[Nicole1975]

	Originally Posted by Wilderness To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Thanks everyone for your opinions! That's pretty much what I expected from INTJf. My real life discussion was especially frustrating because the guy is an INTJ and I wouldn't have ever expected him to place such a high value on social norms or appearances.

I feel like guy INTJs are more into societal norms than gal INTJs.

[CaelestisPeste]

I prefer women who apply little or no make up, especially if they're naturally attractive. If they're healthy, they exude a radiant "glow", more than make up will ever provide. And if they're healthy and pregnant -- Woah! Besides, make up damages the skin.

[Nicole1975]

I hate fake up and heels. I'm not ruining my body/skin for any man. I wear make up on special occasions (weddings going somewhere extra fancy, job interviews-but hell I haven't been getting jobs wearing the crap so I might as well not bother). I usually bring up early in the relationship how I feel about these things. When I was smaller, I got hit on all the time and never really wore make up. Now I'm bigger (but getting smaller again) and I find that guys aren't more likely to hit on me when I'm wearing it. However, when my weight is lower, this is what influences men to hit on me.

Personally, make up makes my face feel so disgusting. It feels like someone smeared shit all over it... oh, wait someone did-ME! Okay, okay I brushed it on instead of smearing it on. I prefer my skin to breathe!

[Aboni]

I only wear little make up in certain occasion. In other days, just natural..No make up.

[Nicole1975]

	Originally Posted by CaelestisPeste To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Besides, make up damages the skin.

but get most women to admit this? Never happen.

[Coralaisly]

What is your primary reason for wearing makeup?

Reason? I need a reason to wear makeup? I love makeup. I worked as a makeup artist for a spell because it's fun. I dated an acrobat who wore stage makeup and hang out in the metal & goth scenes where it's completely common for EVERYONE to wear makeup. For me, it's theater. I can change my mask to match my mood and my outfit. For someone who's as much of a social chameleon as I am, and likes to play with her appearance as much as I do, it's pretty much a given that I have an abundance of differnt products in varying degrees of sparkle to paint myself up at any given time.

I can look like I wandered out of the 40's, with a dusting of freckles that weren't there a few minutes ago & looking just slightly flushed & bright eyed in under 10 minutes if I so choose. I can also look like I belong in a silent movie or an anime if I want to. Japanese themed tea party? I'm down, give me 20 minutes and I'll have my Kimono on & be painted up & ready to go. You might have to help me with my Obi, though... It always gives me issues...

I've probably spent enough money at MAC (and I have my license, so MAC isn't all that expensive for me) to buy a few iPods and then some. I have an entire tackle box (the large ones) filled with makeup and a smaller one filled with application gizmos. I've even pulled out my airbrush to apply before. I didn't buy it for that, but it does the job quite well.

How much of it is to attract, please, or demonstrate you love and value your SO?

None. I do it for me. I demonstrate my love for my SO in other ways. I've never had a guy complain that he didn't feel loved when he was with me. I'm pretty obviously caring towards my guys.

What would you do if your SO brought up such an issue with you?

We would have an issue. I don't get made up every day, and if he wants me to, he's gonna be disappointed. It's incredibly superficial to expect me to get all done up for you every day. I'm not here to decorate his world.

[Noelle]

Perhaps it is shallow, but when I put on makeup, it is because I like how I look with it on.

I don't really care if my SO likes it. If he needs me to be in make-up to like me I'm not interested in continuing a relationship with him. (Because there will be a time when cosmetics fail to mask the signs of aging.)

I show my love for my SO in other ways, by actions and making our lives as successful and harmonious as I can. If it isn't enough and they'd prefer to find someone who wishes to express their love by painting their face, well then, the door is readily available.

[2obvious]

(This is actually quite interesting.)

It’s difficult to relate to makeup as anything but an additive--as a guy, it's not even a culturally acceptable choice. Searching for a gender parallel, I came up with the suit and tie.

