[Polymath20]

This is problem that bugs me and I'm not sure why.

On one hand, when an 8-year-old weighs 200 pounds, either the parents are horribly irresponsible or the child has a medical condition (there are some hormonal disorders that make you feel hungry all the time) and if this is unaddressed then again the parents are unwilling or unable to care for the child properly.

But, is the state better qualified to address this issue? Is foster care or state custody going to be better for the child? Are there not better options - such as compulsory education on diet and weight-loss bench-marks? I know child services in the UK will work with parents on issues and give them time to correct problems.

I guess I have a hard time understanding this because I feel like I would be a great parent and very responsible for the health of my child - but I can imagine that there are very apathetic or outright destructive individuals out there who also happen to be parents.

[zibber]

Walk around a supermarket sometimes. Examine school lunches. Look at the list of ingredients on a cereal box. A box of Oreos!

It's not always the parents. It not always a medical condition. More than anything, we as a people have completely lost touch with our bodies.

[Seriously]

I saw this article as well and wondered about it. I mean I agree that something needs to be done to help this child but is taking them away from their parents and putting them into foster care the answer? It's tramautic for an 8 year old to be taken from their parents.

Ultimately I think education and making healthy food more affordable are the better answers to the child obesity problem. In a perfect world.

[Polymath20]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Walk around a supermarket sometimes. Examine school lunches. Look at the list of ingredients on a cereal box. A box of Oreos! It's not always the parents. It not always a medical condition. More than anything, we as a people have completely lost touch with our bodies.

This is also a good point. There are endless commercials flashing the real life equivalent of Calvin's "Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs" and frightfully many children (and parents) think that is the normal food. Many regular grocery stores carry very little in the way of "healthy food" except the fresh produce. Even more conscientious stores are still chock full of salty, greasy, sugary packaged foods. I know American culture has a lot to do with it and I'm quite sad when I drive through a small town and there's nothing but fatty fast food available.

It's almost like a new form of Darwinism. Only people with the genes that don't absorb any fat will succeed so none of us will have any famine resistance in 100 years...

[Muse]

I think education would be a nice option. I have noticed that many young people with obesity problems seem to be in denial about why they weigh what they weigh, and why their 'efforts', attempted or planned, didn't work. As if obesity is a mystical, science defying force.

One of them(a close friend), who lost 120lbs after moving out of her parents place, admitted that the issue was her food choices and food intake. 4 years prior she told everyone she ate healthy at home and didn't eat too much, but could not lose weight (in fact she was gaining) and could not figure it out or solve it(and then ask/talk/complain to us about it). She would sometimes say the problem is that she is big boned and this is just 'how her body works'. She now admits that was a blatant lie to herself and others, is happy with her improved health, and wants to be a dietitian to help others with their health choices.

Obviously not all food choices are good.

[plotthickens]

The only thing a State could do would be to fight the food lobby. That won't happen. The only thing that will work is for individuals to make food choices for Sustainable, Organic, Local, Ethical (SOLE) foods and stay away from preprocessed food-like substances. Other than that, a worldwide food shortage might help people make better choices -- if the price of corn goes up, so does every other processed food.

Either way, it'll fix itself in one generation, maybe two at the most.

[Polymath20]

	and why their 'efforts', attempted or planned, didn't work. As if obesity is a mystical, science defying force.

There can certainly be cognitive bias on both the parents and child's part. I remember seeing a news clip or a show or something where a mom was like "I make plenty of good food for him [son] and I want someone to come show me what I'm doing wrong."

Plenty. Good. Food. A small child has no knowledge one way or another and if you make it and feed it to him and he likes it, it's not his fault. But the parent was in denial.

	- if the price of corn goes up, so does every other processed food. I figure that'll be one generation, maybe two at the most.

Modern engineering and science have made food production extraordinarily cheap and it actually has to be subsidized so that farmers can still make any money doing it. Fuel costs before anything else will drive up food costs. A bag of potato chips is now like $4 which is ridiculous. That could also be taxes too. Either way, it's too expensive so I only buy chips for parties.

There seems to be a growing understanding of the local/smart foods kind of stuff. I think people suddenly realized chemical food substances are not good for you and at least some people will shell out the extra bucks for REAL food. I know I will.

