[Latro]

How long is a reasonable online dating message in the first....let's say 4 emails back and forth? I am ignoring the very first contact, because that is different, but I am not ignoring the first response to the first contact. I have two situations from the last week in mind, which are in the spoilers below. Both of the women are on the intellectual side, though I don't think I would put either of them on the nerdy side. For what it's worth, the second one is ENTP, and the first is probably some flavor of IT.
[HIDE="#1"]A woman sent me a short message asking about one of the things I said I "spend a lot of time thinking about". My response there, the same day, was 3 paragraphs, so about 300 words, and a few questions directed at her on the subject. I thought this was appropriate; you're asking me about something I think about a lot, so you should expect I have a lot to say about it, right? These were both yesterday, and she hasn't responded. (This one doesn't surprise me too much, although she has been online.)[/HIDE]
[HIDE="#2"]
I sent a woman a message consisting of an inference I made about her MBTI type based on a writing sample and some statements/questions about a shared interest. That first message was moderate in length, about two paragraphs, one for each topic, so about 200 words. It got an enthusiastic response of a similar length, including the sentence "you've definitely provoked my curiosity" and some other questions about my profile, a week later.

I responded two days later. That response was almost certainly too long; it wound up being 1000 words. This was split up into 10 paragraphs, which were split up further into 4 topics (well, 3.5, since her MBTI and my MBTI were two of them), all of which were directly relevant. I didn't plan for it to be so long, but each of those topics was between 100 and 400 words, and then I didn't know how to shorten it when it was done. (I even ignored a 5th topic, about which she asked a question as well, because of the sheer length of the message.) I haven't gotten a response three days later. She has also been online.[/HIDE]
If you were on the other end, would this seem too long? My googling has suggested that really long early messages come off as desperate. I'm not desperate (at least I don't feel desperate, but you guys might think I'm desperate with all these threads), though I am a bit frustrated (in fact I was going to disable my account before the women above came along). If they are too long, any suggestions for keeping them shorter?

(Also, no need to say "two women is too few, send lots of messages to people", these were just the ones to whom I've sent long messages, there have been a couple others.)

[Causa Mortis]

300 words is tl
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r for most. 3-4 sentences with no more than 2 commas each. Length gets viewed as desperate, at least that's what I read when I get a really long message.

Short and witty is where its at.

[Apophenia]

Yeah, don't bring someone you just met a wedding cake on valentines day. Keep it short, listen to how they respond and continue with their input.

Plus, short is cool. Short suggests you're too busy doing interesting things to send her a message. Her imagination about you is far more likely to work in your favor than your paragraphs about you will. Keep it short!

[zibber]

I send long as fuck messages and get long as fuck responses, and vice versa.

I think you're analyzing this way too much. Just message people you feel like messaging and write until you are done writing.

(edit: This seems pretty obvious, but that also means: don't contact people if you really have to think hard to come up with stuff to write, and/or be in any way disingenuous in the hopes of appealing to them. But I really, really hope that's obvious.)

---------- Post added 01-02-2012 at 07:45 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Latro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am a bit frustrated (in fact I was going to disable my account before the women above came along).

Yeah, that's pretty unfortunate. There's not a big line between frustration and desperation. You don't want anything to do with any of that shit.

[KeithP]

I've found the same thing happening. One girl though commented how she was excited to get online to read the novels I'd write back to her daily.

A lot of girls like being precise. Whether it involves being precise in three sentences or less or in four paragraphs. Keep it short until you draw them in and try to keep your responses at the length at which they're responding to you, and maybe try to build them larger as they build theirs.

A part of it is the introvert being let loose in text and giving explanations which they couldn't really care for just yet. Afterall, they've never met you!

[Apophenia]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I send long as fuck messages and get long as fuck responses, and vice versa. I think you're analyzing this way too much. Just message people you feel like messaging and write until you are done writing.

Maybe if it's reeeeally interesting it doesn't matter, but why would there be question if it were working?

