[AnaK]

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By Judith Warner Monday, Aug. 29, 2011 Simon Baron-Cohen of the University of Cambridge is taking a broader view of mating habits and their consequences In 2003, Hughes wrote an article for the MIT alumni website, raising the question of whether "the 'abnormal' condition known as Asperger's syndrome" could be "remarkably similar to the 'normal' functioning of an engineer's mind," and was contacted by dozens of MIT alumni, many married to alums of similar schools, who also had children on the autism spectrum. Were their kids, he wondered, getting a double dose of some kind of autism-causing genes? ... Across the Atlantic, Simon Baron-Cohen, director of the Autism Research Centre at the University of Cambridge, had been asking himself some very similar questions about the families who were visiting his clinic. In the late 1990s, he'd come to believe that a common cognitive profile — a tendency toward what he called systemizing (focusing on systems and how they work), combined with noted deficits in empathy, or the ability to relate to and read others — existed both in people with autism and, to a much lesser extent, in many of their relatives. He'd begun to theorize that this sort of brain type would be common in any population that brought people with very strong math, science and tech skills to cluster together — and to think that if these high systemizers were choosing one another as mates, they might be particularly likely to have autistic children. ... Assortative mating — or, in common language, the tendency of birds of a feather to flock together — has long been known to play a big role in how people choose their marriage partners. Traditionally, people have assortatively mated, or sorted themselves, by height, socioeconomic standing, religion — and psychiatric profile. People with depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, ADHD, personality disorders and substance-abuse issues are all more likely to marry other people who either have those problems or have family members who do. "People are attracted to each other based on their similarities," says Carol Mathews, a psychiatrist with the UCSF Medical Center who has studied the role of assortative mating in psychiatric disorders. "It's not necessarily a conscious choice." .... When Baron-Cohen began his work with autistic children in the 1980s, the condition was believed to exist in only 1 out of 2,500 kids. Today 1 in 110 is thought to be on the spectrum. This explosion in diagnoses appears to be linked to much more than just better screening. There are genetic factors at work too, aided, it is believed, by still unknown environmental factors and perhaps — the assortative-mating theory proposes — by social change as well. The same decades that saw a vast increase in the prevalence of autism witnessed an unprecedented movement of women into math and science professions. This meant that future parents with similar talents and temperaments — not just like-minded but like-brained — began getting together to a greater extent than ever before. The dotcom boom raised the social capital of high systemizers enormously, making them more desirable as mates. It is possible, Baron-Cohen has suggested, that people who have Asperger's or who simply have much higher than average levels of autistic traits without any full-blown disorder have been marrying and having children at greater rates than ever before. In June, however, Baron-Cohen's theory breathed new life when he published in the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders the results of a major survey of more than 62,000 schoolchildren in three regions of the Netherlands, one of which, Eindhoven, is known as the Dutch Silicon Valley. The researchers found that two to four times as many children in Eindhoven had been diagnosed with autism as children in Haarlem and Utrecht, areas of equivalent size and similar socioeconomic profiles that don't have the same concentration of IT workers and engineers. Read more: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Fishism]

Oh, this is about Autism?

When I first glanced at it, I thought it said....

"Two NT's Marry = Greater Chance of AWESOME!"

[AnaK]

I especially liked this quote from the article:

Baron-Cohen most dramatically wandered into fraught territory in 2003, when he published the book The Essential Difference, which called autism a manifestation of an extreme "male brain" — one that's "predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems," as opposed to a "female brain," one that's "predominantly hard-wired for empathy" — and ended up on the wrong side of the debate on science and sex differences. Read more: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Latro]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I especially liked this quote from the article:

Ugh, this really bothers me a lot--the idea of the phrasing is to give deliberately stereotype about *the idea*, not about people, to give people a name to build an idea on and then giving it description to build up the idea. The quotes should've made this obvious. Instead it was taken as stereotyping people, saying men are analytical and women are empathetic. *sigh*

Anyway, this doesn't surprise me. I don't think high functioning autistic individuals are nearly as different as some people think.

[Distance]

Logical fail between the thread title and the article. Not all IT workers and engineers are NTs. If that were the case, you AnaK would be an NT (programmer) whereby you're blatantly not since the majority of your judgments are definitively value based, rather than logical evaluations.

Since there's no link to the study, wonder if this study was controlled for age of parents, whereby the older either or both biological parent, the greater risk of autism. Also, autism runs in families but heritability is still being disputed.

One personal observation is that autties and aspies appear to mistype as NTs, particularly INTJs and INTPs but when you drill down into their decision-making, once again you'll find they're primarily value based.

