a bad fit, something we did not discover until we were married and living together. We grew apart over time and eventually grew to dislike each other. We hung in there too long, to the point of a very strong dislike. She is not a bad person, nor am I, but did not work out. We are happily divorced. It still sucked to get divorced, it a major life change, especially when a child is involved. But everyone involved seems much happier today.

One of the most annoying traits of way too many INTJ's is throwing out harsh judgments on subjects they know absolutely nothing about. This is just one of those subjects that brings out plenty of overly strong opinions from people with zero personal experience in the subject. Some of you would probably tell Jordan, Kobe and LeBron all the faults in their game without having ever stepped onto a basketball court yourself. I hope that those looking for insight in this thread are wise enough to recognize that some of the opinions expressed are not based any first hand knowledge; they might as well be from a Hollywood movie because they are simply the imagination of someone who doesn't know any better.

Equinox, thank you for at least adding a disclaimer so that readers know of your lack of experience. Maybe I'm being too harsh, but as someone who went through 19 years of marriage, it is highly offensive to me to read that either I or my ex was stupid, petty or selfish. Making mistakes doesn't necessarily equate to any of those in my opinion.

[wgf]

Originally Posted by CaelestisPeste To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's noticeable that divorce rates are on the rise and I was curious to why it was happening. I was wondering if it's possible that the fundamental cause is the inability to transition from infatuation to love and the inability to distinguish between the two, because once the dopamine, that causes that rush of excitement and euphoria, wears off, the couple, who thought they found the perfect companion, become aware of each others weaknesses. The feeling of jealousy, longing, fear, and passion, almost disappears entirely. I've read some articles and many them differentiated between the two emotional conditions, similar to how Larkin described it in a To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . Also, if the definition of love is true, does that mean we can love anyone, as long as we can stand them or simply just care for them? Is the concept of finding "true love", just infatuation? Is it really Disney or Hollywood's fault for instilling these delusional values on us (confusing us even more)? Or is it Western ideology?

Research Helen Fisher, she's an excellent resource who has been researching this subject in detail for over a decade and has several books on it... particularly good is her book "Why We Love"

And yes Hollywood's brainwashed young people into thinking infatuation = love and it will last forever if you pair up with "the right person."

[Deliberator]

I'd say in societies wherein marriages stay together you'll find a number of trends:
- The appearance of keeping up a societal norm is more important than individual happiness (for example, western culture in the 19th century)
- Mates are chosen based on their suitability as determined by family or society in general rather than on romantic love, leading to a very different expectation of both partners when first coming into the relationship
- Couples who are unhappy adulterate without considering divorce (whether or not the woman does depends on the culture)
- One or both members of the couple put up with the other through a sense of social duty rather than the expectation that they are supposed to be personally fulfilled

So when people are expected to choose their own mates based on their FEEEEEEELINGS of course there will be high divorce rates. Feelings change, and our "til death to us part" ideal really isn't in fitting with romantic love, as (from what I understand) most people fall in love with many people during the course of their lives.

[changos]

	Originally Posted by Dallyoop To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	but you all are forgetting one important fact... people lie. What I mean by this is that people are not always who they seem to be.

Wise words. I see this very often but people disregard it because of "love" and allow many lies to get into the relationship one by one until nothing can stay together, they loose track.

Also, some people are just plain idiots. In this forum you can say "I'm getting divoced" and most comments will try to blame you. And if you prove somehow that the other person is the problem, then the majority of idiots will say "it is your fault because you married a problem". There are very valid comments, but I don't know why or how some feel so damn right when they confess in other threads they can't even get a date.

People lie, and sometimes to themselves (they are not aware on how wrong they are... and so they make false promises, promises they can't keep... and as usually they will blame others...)

[wgf]

Originally Posted by Deliberator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'd say in societies wherein marriages stay together you'll find a number of trends: - The appearance of keeping up a societal norm is more important than individual happiness (for example, western culture in the 19th century) - Mates are chosen based on their suitability as determined by family or society in general rather than on romantic love, leading to a very different expectation of both partners when first coming into the relationship - Couples who are unhappy adulterate without considering divorce (whether or not the woman does depends on the culture) - One or both members of the couple put up with the other through a sense of social duty rather than the expectation that they are supposed to be personally fulfilled So when people are expected to choose their own mates based on their FEEEEEEELINGS of course there will be high divorce rates. Feelings change, and our "til death to us part" ideal really isn't in fitting with romantic love, as (from what I understand) most people fall in love with many people during the course of their lives.