Maybe learn how to use short messages in addition to your long ones, and see which one serves your purpose best. Zib's right, it's not wrong. (I think some might believe that one's natural impulse is their truest representation of themselves - ie to write long messages. But I disagree. If you're able to change and develop your impulses, that too will show up in your messages. Willingness to change is "you" too, if you do so.) But long messages may or may not be effective for what you'd like to achieve.

[Polygons]

I free-write my messages and they are typically 8,000 characters, give or take, depending on the topic. I'm of the mindset that if somebody can't be bothered to read my shit then I'm not interested continuing things into 3Dland.

Be who you are, don't allow society to truncate your personality.

[zibber]

Originally Posted by Apophenia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Maybe if it's reeeeally interesting it doesn't matter, but why would there be question if it were working? Maybe learn how to use short messages in addition to your long ones, and see which one serves your purpose best. Zib's right, it's not wrong. (I think some might believe that one's natural impulse is their truest representation of themselves - ie to write long messages. But I disagree. If you're able to change and develop your impulses, that too will show up in your messages. Willingness to change is "you" too, if you do so.) But long messages may or may not be effective for what you'd like to achieve.

What can you initially "want to achieve" beyond "you're interesting - let's correspond"?

[IotaNull]

From what little experience I have (which means you should take it with a very large pinch of salt), reciprocation is key. If you get a long message, it's probably OK to send a long one back.

If you're going to send a short message, make sure it still contains something substantial to reply to if you want the conversation to continue. I sent a fair few messages where I later realised that there wasn't any way of replying to them congruously. After that, if you get a long message back, all bets are off. If not, it's probably best to keep things succinct.

That said, the best interactions I had during my run consisted of long messages, so there's probably some merit to using it as a deliberate filter. Just consider that a message needs to be sufficiently short that a similarly long reply can reasonably be typed up in one sitting.

EDIT: Your target audience is also obviously a factor.

[Silverity]

On my profile I've had to specify "please write more than 4 sentences-- I like content" because I keep getting single-sentence worse, single WORD messages that drive me crazy. If a guy tells me that writing 4 sentences is difficult, I figure we won't get along.

The minimum I'd want to receive is a paragraph, I need something to reply to! I like 2-3 paragraphs, but usually end up writing very lengthy posts back and forth with the people I click with.

That's just me though.

[IotaNull]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	(edit: This seems pretty obvious, but that also means: don't contact people if you really have to think hard to come up with stuff to write, and/or be in any way disingenuous in the hopes of appealing to them. But I really, really hope that's obvious.)

I mostly agree with this, but I'd personally add a caveat: some people keep their profiles short because others have advised them to, not because it represents their personality. In those cases, it can be worth it to simply find a common interest (obviously don't bother if *that* is difficult) and try to expound on that in some way.

[qstoffe]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	(edit: This seems pretty obvious, but that also means: don't contact people if you really have to think hard to come up with stuff to write, and/or be in any way disingenuous in the hopes of appealing to them. But I really, really hope that's obvious.)

If that's the case I should probably never contact anyone on a dating site. I always get a creative writers block when I want to impress someone. The only times I've had "successful" conversations on dating sites is when I've tried my hardest at being playful. My "true" self have never got any responses.

[JC22]

1) keep it short.
2) don't think too hard.
3) don't waste your time with the incompatibles.
4) tease the girls with stupid profiles.

[Apophenia]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What can you initially "want to achieve" beyond "you're interesting - let's correspond"?

Some people love to have interesting pen pals, but some people who prefer pen pals might for example have an extreme social anxiety and never be willing to meet. If one knows that they seek to go on dates for the purpose of a longer in-person relationship, writing long interesting messages may say "this message is long and interesting because I want a long and interesting message back!" However, a different shorter message might say "hey, this message is short and inviting, tell me a bit more about yourself and we can see if we should meet and continue the discussion in a more dynamic context than writing online!"

The first (long message) asks for a mutual pen pal, the second (short message) asks for a meeting in person.

