[Arkeph]

I've wanted to post
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since it came out. From the link:

The Air Force dumped the incinerated partial remains of at least 274 American troops in a Virginia landfill, far more than the military had acknowledged, before halting the secretive practice three years ago, records show. The landfill dumping was concealed from families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner, Air Force officials said. There are no plans, they said, to alert those families now.

The practice of dumping the remains is bizarre and insulting enough, but the apathetic reaction of the Air Force to the incidents is perhaps even more incredible.

What's your reaction?

[Sumwun]

That's what happens when you fight for a country not worth fighting for.

[zergonipal]

'Partial remains'? That sounds like severed hands and the like, not whole bodies, and it specifically mentions that this was in cases where they were too badly damaged to be identified. Also, the Air Force soldiers involved in this weren't bothered by it? Any soldier who saw another's body being mistreated would be furious. If they weren't bothered, it suggests there was nothing to be bothered about. What exactly do you want them to do? Have a little funeral for every mangled bodypart?

[Zombicide]

My incredible reaction is about the same as that of the military's, albeit I do appreciate this news, I had wondered what they did with the parts after all.

[thebrainpolice]

I don't think its a huge deal but the Air Force should have thought of something more dignified than throwing soldier's ashes in a dump. When I die people could flush my ashes down the toilet for all I care, but some people take the remains of their loved ones seriously and the Air Force should have known people would get mad.

[Autumnleaf]

We're all worm food eventually.

[Arkeph]

Originally Posted by zergonipal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'Partial remains'? That sounds like severed hands and the like, not whole bodies, and it specifically mentions that this was in cases where they were too badly damaged to be identified. Also, the Air Force soldiers involved in this weren't bothered by it? Any soldier who saw another's body being mistreated would be furious. If they weren't bothered, it suggests there was nothing to be bothered about. What exactly do you want them to do? Have a little funeral for every mangled bodypart?

That the practice of dumping the remains was concealed suggests they were bothered--by the consequences that could result if other people knew what was happening.

If you read the article, it says that they've changed procedure and now bury the ashes at sea. I.e. it was never a binary choice between throwing them out as waste and respecting the remains.

On top of that, consider the gross mismanagement uncovered at the mortuary, where whole bodies were left for months before being identified.

We respect the living by respecting the remains of the dead. To do otherwise is profoundly cruel, in my opinion.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Arkeph To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've wanted to post To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. since it came out. From the link: The practice of dumping the remains is bizarre and insulting enough, but the apathetic reaction of the Air Force to the incidents is perhaps even more incredible. What's your reaction?

You seem to be like most individuals of most cultures on this planet at this time and in the past - romantically attached to the physical biounit your consciousness happens to be housed in at a particular lifetime.

[Sumwun]

	Originally Posted by RBM To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You seem to be like most individuals of most cultures on this planet at this time and in the past - romantically attached to the physical biounit your consciousness happens to be housed in at a particular lifetime.

1) It was concealed.
2) I don't personally care about what happens to my body, but if my family heard that my body was dumped in a landfill somewhere after dying for my country, they'd probably be pretty pissed off.

[Feral]

Wow, that sucks.
The dead are dead, they don't care, but the families of the dead most certainly would. They've had enough grief to have their loved ones shipped overseas to fight for nothing, then they just dump them in a hole? How incredibly insensitive to the sacrifice these people have made.

I don't agree with the war at all, I think it's pointless and useless, and we're just over there killing ourselves and others because it's what we're used to doing. We're every bit as barbaric as the people we seek to fight. But that doesn't mean that the individual people, their families, shouldn't be afforded dignity in their death and disposal.

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Sumwun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1) It was concealed. 2) I don't personally care about what happens to my body, but if my family heard that my body was dumped in a landfill somewhere after dying for my country, they'd probably be pretty pissed off.

Your 'goal posts' are different than the OP's. In such a case as your point, I'm in total agreement that the concealment was THE story:

	Originally Posted by OP link
	The landfill dumping was concealed from families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner, Air Force officials said

That's a subjective matter as several posters have commented already. It's rational to consider the AR suspected someone would not agree with their disposal method meeting the conditions the AF had previously agreed to, so they were trying to finesse accountability.

If this story goes no further, than I would rate them as successful.

[Micius]

... what?

