[Autumnleaf]

is the concept of touching more and more intimately as you get to know someone. Its PUA, but its also a natural progression that happens while dating. Is it wrong to use this strategically to get laid?

[Zsych]

Seriously, do we need more PUA threads these days? You mean is it wrong to do consciously what other people would do without having to think about it?

Is it wrong to be intelligent? Many would think so.

[Autumnleaf]

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Seriously, do we need more PUA threads these days? You mean is it wrong to do consciously what other people would do without having to think about it? Is it wrong to be intelligent? Many would think so.

We could start a thread asking if masturbation is wrong for the people who have a problem with PUA.

[fmr3]

i agree with Zysch. i feel like there are worse ways in which people take advantage of other's psychological processes. so for that, no. however, there is a difference between knowing and being aware. i suppose it would then depend upon how you use that information.

[phoboser]

Older guys have done this to me and I see no problem with it. I like it (it arouses me). If I sleep with them because of that arousal it's my own damn fault.

[nowt]

If the women isn't comfortable, is it rationalized as non-verbal negging?

[phoboser]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is it wrong to use this strategically to get laid?

No. Anybody who it "works" on wants to get laid.

[nowt]

Does shoving more money into their hands count as kino?

	Originally Posted by phoboser To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. Anybody who it "works" on wants to get laid.

[IcNjThJ]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	is the concept of touching more and more intimately as you get to know someone. Its PUA, but its also a natural progression that happens while dating. Is it wrong to use this strategically to get laid?

No. Touching is necessary.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	is the concept of touching more and more intimately as you get to know someone. Its PUA, but its also a natural progression that happens while dating. Is it wrong to use this strategically to get laid?

If girls are stupid enough to respond to PUA techniques, they deserve you.

[Polymath20]

PUA stuff is just codifying what over-confident douchebags do - or what happens during natural courtship. It's just the study of seduction.

In fact, one of the first things I saw when I discovered PUA is that they teach you that failure happens a lot. Rejection happens a lot. You attempt to talk to one woman, and something falters. She realizes what you're up to, is taken, or any number of things.

The point of PUA is to learn to demonstrate "I'm confident and I want sex" and if you target someone who wants the same, ta-da!

Anyways "kino escalation" just sounds like an attempt to make sex ed more scientific. Remember the "Holding hands can lead to petting, which can lead to touching genitals and then sex!" ... there kino escalation, as taught to 5th graders.

[Moth]

I don't see it as an issue, as long as discussion of it doesn't devolve into "no, dudebro, women love having their boundaries violated," or promote a continued effort to "escalate" even if a woman's reaction is negative.

The reason that progressive contact works is that it builds comfort with close contact for both parties. It has nothing to do with acting like an overconfident douche. In fact, not practicing it in some form--say, spending an entire date with a girl studiously avoiding contact with her, then suddenly asking her to kiss you in the car--comes off as far douchier. Penalizing socially awkward men for needing to be told this makes no real sense, though their needing to be told doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, either. The idea that a person's boundaries are fully open to you even if you haven't given them time to acclimate themselves and learn to trust you with the privilege is a rather fantastical conclusion to come to.

[maru]

I think it's 'wrong'. I feel violated because it's not genuine. Then again, if you're the kind of person who has always held back from physical contact, it's good to learn what's socially acceptable.

[Wilderness]

I think this kind of stuff is wrong when it manipulates a woman into believing there is more attraction there than the desire to get laid.

Hopefully she is experienced enough to know not to sleep with a guy if she really likes him. He will eventually either prove himself or betray his intentions.

[Traverser]

As I like to say, "It only works on the weak-minded."

Duh, right?

[Tkae]

It depends on the motives behind it.

If someone's doing it consciously to just progress the relationship, and is being really sweet about it and willing to let me go at a pace I'm comf0rtable with, then I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever.

If they're doing it just to get laid, irregardless of how comfortable I am in progressing a relationship, and want it just for a one night stand (which I'm violently against when it comes to a relationship), then that's a declaration of war. I'll make his life a living hell.

So at the end of the day, I really don't have a problem with PUA in and of itself. It just depends on the motives of the person using it. And it also makes a difference which techniques they're using, and how flexible they are in using them. If someone goes entirely by a PUA strategy, then I'll know something's up and react against it...

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If girls are stupid enough to respond to PUA techniques, they deserve you.

Lets be frank about this - lots of people just don't know what is okay to do in relationships with other people. Part of why stupid people seem to have more sex.. they don't over think it.

When you start trying to figure things out or try to come determine actions in terms of what is right (a highly subjective term)... you often just end up confused.

What would you say to a guy (or girl) who won't express closeness towards another person or touch them because they don't realize that its okay or really want to treat the other person with respect, or some such other reason? The relationship doesn't progress, but not because this person who is being careful or respectful is a bad person.

These days, both men and women are confused about relationships and how they are supposed to progress. Having stuff like this explained is helpful to people who are no longer in tune with their inner animal. Seriously, women should appreciate guys taking the initiative, saves them the risk and extra effort.

[changos]

Kinosmiling.... is the concept of smiling more and more as you feel happier and happier. Does it work to get out of sadeness? smiling more and more??? nope.