Exception: two extremely verbose pen pals write to each other, meet each other after many months of long conversations. But I guess from what I've seen, willing "pen pal" communication ends up with two people getting together who are: so alike that there is no dynamic when they meet in person, or one or more of the pen pals are so caught up in fear of failure that they freak out (or experience grief) when real life doesn't match up with exchanges on the internet. Why bother living and grieving death of "internet relationship" when what one seeks is live, face to face relationship? Two lives interacting is far more dynamic than two people exchanging words - the more time relating online, the more it seems like relating online is the standard. So, if one does not wish for online relationship to be their standard mode of relationship, they should seek to send messages which lead to the most frequent in-person engagement.

But I don't know what the OP wants, is ready for, or needs, so they'll have to decide!

---------- Post added 01-02-2012 at 12:16 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Silverity To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

On my profile I've had to specify "please write more than 4 sentences-- I like content" because I keep getting single-sentence worse, single WORD messages that drive me crazy. If a guy tells me that writing 4 sentences is difficult, I figure we won't get along. The minimum I'd want to receive is a paragraph, I need something to reply to! I like 2-3 paragraphs, but usually end up writing very lengthy posts back and forth with the people I click with. That's just me though.

I can handle one sentence messages if someone has a sufficient profile. So long as future messages match mine in length.

Paragraphs can be pretty long.... But I agree, content matters more than length, regardless. But I still think for the majority of individuals, shorter is a better when it comes to first couple of messages. But I do see what you mean, if a rare someone has a long message, with a lot of compelling content... that feels like the jackpot.

[Latro]

Hoo boy, lot of perspectives here!

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	(edit: This seems pretty obvious, but that also means: don't contact people if you really have to think hard to come up with stuff to write, and/or be in any way disingenuous in the hopes of appealing to them. But I really, really hope that's obvious.)

Yes, it is obvious. This is why I've sent fairly few messages* because I have a lot of trouble finding things in common with most people from profiles. Hell, the #1 woman up there, that contacted me? I saw her profile a little bit before she messaged me, and didn't find anything to talk about based on it alone either. There were some things in common, but they were stated too vaguely to latch onto and formulate a question with. For example "I think a lot about the capacities and weaknesses of the human mind". Which ones exactly? The human mind is a big thing. But there was no elaboration; she moved onto something else immediately.

*Specifically, I've been contacted by 5 people (ignoring bots and so forth) and contacted 3. Of those 8 I have "conversed" (read: sent >2 messages in each direction) with 2, and have met 1, whom I've met several times. This is over about 6 weeks. Both of the latter two were within the first two days of opening my account, so you can understand why the subsequent weeks would be frustrating.

	Yeah, that's pretty unfortunate. There's not a big line between frustration and desperation. You don't want anything to do with any of that shit.

A valid point. Not really anything I can do about it, though, it's just a feeling. About all I can do to reverse that is keep trying and eventually succeed (which will get harder as I get more frustrating) or distract myself with other stuff, and I'm on break at the moment, so the latter doesn't work so well.

	Originally Posted by KeithP To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A part of it is the introvert being let loose in text and giving explanations which they couldn't really care for just yet. Afterall, they've never met you!

After I sent the #1 message up there yesterday, I added this to my profile:
You should message me if long (200+ word) messages right off the bat sound like fun. You should message me asking for an IM conversation, or just straight up IM me, otherwise.

I'm not sure if that's too "don't talk to me if you don't like long messages" (one of my biggest pet peeves in girls' profiles is freaking *lists* of "don't x"), but the tone doesn't seem that way (in particular there are no negations in the sentences). I think it might turn out to be helpful; I think I'd do better in the IM setting, where I'd have continuous feedback, interruptions, intermediate questions, etc.

