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Tolkien's Characters and MBTI None
Old 12-28-2011, 02:05 PM   #26
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  Originally Posted by Kisai
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Gandalf is one friggin' lame INTJ if his grand plan for the journery through Moira is winging it at the door with Speak Friend, stopping to read books telling him the obvious news that "Yes, everyone is dead", and letting himself get sacrificed to a Balrog. Great plan. Wonderful.

If he didn't die in Moria he wouldn't have come back as Gandalf the White.

---------- Post added 12-28-2011 at 02:06 PM ----------

  Originally Posted by Avalonlord
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That's a cool picture.

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Old 12-28-2011, 03:31 PM   #27
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INTPs get Elrond, and you will like it. :P We deserve to have one good guy, once in a while.
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Old 12-28-2011, 03:40 PM   #28
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  Originally Posted by benr3600
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INTPs get Elrond, and you will like it. :P We deserve to have one good guy, once in a while.

You already have Gregory House, and half the amateur sleuths on TV, not to mention many fictional scientists.

It would be nice for INTPs to have a few characters who are successful. There is far too much complaining about INTPs being unsuccessful, especially when Darwin, Einstein, Kant, and others, were INTPs.

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Old 12-28-2011, 03:53 PM   #29
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I thought it was fairly well agreed upon that House was an ENTP? Seems Ne-Ti to me, although admittedly the way he goes about things could be Ni-Te also. Te would probably explain his behavior towards his team, although that could be inferior Se or Fe. He is a difficult character to type, but that is for another thread.
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:07 PM   #30
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House is an ENTP and you can put a stake through his heart.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:05 PM   #31
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In the books, how did Gandalf develop his hunch that the ring was evil? In the movie he touches it and "feels" the evil inside of it, which is very S based. Where is the N in all of this? All the characters just seem to be running on blind faith, for the system of "noble and good" to me, including Gandalf.

I still can't see many, if any, of the good characters being intuitives...the whole story, in fact, has been something of a "See? S types are actually vital players in the grand scheme of things" kind of lesson for me.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:09 PM   #32
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He did all of the planning though, intuited Saruman's swift retribution, etc. The guy is essentially the evil INTJ we've seen over and over and over again...only he's masterminding for the good of humanity.

---------- Post added 12-28-2011 at 08:12 PM ----------

The movie shows that Ns are the thinkers, and Ss are the doers, IMHO.

Without us, the sensors would exhaust the earth's resources, in a matter of months.


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Old 12-28-2011, 10:25 PM   #33
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  Originally Posted by benr3600
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He did all of the planning though, intuited Saruman's swift retribution, etc. The guy is essentially the evil INTJ we've seen over and over and over again...only he's masterminding for the good of humanity.

What planning did he do? The best he's got once he finally verifies, in a very S-fashion explicitly tangible sense, that the ring is the ring of power is to "Go see what Elrond would do." After a group pow-wow, he just goes with Elrond's plan to destroy the ring. When he returns as "Gandalf The White," he mentions that he's been sent back until his task is complete. His task, but not his plan. He's guided by a higher power, trusts it, and follows it.

He does make some intuitive leaps here and there on a small scale-- predicting a few of Sauron's obvious moves based on immediate events-- but I don't see intuition as dominant in him, or any of the other good guys.

Mostly, the story seems to punish people for their intuition-- Theodin's intuitive decision to flee to the helms deep dead end, saved only by Eomer's S/J dedication to his King. Sarumon's intuitive decision to try to get on Sauron's side before he took over the world blew up in his face.

At first I thought all the good guys were just P's, 'winging it,' so to speak...but then I realized that they were really S/Js, blindly following their various codes of honor.

Also, I'm not sure how Gladriel could be anything but an INTJ. OP has her as an INFJ, but INFJs are way more quirky and spontaneous.

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Old 12-28-2011, 10:43 PM   #34
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What of the behavior of famous INFJ's, though? Are they not guided by what they perceive to be a higher power, or ideal? I liken Gandalf to a military mastermind, someone that has an ulterior task/power to fulfill, yet he continually challenges the decisions of the STJ kings/stewards throughout the entire saga. Having an obvious task that leaves one with only two choices, one that involves "abandoning reason for madness," does not an SJ follower make. INTJ's are known for being either against, or with the decisions of authority figures. I see no divergence from him and the archetypal behavior in this regard.

And another thing to associate Aragorn to being a sensor, I do not think an intuitive would be quite as adept at tracking the movements of the Uruk-hai and other keen physical observations he makes throughout the saga.
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:07 PM   #35
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  Originally Posted by Kisai
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Gandalf is one friggin' lame INTJ if his grand plan for the journery through Moira is winging it at the door with Speak Friend, stopping to read books telling him the obvious news that "Yes, everyone is dead", and letting himself get sacrificed to a Balrog. Great plan. Wonderful.