[Zsych]

It might. It may make other people respond to you better and create a more positive environment around you. If you let yourself smile from your heart, you may well let yourself become happier (happiness is a mental choice after all)

[AnaK]

	Originally Posted by changos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Kinosmiling.... is the concept of smiling more and more as you feel happier and happier. Does it work to get out of sadeness? smiling more and more??? nope.

Actually, yes.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

	Smile! It Could Make You Happier Making an emotional face--or suppressing one--influences your feelings We smile because we are happy, and we frown because we are sad. But does the causal arrow point in the other direction, too? A spate of recent studies of botox recipients and others suggests that our emotions are reinforced—perhaps even driven—by their corresponding facial expressions......

---------- Post added 12-10-2011 at 05:30 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Lets be frank about this - lots of people just don't know what is okay to do in relationships with other people. Part of why stupid people seem to have more sex.. they don't over think it. When you start trying to figure things out or try to come determine actions in terms of what is right (a highly subjective term)... you often just end up confused. What would you say to a guy (or girl) who won't express closeness towards another person or touch them because they don't realize that its okay or really want to treat the other person with respect, or some such other reason? The relationship doesn't progress, but not because this person who is being careful or respectful is a bad person. These days, both men and women are confused about relationships and how they are supposed to progress. Having stuff like this explained is helpful to people who are no longer in tune with their inner animal. Seriously, women should appreciate guys taking the initiative, saves them the risk and extra effort.

I tend to agree. As long as it's not done with malice or to take advantage of someone, I don't see a problem. I mean, would it be different if the same advice came from your dad or older brother or best friend? But, I don't know that much about it.

[AnnaMolly]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	is the concept of touching more and more intimately as you get to know someone. Its PUA, but its also a natural progression that happens while dating. Is it wrong to use this strategically to get laid?

Look. This is my take on it, and I really despise PUA:


As long as you don't outright lie or manipulate, it's not "wrong".


There are girls who are looking for casual sex or who are at least up for it if someone attractive comes along, and really, they probably don't care which method you use to make it happen, as long as they're attracted to you. They're not interested in your personality anyways I'd assume, so I highly doubt they'd freak out and rage at you if you told them the next morning that you used a certain pick up technique on them. They got what they wanted, you got what you wanted, and the story is over.
--> It's not "wrong", because they want it too.


Then there are girls who have no interest in casual sex, period. You can use PUA tricks on them all evening, you simply won't ever be able to convince them, so you better let it go and not bother them further.
--> It's not "wrong", because nothing's happening anyway. It might be annoying though.


One might argue that there's a third group of girls who don't really want to have casual sex (especially because they might be in a relationship), but they have little self-control and can be "convinced" into it. I guess that's a borderline case, but since I believe in free will and that everyone's responsible for their own actions, you're not entirely to blame here, either. Still I'd suggest to stay away from girls who appear to be of this sort, especially if they're taken.

[changos]

That was sarcasm. I know the documentation about it AND bitting the pencil trick, but unless you solve the problem that makes you sad, your happiness will not last.

As for the OP, there is cause and effect, but you can't it on reverse, the personal bubble is delicate, you just can't approach somebody trying to just get closer expecting to open up, in fact the inner doors command the outter doors. Even worse if you are dealing with an introvert.... you have to gain access to the many diff levels of the personal bubble.

I can talk about me and the many guys and girls who share this reaction and feeling, you just can't come and touch us or even hug any of us unless you earn it, if you do it you gain rejection and a quarintine punishment. Just getting closer doesn't make you a friend, partner or a lover. As usual with this forum it depends on how you put it, but treat the same topic with a diff tittle (ex: personal bubble, personal space) and youll see, unless you gain trust and vip access to the diff levels, your contact will be seen as invasion.

[Haumea]

These caricatures of PUAs are most amusing, but hardly reflective of reality.

If you're a robot running "InstallKino.exe", you are likely going to be quite awkward in execution and unlikely to achieve your goal.

You can only be good at something if you practice it until it's second nature - until it's no longer self-consciously sequential. So in essence the big whoop isn't about some mustache-twirling villain of a PUA conspiring to run KINO - it's about guys actually improving themselves in this aspect of life.

I mean at one time I couldn't shoot a basketball and consciously practiced each step - (1) square up to the basket (2) eye on the rim (3) high release (4) follow-through. At some point it became natural - I do not consciously step through each part of the shot anymore.

[Zsych]

	Originally Posted by AnaK To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I tend to agree. As long as it's not done with malice or to take advantage of someone, I don't see a problem. I mean, would it be different if the same advice came from your dad or older brother or best friend? But, I don't know that much about it.

Like I've said elsewhere - people shouldn't start with the assumption that other people have ill intent. As for parents giving advice... not that many can give good advice either. I think part of the point is that structure of society uptil the recent past, made a lot of these courting rituals meaningless or at least much simpler, and people didn't really develop skills in these areas because they just weren't necessary to anywhere near the same degree.

In the modern world, people are trying to make sense of things, and do them individually, and that leads to a whole lot more confusion and a whole lot more failure.

	Originally Posted by phoboser To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. Anybody who it "works" on wants to get laid.

Also an important point.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by Autumnleaf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	is the concept of touching more and more intimately as you get to know someone. Its PUA, but its also a natural progression that happens while dating. Is it wrong to use this strategically to get laid?

PUA is reading something in a book and consciously applying it.

Just being and doing is just being and doing.

Big ass difference.