Originally Posted by Iota Null To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

From what little experience I have (which means you should take it with a very large pinch of salt), reciprocation is key. If you get a long message, it's probably OK to send a long one back. If you're going to send a short message, make sure it still contains something substantial to reply to if you want the conversation to continue. I sent a fair few messages where I later realised that there wasn't any way of replying to them congruously. After that, if you get a long message back, all bets are off. If not, it's probably best to keep things succinct. That said, the best interactions I had during my run consisted of long messages, so there's probably some merit to using it as a deliberate filter. Just consider that a message needs to be sufficiently short that a similarly long reply can reasonably be typed up in one sitting. EDIT: Your target audience is also obviously a factor.

This is a good point, though it is something I considered already. The problem with trying to adhere to this rigidly is when one person asks an open-ended question. For example, in #1 up there, she asked me about my "I think about ... a lot" box. This has two short paragraphs about unrelated topics in it, and she didn't say which one I should talk about. I picked one, instead of talking about both.

The amount of text it takes to ask a question is roughly one sentence. The absolute bare minimum amount of text it would've taken to answer the question I just mentioned would've been one paragraph, and my actual response was three paragraphs. The third may have been excessive, but the second was necessary, because the first paragraph was "I'm really bad at..." while the second was "On the other hand I'm really good at..." So one sentence can easily multiply into >=2 paragraphs. Add another question and suddenly a paragraph is being responded to with an essay, or else questions are being ignored.

Short texts leading to the other person saying long texts without any feedback is a pretty basic problem with email, which is partially reduced by IM, reduced further by voice chat, and minimized by in person communication.

Originally Posted by Apophenia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some people love to have interesting pen pals, but some people who prefer pen pals might for example have an extreme social anxiety and never be willing to meet. If one knows that they seek to go on dates for the purpose of a longer in-person relationship, writing long interesting messages may say "this message is long and interesting because I want a long and interesting message back!" However, a different shorter message might say "hey, this message is short and inviting, tell me a bit more about yourself and we can see if we should meet and continue the discussion in a more dynamic context than writing online!"

This is a *very* interesting point, and one I didn't consider yet.

[sms444]

One relationship I had as a result of online dating started with a female INTJ messaging me with a single short sentence that was witty, referenced my profile, and instantly established that we were like minded individuals. Nothing longer could have been as effective!

Generally, I agree with the posters who say that shorter and more intriguing messages are best AT FIRST. Most people like to build rapport slowly and steadily, and it can definitely be good to do a lot of that in person rather than just online, as has been pointed out.

Related: have you ever flirted with someone only by text messages? A few words at a time can be extremely powerful, even for intellectuals.

	Originally Posted by Latro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The problem with trying to adhere to this rigidly is when one person asks an open-ended question. For example, in #1 up there, she asked me about my "I think about ... a lot" box. This has two short paragraphs about unrelated topics in it, and she didn't say which one I should talk about. I picked one, instead of talking about both.

I would've asked her to clarify which paragraph she was referring to first before I tried to address it.

[Thinker]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think you're analyzing this way too much. Just message people you feel like messaging and write until you are done writing.

Couldn't agree more....you set your own rules and be confident about them.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by qstoffe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If that's the case I should probably never contact anyone on a dating site. I always get a creative writers block when I want to impress someone. The only times I've had "successful" conversations on dating sites is when I've tried my hardest at being playful. My "true" self have never got any responses.

Just realize that shit will be twice as hard and exhausting as hell if you meet in real life.

---------- Post added 01-03-2012 at 07:59 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Apophenia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some people love to have interesting pen pals, but some people who prefer pen pals might for example have an extreme social anxiety and never be willing to meet. If one knows that they seek to go on dates for the purpose of a longer in-person relationship, writing long interesting messages may say "this message is long and interesting because I want a long and interesting message back!" However, a different shorter message might say "hey, this message is short and inviting, tell me a bit more about yourself and we can see if we should meet and continue the discussion in a more dynamic context than writing online!" The first (long message) asks for a mutual pen pal, the second (short message) asks for a meeting in person. Exception: two extremely verbose pen pals write to each other, meet each other after many months of long conversations. But I guess from what I've seen, willing "pen pal" communication ends up with two people getting together who are: so alike that there is no dynamic when they meet in person, or one or more of the pen pals are so caught up in fear of failure that they freak out (or experience grief) when real life doesn't match up with exchanges on the internet. Why bother living and grieving death of "internet relationship" when what one seeks is live, face to face relationship? Two lives interacting is far more dynamic than two people exchanging words - the more time relating online, the more it seems like relating online is the standard. So, if one does not wish for online relationship to be their standard mode of relationship, they should seek to send messages which lead to the most frequent in-person engagement. But I don't know what the OP wants, is ready for, or needs, so they'll have to decide!