[IotaNull]

Most Aspies are INTJs (not sure about other types of autism). I believe autism is genetic. That ought to provide a good explanation.

Distance: "Primarily value based" -- as opposed to what? Logical decision making is only good insofar as you have premises to begin with, which are what most people would consider values. Am I misunderstanding you here?

[Distance]

Iota, one is inter/intra-personal oriented (Fe/Fi), the other sources from objective facts/axioms or subjective interpretation of objective facts/axioms (Te/Ti).

I'm curious how you're able to make such a definitive statement about aspies being INTJs.

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Logical fail between the thread title and the article. Not all IT workers and engineers are NTs.

I know I'm not an NT. I would say the NT brain is geared toward "understanding and building systems", as is discussed in the article. It is true the article never explicitly mentioned MBTI. I made that leap, and I don't think it's a logical fail. Although it's funny how the word 'fail' is used on this forum.

Maybe I should have said INT instead of NT?

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I know I'm not an NT. I would say the NT brain is geared toward "understanding and building systems", as is discussed in the article. It is true the article never explicitly mentioned MBTI. I made that leap, and I don't think it's a logical fail. Although it's funny how the word 'fail' is used on this forum. Maybe I should have said INT instead of NT?

High systemisers aren't all autties or aspies, whereby they're also not all NTs. And yes, it is a logical fail.

Who cares about INT or NT since neither is accurate?

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	High systemisers aren't all autties or aspies, whereby they're also not all NTs. And yes, it is a logical fail. Who cares about INT or NT since neither is accurate?

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	INTJs are known as the "Systems Builders" of the types.

'N' usually means you see the big picture and think in terms of systems instead of details. And 'T's generally are not as empathetic. I still don't think it's a fail.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. 'N' usually means you see the big picture and think in terms of systems instead of details. And 'T's generally are not as empathetic. I still don't think it's a fail.

Basic question. Are all NTs autties and aspies?

[IotaNull]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Iota, one is inter/intra-personal oriented (Fe/Fi), the other sources from objective facts/axioms or subjective interpretation of objective facts/axioms (Te/Ti).

Fair enough. I don't think "values" is the best way of phrasing that, though; simply "emotions/al" would be better.

	I'm curious how you're able to make such a definitive statement about aspies being INTJs.

I'll freely admit that I'm not certain about it, but the disproportionate number of INTJ Aspies I know of and the fact that it's commonly suggested that AS and being INTJ are one and the same thing lends some credibility to it. I think the most likely letter for them to differ on is N/S; most Aspies tend to like routines and by extension traditions (albeit not the traditional sorry type.).

I'm not saying all Aspies are INTJs, but they do seem to be overrepresented among them.

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Basic question. Are all NTs autties and aspies?

No. And I never said that they are and neither did the article. They did say that Asperger's and autism shared some traits that are associated with NT's, and that if a child inherits those traits from both parents, in effect getting a double dose, they may be more likely to suffer from autism or Asperger's.

You and I always have this same issue. You are too absolute. You can make everything seem wrong if you only frame it in absolutes. Learn about shades of gray and increased probabilities and you might understand more of where I am coming from.

[IotaNull]

Aspergers is not, to my knowledge, just a specific mish-mash of traits, and it's certainly not something that can be gained if you don't already have it at birth.

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by Iota Null To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Aspergers is not, to my knowledge, just a specific mish-mash of traits, and it's certainly not something that can be gained if you don't already have it at birth.

Did anyone read the article? Jeezzz!!!
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[Distance]

Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No. And I never said that they are and neither did the article. They did say that Asperger's and autism shared some traits that are associated with NT's, and that if a child inherits those traits from both parents, in effect getting a double dose, they may be more likely to suffer from autism or Asperger's. You and I always have this same issue. You are too absolute. You can make everything seem wrong if you only frame it in absolutes. Learn about shades of gray and increased probabilities and you might understand more of where I am coming from.

You're accusing me of absolutes whereby you're the person who fails to understand distinctions?

Take a look at your thread header:

Two NTs marry --> greater chance of autism???

How is this not a logical fail and a form of absolutism, whereby the article has nothing to do with MBTI type and not all NTs are autties and aspies and not all engineers and IT workers are NTs? As well, as previously mentioned, there are higher rates of progeny displaying signs of autism/AS, based on the biological age of either or both parents. Autism/AS runs in families whereby heritability is still being debated.

If you look at engineers and IT professionals in general, there is a greater percentage of systemisers. That I'm not disputing. But it wouldn't be much of a leap to suggest that many have systemised their own lives by setting timelines for goal achievement. This can easily equate to not breeding prior to becoming more financially secure. The next logical step would be that they're older prior to breeding, hence a circling back to the greater biological age of parent(s).