I think the fact that we can talk about the MBTI types of characters in novels who are the product of one man's mind, who also represents one specific type, is really an attestation of how well constructed MBTI is.

Nevertheless, I think it is exceptionally difficult to type Tolkien's characters, for the following reason: His creation of the mythological Middle Earth was intended to act vicarious to the mythology that England largely never had for itself. Of course England has the legends of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table et al, but in many ways Tolkien saw his homeland as severely lacking a rich mythology in the way that many other nations had.

Ergo, I see many of the characters of Middle Earth as being extremely different than, for example, characters in the novels of Tolkien's contemporaries. His characters much more resemble the characters of Homer and other ancient mythology.

Peter Jackson's films present a perhaps more relatable rendering of the people of Tolkien's imagination, so the characters may resemble specific types more (such as Gandalf - INTJ) but sometimes act in very strange ways contrary to their types due to their mythological inceptions.

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Old 12-30-2011, 07:58 AM   #36
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  Originally Posted by benr3600
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What of the behavior of famous INFJ's, though? Are they not guided by what they perceive to be a higher power, or ideal? I liken Gandalf to a military mastermind, someone that has an ulterior task/power to fulfill, yet he continually challenges the decisions of the STJ kings/stewards throughout the entire saga. Having an obvious task that leaves one with only two choices, one that involves "abandoning reason for madness," does not an SJ follower make. INTJ's are known for being either against, or with the decisions of authority figures. I see no divergence from him and the archetypal behavior in this regard.

Gandalf doesn't side with or against Saruman. Even after Saruman has tortured Gandalf, joined with Sauron, and sent his armies out to find the ring for himself, and then is defeated, Gandalf STILL tries to persuade Saruman to "join the good fight".

Gandalf disobeys Theoden's orders to stay away, when he is gripped by Wormtongue's evil. But when Theoden is returned to his senses and his own mind, still, Gandal runs away from Theoden. He doesn't seem to either be for or against Theoden. Gandalf likewise neither solidly backs Elrond, or anyone else.

He really stays on the fence, with everyone. Everyone likes him, because he is so damn charming. But he is equally annoying, and equally inscrutable, because he just won't stick to the same course of action, and won't tell you why he is doing something different, until the situation has already made it obvious.

  Originally Posted by benr3600
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And another thing to associate Aragorn to being a sensor, I do not think an intuitive would be quite as adept at tracking the movements of the Uruk-hai and other keen physical observations he makes throughout the saga.

I'm not so sure. Tracking involves reading the movements of people from signs that have been there for a while since they passed, and most of the physical evidence has been eroded away. Sensors are MUCH better at spotting all the details. STs are reliant on those signals which are clear. An SF could get a 'feeling' for what happened, but without any specific details. An NT could see a few signs here and there, and build up a mental picture of what happened, using the physical evidence to confirm or reject their hypothesis. When Aragorn tracked the Uruk-hai, he did so, by using the visual signs to form a complex story that told what happened, and then followed them, based on what direction his story predicted they would have gone. So his approach was very much that of an NT, and not so much an ST, unless it was a VERY evolved ST, who could think in terms of narratives, the way people like Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins can.

Aragorn does change his mind. But he is far too sure of himself, to be anything other than a very mature P, or a natural J. He is appreciative of his friends' loyalty. But he is not so supportive of women who feel love for him, but whose affection he does not return. In this, he is a very stern character, giving much good feeling for those who serve his needs, but rather insensitive to those who needs are not the same as his, and are not that much in his interest either. So he seems to be more Fi, than Fe.

He seems to enjoy himself in the company of others. But he pretty much sits on his own, unlike Gimli, who seems to thrive on banter. His decisions are very much his own. So he comes across like a mature Introvert.

I would say, based on this, that there is much to suggest that the King of Gondor was an INTJ.

  Originally Posted by benr3600
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We deserve to have one good guy, once in a while.

You already have the best guy in the whole trilogy: the King of Gondor, the saviour of Gondor, the one who wielded Elendil, the one who walked through the Gates of Death, and got the very dead to fight on the side of good.

Who would you rather be, the good king, whose actions make good, or the good wizard, who can only advise the king? The king is much more powerful. His goodness is equally more powerful. Be not afraid of what you are. Accept your power. If you do, then you can be Aragorn. But if you fear it, then your fear will turn you, as it did Saruman.

Good INTJ: Aragorn.
Evil INTJ: Saruman.

Take your pick.

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Old 12-31-2011, 06:48 AM   #37
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  Originally Posted by scorpiomover
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Good INTJ: Aragorn.
Evil INTJ: Saruman.

Take your pick.

I've seen INTJs fence, and they are pretty good at it.