Wow - excellent points. All I can say is "er, shit - yeah".

[Silverity]

Originally Posted by Apophenia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can handle one sentence messages if someone has a sufficient profile. So long as future messages match mine in length. Paragraphs can be pretty long.... But I agree, content matters more than length, regardless. But I still think for the majority of individuals, shorter is a better when it comes to first couple of messages. But I do see what you mean, if a rare someone has a long message, with a lot of compelling content... that feels like the jackpot.

Definitely true. I tossed up the four-sentence bit after getting 4-5 messages like this a night:

'Hey how goes it? How is your night?'

Okay, so my honest reply would have to be, "It goes well, my night is.." ugh, what? It's a night like any other. Boring topic to pursue.

'I enjoyed your profile and I think you beautiful
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'

All right, this would be a better message if he mentioned what exactly about my profile was enjoyable, then I could expand on that. The flattery, eh, it says on my profile I'm only looking for friends and penpals so I'm not sure why my appearance would be relevant.

'How are you doing ?'

I get really tired of answering this multiple times a day... which is why now, if that is the only line in the message, I'm not even going to bother. I've noticed that the guys who ask me how I am will ask that every night. Over... and over... and over again.

'hi sexy'

Ugh, just no. Not what I'm looking for at all. =\

Compare those to these, messages I've received where I'm now happily bantering back and forth with a few gents and ladies:

[HIDE="Warm fuzzies from an INFJ"]
'Would I be sharing to much by admitting to reading your profile a few times, wondering what I could write to capture your attention?

Knowing as little about you as I do made anything I started to write sound a lot like the hundreds of guys that I'm sure have hit on you already. So I figured I'd respect your intelligence and skip the cheesy lines... besides they're as embarrassing for me as they are you. Lol

The simple truth is your profile really caught my attention and I found myself smiling ever time I read it. You seem like a great person, and I'd love the chance to see if I'm right!
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Even though I'm lucky to have a good group of family and friends, a nice home and a career I enjoy, I've hit a point in my life where I find it bitter sweet without that special someone...

So, here I find myself on Okcupid...

We seem to have a few things in comman ...so I find myself wondering a whole bunch of things, like what kind of food you enjoy cooking , to what board games you enjoy, to how you think you'd get along with an INFJ?

They say a journey of a thousand miles starts with one step. So if you're curious to discover more about the kind of man I am... consider this my smile from across the room..

Hope you're having a wonderful day! '[/HIDE]

^--LOTS for me to reply to in that message, sounds genuine. Even though he's looking for a relationship and I'm not we're still going to be friends, to me this is awesome.

[HIDE="Message from a chick"]
'I was checking out your profile and I think it's really interesting. I'm also quite artistic and crave intellectual stimulation though I'm more of a writer. I like to draw and paint but I'm just not that good. You go to the **insert university here**, right? I went there for four years doing a history degree and really liked. Sometimes I wished I did psychology though before I'm really interested in it, including mental health like you're doing. Anyways, I hope you find me interesting and I hear back from you.' [/HIDE]

Okay, she didn't ask any questions but she's given me a lot to respond to without even visiting her profile. I'm going out for tea with her later in the week, we've been writing to each other for about 3 months :D

So.. does that sort of illustrate how I view messages? I want to reply to each and every person, in the beginning two months I actually did (exhausting) but sooner or later I get tired of replying to "how is your night going" every night, multiple times a night. I just can't connect with those people, I don't think anything is wrong with them, it's just a conversational incompatibility. The latter two messages had content and were interesting. I was given a sense of the person who was writing to me.