[zibber]

Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This is also a good point. There are endless commercials flashing the real life equivalent of Calvin's "Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs" and frightfully many children (and parents) think that is the normal food. Many regular grocery stores carry very little in the way of "healthy food" except the fresh produce. Even more conscientious stores are still chock full of salty, greasy, sugary packaged foods. I know American culture has a lot to do with it and I'm quite sad when I drive through a small town and there's nothing but fatty fast food available.

It's just globalized capitalism. Produce food as cheaply as possible and foster & maximally exploit the most basic taste cravings. It's not American culture. This is happening most everywhere.

	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's almost like a new form of Darwinism. Only people with the genes that don't absorb any fat will succeed so none of us will have any famine resistance in 100 years...

I think it takes a little longer than that
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[Trevor Black]

I live in Europe, I've got a friend in US, 17 years old, lives with his father. My regular meal for lunch: first dish home-made soup / pasta / veggies, second dish meat / fish with tatoes. His regular meal for lunch: pizza roll. He's fat and he knows it, and he isn't particularly happy about it.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Originally Posted by Polymath20 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. if the price of corn goes up, so does every other processed food. Fuel costs before anything else will drive up food costs.

The price of corn went up when Corn-Based Ethanol came into play. Corn prices went up so high that people starved in Mexico and there were riots. When Fuel prices went up, wheat everywhere became super expensive; see the riots in the middle east which toppled governments. Every single one of those revolutions were in places where the price of their basic food (wheat:bread) had gotten too expensive for the average person.

We cannot predict what will drive up prices. The new emergence of the Irish Potato Famine Virus in America's Breadbasket may play a part; it may not. The cracks in the world food system are beginning to show, and soon enough the happy, fecund facade will crack off.

[HIDE="Some interesting graphs"]

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[/HIDE]

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. FOOD PRICES....This has been all over the news lately, but here's a particularly striking chart showing the stunning increase in food prices over the past year. It looks an awful lot like NASDAQ charts from 1999 and housing charts from 2006. Zoellick says prices for basic staples will remain high for an extended period of time. "I think you have a perfect storm of things coming together," he tells NPR's Steve Inskeep in an interview. "You have high energy prices. You have the increase in demand from some of the developing countries....As the Indian commerce minister said to me, going from one meal a day to two meals a day for 300 million people increases demand a lot. You have some of those countries moving to a different diet. So more meats require more grains. You have the biofuels expansion, which is a big source of demand." Of course, the other thing this chart looks like is oil prices circa right now. Peak oil is driving up oil prices, and that in turn is driving the ethanol boom, which is reducing the supply of foodstocks available for people to actually eat. I think we can expect this to continue getting worse.

We need to stop subsidizing food production with oil, go back to smaller, local, human-fueled farms with much better techniques, re-introduce Victory Gardens, and get away from CAFOs and monocultures. That's the only way food won't have to be processed into uselessness to get it to keep on store shelves.

Funny, I've been saying this for 16 years. Jeavons has been saying something like this for 40 (only he's advocating for Vegan diet). And only now are people coming to the conclusion that not being at the mercy of those who want to hook you on Oreos and Lunchables might be a good idea. Too bad, it takes 3 - 5 years to build up enough fertility in a chunk of land for it to support common food crops. The people who catch on the quickest will not be those who need it the most.

There are too many fucking people on this planet. We are all going to be competing for basic supplies very soon. Energy prices are going up. Food is following it. Those who do not secure their ability to obtain these things on their own will not be in an advantageous position.

[Seriously]

	Originally Posted by Mike Retriever To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I live in Europe, I've got a friend in US, 17 years old, lives with his father. My regular meal for lunch: first dish home-made soup / pasta / veggies, second dish meat / fish with tatoes. His regular meal for lunch: pizza roll. He's fat and he knows it, and he isn't particularly happy about it.

I live in the US, I've got friends in the UK. My regular meal for lunch, lean meat and cheese with fresh veg, second dish homemade soup and salad with no dressing. They eat chips with chips with chips with brown sauce. They are fat and they know it and aren't overly happy about it either.