	Originally Posted by Samia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I do it because it makes ME feel good.

Maybe this is why some women enjoy makeup? Part of me wants to cry “social conditioning!” But, using the suit analogy, perhaps, despite conforming to a cultural norm, exercising the choice just makes some women feel...polished? Is it unreasonable to derive pride and esteem from feeling well-groomed?

It’s still pretty alien, nevertheless.

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Makeup is fun and provides different looks.

Is it “fun” in that it provides different looks, though? What’s so novel about applying makeup? Or is it the sensation after the application? (I don’t get where the “fun” comes into play.)

	Originally Posted by Jeanne To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Also it is a way of expressing yourself.

	Originally Posted by Xanthippe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's a luxury, and an expressive statement.

Elaborate, please.

(For context: I’ve spent a good portion of my life as an artist. I don’t ever think I considered it a form of “self-expression.” It was a tool for communication, quite often. But maybe that’s what you meant--I have a very literal take on language.)

[intjistp]

Why to use:
- to look better, attractive
- to get more self-confident
- to try out something different
- it is fun!
- you want to use it

Why not to use:
- Shame
- Social pressure
- traditional roles
- you don't want to use it

[Shoshana]

Men don't get it--and despite all their protestations, I know few men who dislike makeup that's tastefully administered.

I am suspicious of men who try to dissuade their SO from looking attractive and hot, i.e. wearing makeup. That's the type that tends to be jealous and possessive and controlling. Yuck.

[NicholasIv]

From my experience women wear makeup for themselves not for their SO. As far as physical intimacy goes for myself the textural difference between makeup vs no makeup favors the later.

I do not feel that women wearing makeup shows that she loves and values you, it's presumptuous to state that all men are attracted to the same aesthetic and if she valued your idea of asthetic in the decision to choose to or not to wear makeup the decision wouldn't be automatic yes, assuming the SO had a preference at all.

I would expect the same behavior objectively between a naturally attractive woman as to a naturally unatractive women, but the idea of a human making decisions objectively is largly unrealistic. From an objective standpoint taking into consideration the subjectivity of the question I wouldn't expect the same behavior between even two naturally attractive women.

There is an inherent value in natural beauty. It's impossible to compare two types of beauty objectively, so the argument of is natural beaty more valuable than artificial beauty is entirely subjective (and in my case again invalid, I believe society is a result of humans which are a result of nature - the product of the product of nature is natural). The question is there inherent value in putting in effort is very case by case, for example is there value in cooking your SO a beautiful salmon dinner by candlelight for your fifth anniversary? It would seem the answer is yes, but in the case that your SO hates salmon/doesn't eat fish... definitely not. Stating putting on makeup objectively is valuable as putting in effort is incorrect.

Putting on makeup because it improves your self image is potentially a possitive, though arguably unhealthy as it leads to potentially a substance dependant self image. Doing it to attract those of the preferred gender is potentially a negative as presumably you are in a commited relationship. The question shouldn't be, "is this good or bad" it should be "why is the choice made" and "if based on a relationship how does this choice reflect on that relationship"

Makeup for the wrong reason is analogous to lying, makeup for the right reason isn't a thing.
If there is social obligations to wear makeup, society is wrong.

[jenuwin]

I actually really like doing my make up, but I don't do it often. It requires too much time and effort. I find it fun though. Think of applying make up as a kind of art, and it does require skills to some degree. I'm pretty sure you can tell good application from bad application.

Anyway, I just wanted to bring up a point. Some people have bad acne scars or acne that really brings down their self-esteem. They have to rely on make up to look "normal." I mean.. isn't it true that most people find a person with nice skin much more attractive than a person with a scarred up face? Some people have such bad acne or scars that others even find them repulsive. I mean, yes, you can argue that make up would just damage a woman's skin even more or say that she shouldn't conform to society's standards. But, put yourself in her shoes.. if she's always getting weird looks from people when she goes out because of her scars, can you really tell her that everything is fine? That she shouldn't care about what she looks like? She can have the greatest personality in the world, but everyone's first impression of her.. is ultimately how she looks. Please don't forget that scarring is not something that you can fix. Overtime, it could fade, but you can never fully get rid of it (unless.. you do some sort of cosmetic surgery).