Those trends are for people that don't grow up and need a means to cope...

There are many people who do make the transition from immature infatuation to loving for life successfully... not everyone who is married is miserable... despite what stereotypes want you to think.

[Hariar]

I'll start with the disclamer: I have never been in a relationship.

I find this topic really interesting though, both on a objective/scientific and a personal level. It seems the most common opinion is that the social norms, ideals and so on have changed a lot; and thus have given marriage a new role and meaning.

Thinking of marriage alone is missing out on impotant data, however. Not all partners marry. Two of my siblings have had the same partners for ~15 years or more and they both have several children with their partner; and neither of them are married. One of my siblings is married, and he is the youngest of the three, and has also been together with his partner the shortest.

So, back to the general concept of long lasting relationships, married or otherwise. I think it is only in the more extreme cases that it "impossible" for a relationship to go on; such as mental illness, abusive/deceitful partners and so on. Note, however, that I am not equalling relationship with love; living in the same house as partners means that the relationship goes on. The key is that people will often lack motivation for such a relationship to go on when the feelings have gone cold. Otherwise they have (non-adult) offspring together, it does indeed seem completely pointless - there would need to be a strong motivator not related to feelings between the two.

The part that really interests me, is where the development goes from here, and more specifically: which forms of interhuman relationships conform the best to human biology?

I really do not know, but it seems that it has negative effects on children if their parents split up, so an ideal solution should account for this somehow. But it seems that on average, someone will be "screwed over" one way or the other. Either the parents because they could have to live together with a partner they do not like anymore, or the children because they want their parents to stick together. Maybe it could be possible to reduce the probability of parents wanting to split, but this would probably have other drawbacks. A paradox seems to be that females are best suited to have children when they (and their male peers) are still going through crucial personal development/not "sure of who they are"; thus waiting with having children is not an ideal solution.

[wgf]

Marriage and living together function pretty much the same, and common law kicks in after a while as well which varies by state.

The relationship fallout rate is higher with common law arrangements than with formally married couples, but for the most part the emotional bond built is the very same one. It's just paperwork, but many people attach significant meaning to a formal bond and ceremony.

When speaking of marriage, I think you can include common law arrangements right along side those for the most part. There is no practical difference.

---------- Post added 06-07-2012 at 01:42 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Hariar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But it seems that on average, someone will be "screwed over" one way or the other. Either the parents because they could have to live together with a partner they do not like anymore, or the children because they want their parents to stick together. Maybe it could be possible to reduce the probability of parents wanting to split, but this would probably have other drawbacks. A paradox seems to be that females are best suited to have children when they (and their male peers) are still going through crucial personal development/not "sure of who they are"; thus waiting with having children is not an ideal solution.

You need to research some marriage science on this subject.

People who "do not like [each other] anymore" are not condemned to misery, there are many great processes out there managed by professional couples therapists that help couples to re-unite again.

The problem is mutli-fold

a. marriage therapy is costly.. in many cases over 200 dollars an hour
b. when you are feeling miserable about your marriage, the default response is to give up and run out (or cheat) not to properly educate yourself about your options
c. people don't have a lot of marriage science education, they often think that once the infatuation is over, the relationship must be too..
d. hollywood and other media mis-educate the general public about what to expect from love and marriage... They sell unrealistic ideals and the general public expects their spouses to live up to them
e. There is a common disrespect for couples hitting a rough patch in their marriage. Interlopers quite often will "homewreck" without any remorse simply because they are intefrering with a "bad marriage" that is "already over". No marriage can survive an interloping third party determined to split a couple up. The marriage may drag on for years, but it's a broken home rife with conflict, distrust, and upset

Just because a couple has hit a rough patch and are no longer infatuated does not mean they are condemned to be miserable or to split up.. there is a third solution : repair the disconnect and start enjoying each other again.

[Deliberator]

	Originally Posted by wgf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Those trends are for people that don't grow up and need a means to cope... There are many people who do make the transition from immature infatuation to loving for life successfully... not everyone who is married is miserable... despite what stereotypes want you to think.