Between May 2003 and February 2010 only 51 members of the U.S. Air Force died in Operation Iraqi Freedom and between October 2001 and February 2010 only 46 members of the AF had died in Operation Enduring Freedom (
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). How could 274 members of the AF have been buried in a landfill?

This cannot be referring to complete corpses, it probably is referring to severed limbs and such.

edit:

Originally Posted by zergonipal To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'Partial remains'? That sounds like severed hands and the like, not whole bodies, and it specifically mentions that this was in cases where they were too badly damaged to be identified. Also, the Air Force soldiers involved in this weren't bothered by it? Any soldier who saw another's body being mistreated would be furious. If they weren't bothered, it suggests there was nothing to be bothered about. What exactly do you want them to do? Have a little funeral for every mangled bodypart?

This.

[Vermillion]

If you're willing to be a pawn you can't complain when you're casually discarded after you are no longer useful. Viewing soldiers as heroes is just recruitment propaganda, this is reality.

[Micius]

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you're willing to be a pawn you can't complain when you're casually discarded after you are no longer useful. Viewing soldiers as heroes is just recruitment propaganda, this is reality.

A pawn to who? Military commanders make these decisions. They were soldiers, keep close ties with soldiers and many of their children will become soldiers. I don't think they casually discard their own. Again, only severed body parts are likely to have been buried in these landfills.

[ScottH]

A bunch of propagandist hoopla, if you ask me.

Even if they were discarding entire bodies, who cares? This is one of those strange topics that is impossible to be rational about, because the only foothold for interest lies in human emotions.

For e.g., if someone dumped your loved ones body, would you care?
Answer: No, unless you knew about it, in which case you "might."

Whoever floated this story was as responsible for the discomfort of those who were upset as the people who did the dumping.

For what it's worth, "respect for the dead" to me means respect for their legacy in the minds of those who persist. It has nothing to do with respect for the pile of "stuff" that we once identified as "them."

[Vermillion]

Originally Posted by ScottH To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A bunch of propagandist hoopla, if you ask me. Even if they were discarding entire bodies, who cares? This is one of those strange topics that is impossible to be rational about, because the only foothold for interest lies in human emotions. For e.g., if someone dumped your loved ones body, would you care? Answer: No, unless you knew about it, in which case you "might." Whoever floated this story was as responsible for the discomfort of those who were upset as the people who did the dumping. For what it's worth, "respect for the dead" to me means respect for their legacy in the minds of those who persist. It has nothing to do with respect for the pile of "stuff" that we once identified as "them."

Listen, pragmatically I'm sure we as smart INTJs can all agree that it doesn't mean shit what happens to a dead body. However, if I were that fucking commander I would have never allowed my FUCKING SUBORDINATES to be thrown into a fucking landfill!

Someone who so carelessly discards his subordinates that he/she has a responsibility for their well-being is shit! They made the most noble sacrifice for right or wrong and he threw their remains into a goddamn dump! Someone who makes such a decision doesn't have the right to be a leader!

[Sumwun]

	Originally Posted by Vermillion To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you're willing to be a pawn you can't complain when you're casually discarded after you are no longer useful. Viewing soldiers as heroes is just recruitment propaganda, this is reality.

Basically this is what happened here.

[Arkeph]

	Originally Posted by ScottH
	Even if they were discarding entire bodies, who cares? This is one of those strange topics that is impossible to be rational about, because the only foothold for interest lies in human emotions.

Actually, the only interest anybody has in anything is inherently irrational. Even truth and rationality are pursued only for the feelings which arise from believing oneself to be more truthful and rational.

	For e.g., if someone dumped your loved ones body, would you care? Answer: No, unless you knew about it, in which case you "might." Whoever floated this story was as responsible for the discomfort of those who were upset as the people who did the dumping.

It's morally primitive to assign blame to messengers for the discomfort which results from their relating discomforting facts. The denial of the bliss of ignorance in favor of the progress which results from righting/ameliorating wrongs is a big deal.

	For what it's worth, "respect for the dead" to me means respect for their legacy in the minds of those who persist. It has nothing to do with respect for the pile of "stuff" that we once identified as "them."

Exactly. From the Gettysburg address:

We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced.

(emphasis mine)

[RBM]

	Originally Posted by Arkeph
	Actually, the only interest anybody has in anything is inherently irrational. Even truth and rationality are pursued only for the feelings which arise from believing oneself to be more truthful and rational.

I'd call that a downright cynical view.

Good Luck with getting over it.