While some people are blessed with great skin and don't need it for the other sex to find them attractive, others are not as fortunate. Just don't be so quick to judge when you see a woman with make up on. Seriously, make up is not always for vain purposes. It's not as evil as some people make it out to be.

[Philanthropist]

It never ceases to amaze me how often people attempt to psychoanalyze why people wear makeup, as if all people who wear makeup do it for the same reason. To make things a little more interesting, couldn't we analyze for a minute why people wear jeans? Or hoodies? Or ballet flats?

	Originally Posted by Wilderness To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What do you think about this?

So he correlates putting effort into one's appearance with how much one loves their SO. I could see his point if a woman put a lot of effort into her appearance when she first met her SO, which dissipated after they were together for a while. Then you might want to start asking questions.

If, on the other hand, a man chooses to date a woman who (he knows) usually doesn't wear makeup, he shouldn't be surprised when she doesn't pick up the habit.

	Originally Posted by Wilderness To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Women - What is your primary reason for wearing makeup?

I enjoy wearing makeup, and as I am artistic, I have a special talent for applying it. I am asked on a regular basis whether I'm a makeup artist, a career path I seriously considered for a while (although the job prospects don't appeal to me).

	Originally Posted by Wilderness To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How much of it is to attract, please, or demonstrate you love and value your SO?

None. Although if he really didn't like a certain look, I wouldn't continue to wear it. Naturally, he values and considers my opinion when selecting clothes, accessories and hairstyles also.

	Originally Posted by Wilderness To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I generally don't need makeup and have been told so by both men and women

Neither do I. But I enjoy wearing it. I have no idea why people assume that I think I need makeup.

---------- Post added 02-02-2012 at 04:08 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Nicole1975 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	but get most women to admit this? Never happen.

Ever heard of paraben free cosmetics?

---------- Post added 02-02-2012 at 04:11 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We talk about burqas and niqabs like there's no Western equivalent.

When was the last time a woman was stoned or gang raped because she wasn't wearing makeup?

[Xanthippe]

Originally Posted by 2obvious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(This is actually quite interesting.) It’s difficult to relate to makeup as anything but an additive--as a guy, it's not even a culturally acceptable choice. Searching for a gender parallel, I came up with the suit and tie. Maybe this is why some women enjoy makeup? Part of me wants to cry “social conditioning!” But, using the suit analogy, perhaps, despite conforming to a cultural norm, exercising the choice just makes some women feel...polished? Is it unreasonable to derive pride and esteem from feeling well-groomed?

Yes, I think there is some truth to the suit-and-tie analogy; I wouldn't dream of performing on stage, walking into a high-pressure professional situation or appearing at a formal event without at least a little makeup on. Going into one of these situations well-dressed but without makeup would be like showing up in a suit, but with trainers and obviously dirty hair, maybe.

	Is it “fun” in that it provides different looks, though? What’s so novel about applying makeup? Or is it the sensation after the application? (I don’t get where the “fun” comes into play.)

Yes, it is fun to be able to look subtly different in different situations - and useful. I can usually mask my age, for instance, within a range of five years or so, by varying how conservative and/or obvious my makeup is. Maybe it's an INTP thing, but I like to vary the way I act and look day-to-day.