Ah yes, I remember being happily married and thinking that it was all me and that luck had nothing to do with it. Not to say that maturity isn't crucial, rather that maturity can only get you so far sometimes. To speak metaphorically, it takes two to tango and you can only drag around a limp body for so long before your muscles give out.

Now may I just say that nowhere in my original comment did I claim that EVERY PERSON who gets married will find it impossible to achieve happiness, rather that if you observe a large group of people getting married you will inevitably find that at least some of them end up being unhappy, for a wide variety of reasons, some of which are not under their control. There is no such thing as a perfect system, and it's pretty naive to think that maturity is the one-and-only key to marital success.

[Hariar]

Originally Posted by wgf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You need to research some marriage science on this subject. People who "do not like [each other] anymore" are not condemned to misery, there are many great processes out there managed by professional couples therapists that help couples to re-unite again. [...] Just because a couple has hit a rough patch and are no longer infatuated does not mean they are condemned to be miserable or to split up.. there is a third solution : repair the disconnect and start enjoying each other again.

I take it that some couples/individuals simply lack the motivation to go through a process of repairment. I am also not convinced that positive feelings can be (re)ignited for all couples, so I drew a line between simply tolerating each other and feeling the feelings that tie persons together in a relationship that works like it should. The former should be much easier than the latter.

[wgf]

	Originally Posted by Deliberator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There is no such thing as a perfect system, and it's pretty naive to think that maturity is the one-and-only key to marital success.

No one here said marriage is perfect, in fact I have made it explicit that I think the contrary is the case.. it has many troubles that come with it...

And I also don't believe I at all suggested that maturity is the "one and only key to marital success"... But I do think maturity is probably the most critical key to carry in your pocket.

[curiousgeorge01]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	People change and if they change in opposite directions, why continue beyond trying to meet an unrealistic ideal? Paint me realistic in that if you have one short life to live, why spend it with someone you're no longer in love with?

Why make a promise you couldn't keep? But I get the feeling most people didn't know what they were getting into when they started.

[wgf]

	Originally Posted by Hariar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am also not convinced that positive feelings can be (re)ignited for all couples, so I drew a line between simply tolerating each other and feeling the feelings that tie persons together in a relationship that works like it should. The former should be much easier than the latter.

Another straw man.. OK. No one here suggested that positive feelings can be reignited for all couples... no one.

The re-ignition process isn't a matter of "feel the feelings" as much as it is to recreate the environment that gave rise to the feelings in the first place... feelings follow action, not the other way around.

I wouldn't suggest any couple remain condemned to "tolerate one another"... I am merely suggesting that exploring reconciliation is much more productive than infidelity is...

If you are going to spend six months making yourself feel better, rather than engaging in infidelity why not date your darn wife so you both have a chance of improving the situation? Infidelity is a selfish and destructive act that will only make things worse...

---------- Post added 06-08-2012 at 01:07 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why make a promise you couldn't keep? But I get the feeling most people didn't know what they were getting into when they started.

This is begging the question here... you don't know what promises you can keep until you make the effort.

Simply giving up because something is difficult makes things a foregone conclusion.

I would imagine no young couple can possibly fathom the full impact of what "til death do us part" will mean... it's a wild ride and more than half of it will be unexpected.

My only point is that keeping promises is a choice, an act of commitment, it isn't something outside yourself.

if you make a promise, you do everything in your power to keep it.

MOST people wait until something critical happens and use that as an excuse to bail at the first bell...

That's not commitment, its' a marriage of convenience...

Marriage does not work for people adopting "what have you done for me lately" policies to thier choices...

If you are going to score keep and run when you start losing out don't get married in the first place.. you cannot expect your spouse to be at your beck and call for the next fifty years... Nor can they expect you to be either...

[Hariar]

	Originally Posted by wgf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No one here suggested that positive feelings can be reignited for all couples... no one.

In that case, the straw man is yours. I have never said anything contradictive to

	People who "do not like [each other] anymore" are not condemned to misery, there are many great processes out there managed by professional couples therapists that help couples to re-unite again.

if a disclaimer is added it might not work for all.

[wgf]

	Originally Posted by Hariar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In that case, the straw man is yours. I have never said anything contradictive to if a disclaimer is added it might not work for all.

I am not going to add a "though not for all" explicit onto the end of every claim... It's more than reasonable to expect outliers in every data set. I don't see a need to write that out for every statement.