Quite frankly, it's as irrational for me to state:

Two NFs marry --> greater chance of murder due to hysteria???

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Take a look at your thread header: Two NTs marry --> greater chance of autism??? How is this not a logical fail and a form of absolutism,

Ummmmm...... "Greater chance" is not an absolute. It means a greater chance. The question marks in the thread title also indicate it is a question, thereby not an absolute.

	whereby the article has nothing to do with MBTI type

No, but the traits he is describing fit with NT types, particularly INT types.

	and not all NTs are autties and aspies and not all engineers and IT workers are NTs?

No argument there. That was never said by anyone other than you.

As well, as previously mentioned, there are higher rates of progeny displaying signs of autism/AS, based on the biological age of either or both parents. Autism/AS runs in families whereby heritability is still being debated. If you look at engineers and IT professionals in general, there is a greater percentage of systemisers. That I'm not disputing. But it wouldn't be much of a leap to suggest that many have systemised their own lives by setting timelines for goal achievement. This can easily equate to not breeding prior to becoming more financially secure. The next logical step would be that they're older prior to breeding, hence a circling back to the greater biological age of parent(s).

That could very well be the reason for the correlation.

	Quite frankly, it's as irrational for me to state: Two NFs marry --> greater chance of murder due to hysteria???

Got any reasoning to back it up?

[Distance]

1. There's insufficient information in the article to even suggest that the study has much validity, especially considering how the study was localised within one culture, one small area within this single culture.
2. The article is mute whether biological parental age and heritability have been controlled for.
3. There's no reference to MBTI types in the article, whereby systemisers are in general T-types of S/N varieties whereby based on cognitive functions, F-types also have T functions. It would be just as "vaguely hand wavey" to create a thread titled "NT and NF marry -- greater chance of autism???".
4. Autism/AS manifests in less than 1% of the general population, where within the study group, it purportedly manifests between 2 - 4%.

As far evidence of murder between NFs due to hysteria, consider hysteria and the emotional landscape of NFs. Also, ummmmm...... "Greater chance" is not an absolute. It means a greater chance. The question marks in the thread title also indicate it is a question, thereby not an absolute...

[Haumea]

It sounds highly plausible to me.

	There's insufficient information in the article to even suggest that the study has much validity, especially considering how the study was localised within one culture, one small area within this single culture.

Well, it may or it may not, but complaining that a piece of mainstream journalism is not informative enough is like complaining that water is wet. You can do that with virtually anything you're inclined to disbelieve.

[Distance]

	Originally Posted by Haumea To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, it may or it may not, but complaining that a piece of mainstream journalism is not informative enough is like complaining that water is wet. You can do that with virtually anything you're inclined to disbelieve.

I question most mainstream journalism articles that attempt to discuss studies since most often, current...journalism...is more about sensationalism, rather than focusing on reporting facts.

[scorpiomover]

Auties are more like extreme INTPs, who have been not been allowed to develop at their own pace. They live in their own heads quite comfortably, and are extremely sensitive to external sensory perceptions. As a result, their brains are literally overloaded with sensory perceptions, and they retreat into their inner world, to get some space, and to process all that extra data.

Any extroverts, sensors and judgers, who might be worried about their kids turning into auties, are more than likely to benefit from learning to appreciate the value of INTP skills and abilities, and to be very sensitive to their children, to know when it is better to give their kids room to breathe, and to develop at a pace much more suited to their way of handling the extroverted sensory world.

[Axion004]

I have asperger's syndrome and my parents are ESTJ(Maybe ISTJ) and INFJ. I am NT and very different from both of my parents.

[psykhe]

	Originally Posted by AnaK
	Two NTs marry --> greater chance of autism???

Epic fail.

We're talking about MBTI and autism, aren't we?

[AkaruiRain]

This kinda feels bad to say: but I want an autistic kid--the kind that turns into child prodigies. :P

[notaboson]

MBTI and autism doesn't correlate on the level of offspring. Having certain personality traits that fit into the MBTI, does not mean that you also have autistic characteristics.
I think that autism is greatly misunderstood in the first place and many people don't want to realize that autistics have neurological problems, and these neurological obstacles are solely rooted in genetic problems.
If both parents carry genes responsible for autism, there's a 50% chance for their offspring to be autistic, if the male is perceivably autistic and the female is just the carrier of the gene. If the female is definitely autistic, then there's nearly a 100% chance for their offspring to be autistic.
There's also a correlation between age of the parents and autism in their offspring. The reason behind it is simple. DNA replication mistakes occur in meiosis (process of cell division which produces sexual reproduction cells) at a much greater rate with increasing age. The older the parents are, the more likely their offspring will experience genetical problems.