As someone mentioned, your target audience is really important, and what you want to get out of it is really important. As I am on OKC for penpals and friends I do look for longer, stimulating messages
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[Latro]

	Originally Posted by sms444 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Related: have you ever flirted with someone only by text messages? A few words at a time can be extremely powerful, even for intellectuals.

This seems like it'd work better in an IM setting, for various reasons, some of which I've already stated. You can't really answer questions in email like this, or it'll take you 5 messages back and forth to finish answering it. Banter works well in this style, sure, but you want to get to know each other a little too, you know?

	I would've asked her to clarify which paragraph she was referring to first before I tried to address it.

That would probably have been a good idea, but that was the least relevant part of that comment. The other paragraph would've had an even longer response, for an abstractly similar reason: both of those topics start out unpleasant. They become pleasant later, I'm not brooding in sorrow or something, but they start out unpleasant, because they both basically consist of "here's a problem, what do we do about it?" To me these are more interesting topics than "here's an awesome thing, let's talk about how awesome it is!", but then topics like these require a bit more introduction, if only to avoid sounding, well, like you're brooding in sorrow or something.

[Zethariel]

As stated above, people in the internet have a liking for short messages. That comes from the fact that those happy, extraverted people (just as in real life) prefer voice or face to face communication, which is a fast paced exchange of information (compared to what an NT type likes, at least). Long messages can leave a good impression on people, you just need to find the right ones to write to
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Of course, given the above, some of those "rigth people" will cloack under the wrong mask. A shame and loss for many, really. Best advice I have -- keep on trying with the long messages -- you screen and are true to yourself at the same time, and a worthwhile person is bound to happen. Those that don't reply simply lack the time or intellectual capacity that you would require anyway, so there is no loss for you
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[qstoffe]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just realize that shit will be twice as hard and exhausting as hell if you meet in real life.

That's probably true, though I wouldn't know because I never get that far. Maybe I write too short messages? I just don't like writing exhausting messages to women before I know that my physical appearance and basic stats have been accepted.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by qstoffe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I just don't like writing exhausting messages to women before I know that my physical appearance and basic stats have been accepted.

Wow. It does sound like quite an ordeal. Maybe just quit?

[Latro]

	Originally Posted by Zethariel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Best advice I have -- keep on trying with the long messages -- you screen and are true to yourself at the same time, and a worthwhile person is bound to happen.

At least on OkCupid in my area (which is not the middle of nowhere, by the way), this doesn't actually seem to be the case. I've sat there on Quickmatch long enough that I see repeats a significant chunk of the time. Only occasionally (as in, only one in a few dozen) do I stumble upon someone I would even want to message if I could come up with something to say, and as I said I've only actually approached three people. Hell, one of those was my first message, and it was both a stupid one liner and didn't get a response, so it's really more like two. Most profiles are either flat out uninteresting, or they are interesting in some way but they don't mention anything we have in common, or they do mention something we have in common but vaguely, so that coming up with something to say about it is really difficult (see that "human mind" example I mentioned earlier; also see essentially any female profile that mentions video games). Those two up there were my first attempts at long messages, and they still don't have responses.

I suppose I am perhaps a little more frustrated than I thought, given what I just said...

[Zethariel]

Nah, it's perfectly fine to feel misunderstood and alien in the world -- that is our job as INTJ
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Maybe broaden the circle that you are looking in? Having penpals isn't half as bad, even if only long distance, and my searches with OKC brought plenty of interesting girls in Europe. It may be a bad idea if you're reaaaaally looking for a date only on this site -- then again, things like that do happen. I'm frustrated to say, two of my best friends met their wives online.

Now that I think about it, it wasn't through dating sites. It was through hobby forums O.o And chatrooms -- so in general places that you would least look for a date.