I've also seen the same INTJs freestyle sword-fight, and God save them if we ever revert back to swords as primary weapons. Sorry, I don't know what it is...but there's a reason INTJs are typically more 'behind the scenes' forces-- too many options, too much Ti, not enough Ne, to hold out in actual SHIT-IS-FLYING-AT-YOUR-HEAD-RIGHT-THIS-SECOND battle. I think if we're gauging folks by sword-fighting ability, S/Ps would be at the top of the list in natural skill.

And don't forget that both Aragorn and Gandalf are old, and will therefore be extremely well developed in whatever their type might be.

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Old 12-31-2011, 08:13 AM   #38
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Gandalf is not an INTJ. I say he is an ESFP because he parties with every race, gets a simple delight out of blowing smoke rings, took pity on Gollum, and can't decide which route to take, (e.g. this way smells better). ESFP.

I'd also say that Tolkien probably didn't think of his characters as MBTI personality types, nor are the characters actually human in real life, so all this discussion about their personality types is rather useless.

Aragorn is an I though. I know that much.
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:55 AM   #39
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  Originally Posted by anticlimatic
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I've seen INTJs fence, and they are pretty good at it.

I've also seen the same INTJs freestyle sword-fight, and God save them if we ever revert back to swords as primary weapons. Sorry, I don't know what it is...but there's a reason INTJs are typically more 'behind the scenes' forces-- too many options, too much Ti, not enough Ne, to hold out in actual SHIT-IS-FLYING-AT-YOUR-HEAD-RIGHT-THIS-SECOND battle. I think if we're gauging folks by sword-fighting ability, S/Ps would be at the top of the list in natural skill.

And don't forget that both Aragorn and Gandalf are old, and will therefore be extremely well developed in whatever their type might be.

Sounds like a lone ranger ISxP with well-developed tertiary Se to me. I just don't see any masterminding, more like a consistent series of events in which Aragorn is forced to make the logical choice to avoid impending annihilation. During the apotheosis of Gandalf he seemed like an interim coach on a mathematically eliminated football team. He never really blew your hair back when it came to strategy, he was simply a doer who was quite adept at handling a sword. It took how long for him to accept his lordship, which everybody had been suggesting throughout the trilogy? He had to have his lover's father tell him she will die, regardless, if he fails to lead men to victory, and physically hand him the sword that he had little inclination to use when he encountered it in it's shattered state early on. I would like to think an INTJ would be open to the contingency of at least trying to resurrect the sword, and his kinship, instead of letting Boromir tell him he'll never sit on the throne. At least as a strategic opportunity. Instead, we get the lone ranger act.

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Old 12-31-2011, 10:57 AM   #40
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  Originally Posted by Eye on Earth
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I'd also say that Tolkien probably didn't think of his characters as MBTI personality types, nor are the characters actually human in real life, so all this discussion about their personality types is rather useless.

I can't even distinguish if this bit is meant ironically or not.
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:04 PM   #41
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I liken Gandalf to a military mastermind, someone that has an ulterior task/power to fulfill, yet he continually challenges the decisions of the STJ kings/stewards throughout the entire saga.

Gandalf is a Maiar. He's taking his orders from Manw, the god of the Valar. Gandalf is described by Tolkien himself as being an "angel incarnate". His entire mission in Middle-Earth is a service to a higher power. It is Saruman, his compatriot, that shows individuality and a lust for power.

A little known fact as well that Gandalf never mentioned is that he is one of the bearers of the Elf-Rings.

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Old 12-31-2011, 05:30 PM   #42
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Wait, did this come before, or after the battle with the Balrog? Not sure how that is significant, since he seemed pretty autonomous before his apotheosis?
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:05 PM   #43
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No, he was always an agent for the Valinor. The Council of Wizards were sent with the purpose of destroying Sauron.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:53 PM   #44
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  Originally Posted by Kisai
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Gandalf is a Maiar. He's taking his orders from Manw, the god of the Valar. Gandalf is described by Tolkien himself as being an "angel incarnate". His entire mission in Middle-Earth is a service to a higher power. It is Saruman, his compatriot, that shows individuality and a lust for power.

A little known fact as well that Gandalf never mentioned is that he is one of the bearers of the Elf-Rings.

^Cirdan gave it to him when he arrived in Middle Earth. Another little known fact, there's five Istari not just three. The other two, Alatar and Pallando disappeared into the East.

Gandalf's name "Olorin" in Quenya means "dreamer".

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Old 06-12-2014, 03:45 PM   #45
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  Originally Posted by scorpiomover
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Gandalf took a YEAR deciding that Bilbo's ring was Sauron's ring in the first place, but then spent very little time actually planning out a good route, and a plan that had lots of flaws in it.

To be fair to Gandalf, if the ring wasn't the One Ring, they could've used it against the army of orcs, and destroying it preemptively might be considered foolish. However, I agree that this strongly supports the idea of Gandalf being an INTP.