(An example of the differences achievable through the use of makeup: using darker eye makeup and lighter lipstick tends to emphasise the eyes, often making the wearer look more sensual/more 'rock-n-roll'/more romantic. Emphasising the lips with bright lipstick and playing down the eyes gives more of a 'good girl' or coy impression, in my opinion. The first four pictures on this site give a good indication of the contrast on the same women:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)

That aside, it feels good, depending on the kind of makeup. I use primarily powders, which keep my oily skin feeling cleaner and lighter. It feels nice to massage the powder in with the brush - sort of invigorating in the morning. It also gets me out of my head, which might be part of the 'fun'.

	Originally Posted by Xanthippe comment about self-expression/luxury (For context: I’ve spent a good portion of my life as an artist. I don’t ever think I considered it a form of “self-expression.” It was a tool for communication, quite often. But maybe that’s what you meant--I have a very literal take on language.)

It's fair to say the 'art' of makeup is different from the fine arts in a crucial way. To me, makeup is more like interior design or cooking - a concrete reflection of one's likes and dislikes, as well an aesthetic thing. I don't think makeup (particularly everyday makeup) can be intellectual or edifying in the same way a painting or piece of music can be.

Interior design and gourmet cooking are luxuries because they rely on resources (time, and the money to buy specifically the right ingredients or components). They are self-expressive in that they reflect personal aesthetic preferences - a minimalistic, modern decor reflects something about the house's owner, and a person who regularly cooks heavy, hearty meals is different from a person who mostly cooks fish and salads. Similarly, dark lips with black eye makeup suggests a 'gothic' or other 'alternative' outlook, whereas more neutral colours look a little more conservative.

To sum up, makeup as self-expression is like clothing or tattoos as self-expression - and as most kinds of self-expression require time/effort/money, they are small but real luxuries. I hope that was clear and not too rambling...

[Storm]

I only time I put on full make-up is for professional events and similar. Like 2obvious said, it's about feeling polished. It's a bit like putting on war-paint. If you want a male equivalent, I'd say the close-shave or well-manicured facial hair complete with after-shave and some kind of hair gel is closest. Is make-up the result of sexual expectations of women? Yes. But, when you're trying to make a good impression on other people, some traditional garb will be required. And make-up doesn't impede my movement or make me uncomfortable for it to be worth casting aside. (*cough* high heels *cough*)

[JanC]

This thread needs more pics.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by 2obvious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is it “fun” in that it provides different looks, though? What’s so novel about applying makeup? Or is it the sensation after the application? (I don’t get where the “fun” comes into play.)

When you buy clothing, is it always with comfort and price in mind or are there other factors involved? If there are no other factors involved, would you wear a hot pink pair of pants, if it was priced at $3 and proved to be extremely comfortable/practical? Would you wear these pants to work, a funeral, or any other occasion? If not, why not?

When you buy glasses to wear. Are you solely looking for the least expensive and comfortable pair or do you care about style and how it looks on you?

Anyways, makeup is fun, same as clothing and fashion can be fun. I can't really explain fun beyond a quick, superficial form of enjoyment. It's like trying to explain laughing and why it's fun to laugh. I could get into a neurochemical explanation but it wouldn't explain the feel of the emotion.

[PerlaPan20]

Everything is good in moderation.
I love make up, a lot and i like to wear it.
but i don't put on a mask of make up you know.
It also depends on the occasion. If its an every day look what wrong with a little mascara eyeliner and lip gloss or lips stick. Of course the eyeliner line thin, just to enhance the long lash look, and a nude lip color.
when you are going out to something formal there is nothing wrong with powder or foundation.

It all depends on how much you put on? what time of day? The occasion? and if you know how to put it on.

[IotaNull]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can't really explain fun beyond a quick, superficial form of enjoyment. It's like trying to explain laughing and why it's fun to laugh. I could get into a neurochemical explanation but it wouldn't explain the feel of the emotion.

What people forget when trying to logically analyse emotional preferences like this is that what's considered fun is simply a matter of the chosen premises, not something to be proven or concluded. Logic is only good for analysing the link between premise and conclusion. Fun is an end to be defined in and of itself, and it's categorically impossible to prove that what someone enjoys is in any way "invalid".