[LadySpock]

Divorce rates are not on the rise. Divorce rates have been steady since the 80s. Divorce rates are high among older people. Please do a little research on your facts.

Divorce happens for many reasons but the number one cause for divorce is marriage.

[wgf]

	Originally Posted by LadySpock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Divorce rates are not on the rise. Divorce rates have been steady since the 80s. Divorce rates are high among older people. Please do a little research on your facts. Divorce happens for many reasons but the number one cause for divorce is marriage.

Who said divorce rates were on the rise?

[curiousgeorge01]

Originally Posted by wgf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This is begging the question here... you don't know what promises you can keep until you make the effort. Simply giving up because something is difficult makes things a foregone conclusion. I would imagine no young couple can possibly fathom the full impact of what "til death do us part" will mean... it's a wild ride and more than half of it will be unexpected. My only point is that keeping promises is a choice, an act of commitment, it isn't something outside yourself. if you make a promise, you do everything in your power to keep it. MOST people wait until something critical happens and use that as an excuse to bail at the first bell... That's not commitment, its' a marriage of convenience... Marriage does not work for people adopting "what have you done for me lately" policies to thier choices... If you are going to score keep and run when you start losing out don't get married in the first place.. you cannot expect your spouse to be at your beck and call for the next fifty years... Nor can they expect you to be either...

Yes, IMO, the only reason for divorce is in the cases of abuse or if one of the partners completely stops trying. Getting a divorce b/c it's convenient to doesn't seem like a good reason at all. Otherwise, you probably should of never taken the vows.

That was my problem in another thread where some of the women said they divorced or ok with it b/c "it just wasn't satisfying anymore." My statement was that marriage is supposed to be work, it's building a partnership, sort of like a business; there's work and there's the benefit of work. If you just want to play, then don't get married.

[LadySpock]

	Originally Posted by wgf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Who said divorce rates were on the rise

The first sentence of the opening comment in this thread.

[Hariar]

	Originally Posted by wgf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am not going to add a "though not for all" explicit onto the end of every claim... It's more than reasonable to expect outliers in every data set. I don't see a need to write that out for every statement.

That's not the point. You said

	You need to research some marriage science on this subject.

and what else would this imply other than that than I would be saying that 'if a couple has fallen out of love, there is no way back'? Which is something that I did not say, I only put the focus on people that cannot stand each other; that they should be able to stand each other again. I was never excluding the possibility that the relationship could 'have a happy ending'. This particular focus was inspired by posts which focused on potential 'necessity' of individual divorces; and so I simply sought to add an extra perspective to this.

[wgf]

People that cannot "stand one another" can still reconcile... sorry, but it's a ridiculous idea to think they can't...

I have seen couples at each other's throats do the work and be crazy about each other again...

I worked with a social services agency for some time... it happens quite often.

[Hariar]

	Originally Posted by wgf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	People that cannot "stand one another" can still reconcile...

Which was what I said.

[Fecal McAngry]

I believe he is an ENTP. In any case, I highly recommend his books/talks/videos:


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[zibber]

	Originally Posted by wgf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	People that cannot "stand one another" can still reconcile... sorry, but it's a ridiculous idea to think they can't... I have seen couples at each other's throats do the work and be crazy about each other again... I worked with a social services agency for some time... it happens quite often.

Or not, and then they move on. That's fine, too.

Yaaay emotional maturity
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.

[Frenetic Tranq]

Growing apart happens when there is not shared goals, things to cooperate towards. Two people that hate each other get along pretty well if trapped on a desert island with the necessity of survival.

Divorce happens when individuals are not self-actualized.

[Thinker]

	Originally Posted by Frenetic Tranq To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Growing apart happens when there is not shared goals, things to cooperate towards. Two people that hate each other get along pretty well if trapped on a desert island with the necessity of survival. Divorce happens when individuals are not self-actualized.

Have you been watching re-runs of Gilligan's Island?
It is true to say 2 people when concentrating on survival won't kill one another ... But even that's a stretch.
The saddest issue in this thread is that most posters are arguing with those who have actually gone through divorce. In most situations experience is seen as a positive aspect when proffering advice. With divorce, it seems that most people refuse to listen to those with experience of a failed marriage ...... Perhaps that is the problem ... Right there .