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Old 06-12-2014, 04:33 PM   #46
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  Originally Posted by Kisai
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Gandalf is one friggin' lame INTJ if his grand plan for the journery through Moira is winging it at the door with Speak Friend, stopping to read books telling him the obvious news that "Yes, everyone is dead", and letting himself get sacrificed to a Balrog. Great plan. Wonderful.

The time he spent researching was largely about Sauron's resurgence, growing suspicion of Saruman, and the One Ring which was dormant in Bilbo's care (so it did not match the pattern readily of all that was known about it...and to maintain any credibility one cannot cry wolf on something like that).

Calculated risk for path of the fellowship. He let Frodo cast that die forward for many reasons, but chief among them: he felt personal responsible for dragging him into this mess , Frodo stepped up to the task of his own volition thus easily earned the right, and there was no clearly superior way to proceed forward.

His "grand plan" was to enable mankind to vanquish this evil, since the future of the world was falling to their care.

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Old 06-12-2014, 05:11 PM   #47
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  Originally Posted by scorpiomover
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I quite agree. That is why I question Gandalf. An INTJ would have decided the ring needed to be destroyed, very quickly, and then spent a whole month planning how to get into Mordor, and to Mount Doom, and back, and certainly one that would not have ended up causing his death so easily.

Gandalf took a YEAR deciding that Bilbo's ring was Sauron's ring in the first place, but then spent very little time actually planning out a good route, and a plan that had lots of flaws in it.

Yep, Gandalf is an INTP all right.

Endless checks and balances in the drive towards certainty.

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Old 06-12-2014, 06:14 PM   #48
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Gandalf INTP (Wizard Odin)
Aragorn ISFJ (Warrior/King Odin)
Saruman INTJ & Sauron ENTJ (The Dark side of Odin)
Galadriel ENTJ
Haldir ISTP --ahem I'll give you this one because we don't know enough (hes kindof
a badass though so it works)
Legolas INFJ
Elrond INTJ
Arwen ENFP
Eowyn ESFJ
Eomer ESTJ
Theodon ESTJ
Gimli ESTJ
Grima Wormtongue INFP
Denethor ISTJ
Faramir ISFJ
Boromir ENTP --not people person. not functioning through structure. Impulsive. Conceptually aware but not strongly intuitive over sensing. In fact, ESTP works too based upon what we know. I'm sure there is more info about him. I would like someone to finish this analysis.

Pippan ESFP
Merry ESTP
Sam ISFJ
Frodo ISFP --he isn't pattern seeking
Bilbo ESFJ
Gollum/Smeagol ISFP

The Hobbit /There and Back Again

Smaug --ENTJ
Thorin Oakshield --ISTJ
Balin --INTP

I never finished reading Similarion
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---------- Post added 06-12-2014 at 03:18 PM ----------

  Originally Posted by anticlimatic
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Seems to be a classic case of the ol' blind-ego-admiration syndrome: Admire yourself, find yourself admiring someone else, find yourself in the person you're admiring.

Of course, I've never read the books, only seen the movies...but I can't think of a single INTJ character there...and maybe that's my error right there, and the error is mine. But still....Aragorn? Really? I could see Gandalf as a weak "maybe," but not a chance for Aragorn. I think you're cherry picking attributes.

Based solely on the movies, about the only character I can think of that seems INTJ to me is Galadriel.

(Sauron and Sarumon being INTJs is a given, since they're the primary villains
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INTJ for Galy does make some sense

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Old 06-12-2014, 06:32 PM   #49
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  Originally Posted by floramacivor
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I read somewhere that Tolkein based Gandalf on C.S. Lewis, so INTJ seems like it should be right. Or maybe it confirms that Tolkein saw Lewis as INTJ?

I thought Treebeard was Lewis, not Gandalf.

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Old 06-12-2014, 09:00 PM   #50
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I dunno..most popular MBTI sites that have a listing of fictional characters have Gandalf listed as INTJ...so may not be simple projection in this case...or it could just be propagation of misinformation from an original flawed source...I'm never quite sure, but between my supposed projection and backed with some consensus from multiple sources...I'll go with INTJ for now.

-edit- I originally had links in here..but on second thought..removed them. I'm sure people here are smart enough to search the internet for themselves...and posted links could catch a forum policy gray area...

I am still trying to figure out being amoral is considered an INTJ requirement. As for INTJ planning, it seems to be relative to the objective, if it requires a detailed plan we will make one, if there is simply too much shit to account for...we wing it. We tend to not do terrible a job at winging it when "it" falls into our realm of interest since we tend to ponder "its" iterations, possibility and probability instinctively both in advance and ongoing...

In Gandalf's case, mankind carried the lion's share of the battle against Sauron and despite all setback, they sacrificed and endured and they were victorious. So his mission completed with mankind becoming caretakers of the world.
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