[ctiquila]

Originally Posted by Wilderness To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What is your primary reason for wearing makeup? How much of it is to attract, please, or demonstrate you love and value your SO? What would you do if your SO brought up such an issue with you? Is there an inherent value in natural beauty? Is it more valuable than fabricated beauty? Is there an inherent value in putting in effort for your SO, even if the effort is unnecessary by objective standards?

I didn't used to wear makeup. I couldn't be bothered by it. I would watch my older sister apply it and think she looked better without all the fuss. But I guess the more time I spend around people the more I notice there is a modicum of expectation in regards to appearance-- women who do not have at least a little makeup on are hippies, don't have money or ...
perhaps it's just where I live: Texas-stereotype women have big hair and tons of makeup. Anywho, I started wearing eye makeup when I had to be at work. Call it war paint. A way of hiding a part of me from the world, even. At least, that's the way it started. Now I wear it more because I like the way I look with it on and because I'd rather have people looking at my eyes than anywhere else on my body.
As for my SO, he'll take me any way he can get me, so I wear what I want.

I think people should just accept others at 'face' value. Why should it matter, at first glance, why someone wears makeup or not? I love people who are comfortable in their own skins, b/c it shines thru in spite of what they look like on the outside. Mind, heart, and soul first. Everything else is window dressing.

[alicewonders]

The first thing that pops in my head is "Ok so what do males do to show appreciation for their female companion? Should we start expecting them to wear makeup or do sometime to slightly improve their image too?" Sounds like your friend is just obsessed with women and makeup. It is just an image enhancer it is not real. If you really like someone you shouldn't care if they wore makeup or not. Plus makeup is expensive, is he going to pay for high quality makeup for his girlfriend?

[seekingclarity]

I can't imagine how a man and woman would end up together if she prefers not wearing make up and he thinks she should. Why would they even be attracted to one another in the first place having such a fundamental difference of opinion? A guy who likes a made up face will notice made up faces. He won't be drawn to a woman wearing no make up.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by 2obvious To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Maybe this is why some women enjoy makeup? Part of me wants to cry “social conditioning!” But, using the suit analogy, perhaps, despite conforming to a cultural norm, exercising the choice just makes some women feel...polished? Is it unreasonable to derive pride and esteem from feeling well-groomed?

Rephrase:

Is it unreasonable to feel comfortable when operating safely within the bounds of convention?

Of course not. Just realize that you're never going to escape convention in this way.

[Nicole1975]

Originally Posted by alicewonders To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The first thing that pops in my head is "Ok so what do males do to show appreciation for their female companion? Should we start expecting them to wear makeup or do sometime to slightly improve their image too?" Sounds like your friend is just obsessed with women and makeup. It is just an image enhancer it is not real. If you really like someone you shouldn't care if they wore makeup or not. Plus makeup is expensive, is he going to pay for high quality makeup for his girlfriend?

That's how it is with men. They want so much of women when they have so little to offer.

Him: 40, obese, no job, living with his parents, looks old with wrinkly skin and drying/graying hair

You: 25, skinny, pretty, already have a good job and about to move out of your parents house...

He will harass you because he wants you and doesn't even realize that he has nothing to offer you. Men just think they should get what they want even if they don't deserve it-just keep trying, right? WRONG!

[sevans]

	Originally Posted by Wilderness To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Men - Do you feel that a woman wearing makeup shows that she loves and values you? Would you expect the same effort of a naturally attractive woman? What if the woman was so attractive and flawless she truly didn't need makeup?

If I fall in love with a woman, I usually find out at some point that she doesn't actually wear makeup. Makeup is cheating in my mind, I'd rather not have to deal with a girl that has to spend an hour getting dolled up just to go out for dinner. Honestly, I'd feel lied to and insulted if a woman showed up in heavy makeup to a date and it could be over immediately.