The point? People everywhere can eat unhealthy and be fat. I know, Wow.

[Muse]

Healthy food choices can be purchased on the cheap, and personally I find it to be a great way to save money too. Healthy food is not usually in high demand or in flashy boxes and commercials because, as taste goes, it isn't like the other foods which are basically the meal equivalent of dessert.

However, I find that the issue is usually calorie intake being too high. Overeating is the biggest culprit. The body is quite resourceful, a lot of peoples unhealthy food choices would not contribute to weight if calories weren't high(but could contribute to other things)

When it comes to the human body, the specifics of choices are usually not as important as making more healthy choices than unhealthy ones.

Forceful state intervention is pretty extreme. Best to start out with information, something simple like pamphlets.

[zibber]

And from the "healthy parts" of those examples, potatoes, cheese and pasta aren't particularly nutritious.

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Healthy food choices can be purchased on the cheap, and personally I find it to be a great way to save money too. Healthy food is not usually in high demand or in flashy boxes and commercials because, as taste goes, it isn't like the other foods which are basically the meal equivalent of dessert.

Good meat, fish, fruits, nuts and veggies are generally on the more expensive end.

[Mogura]

Outlaw the use of high-fructose corn syrup in food products. There, you've just won half the battle against obesity. (Though, you've made a new enemy of corporations that all have their finger in the pie...)

Going back to the OP, yeah 8 years old at 200 pounds should qualify as parental neglect/abuse, thereby warranting state intervention...

[Muse]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Good meat, fish, fruits, nuts and veggies are generally on the more expensive end.

as meat goes, not in the USA. You can get plain frozen chicken breast(from Tyson) for a very economic price, and it's a good source of lean protein and calories. The down side? Not much flavor, and probably doesn't appeal to naturalists/animal rights individuals from a production point of view.

In Europe meat tends to be more expensive (usually double the price in US), but that's because our economy has a lot of resources tied up in meat production (leading to returns to scale). I'm sure other choices can be found in the EU economy, but generally most people will not enjoy the flavor.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	as meat goes, not in the USA. You can get plain frozen chicken breast(from Tyson) for a very economic price, and it's a good source of lean protein and calories. The down side? Not much flavor, and probably doesn't appeal to naturalists/animal rights individuals from a production point of view.

Well, the problem is that the production has a huge influence on the product. To be more literal, sickly chickens fed shit do not result in quality meat. The way an animal lives and what it eats directly translate to its nutritional qualities. Meat is cheap; good meat is a little more pricey. Interestingly, this has nothing to do with naturalism or ethics. It's in one's best personal interest to avoid factory farmed meat!

[Polymath20]

	In Europe meat tends to be more expensive (usually double the price in US), but that's because our economy has a lot of resources tied up in meat production (leading to returns to scale). I'm sure other choices can be found in the EU economy, but generally most people will not enjoy the flavor.

in America we've got so much empty land... if it weren't for predators you could just let flocks of chickens run wild and poultry would be as cheap as potatoes. Unfortunately we have coyotes, wolves, bears, foxes, stray cats and dogs, falcons, eagles, hawks, even large snakes and crocs in places. It is no place for a wild chicken.

	I think it takes a little longer than that

Not if 50% of America is going to be diabetic by 2030... <.<

[Seriously]

	Going back to the OP, yeah 8 years old at 200 pounds should qualify as parental neglect/abuse, thereby warranting state intervention...

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You might want to read the article. It discusses another child that was taken from their home for the same reason. Come to find out the kid has a genetic predisposition for obesity. Something some of ya'll refuse to believe ever happens.

Part of the problem is "well meaning" people who have no idea of the other problems they create by yanking kids from their homes.

[Arcanist]

Other people's children...

Yer business, why?

[Seriously]

	Originally Posted by Arcanist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Other people's children... Yer business, why?

Because it's always fun to tell other people how they should live their lives.
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[Muse]

@zibber, it might help if you identify some 'bad' meat, and some 'good' meat, of a similar product (animal and cut) in the same Econ/availability location and we can take a look at price difference and quality difference. To get an idea of what it is you are paying for and concerned about.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	as meat goes, not in the USA. You can get plain frozen chicken breast(from Tyson) for a very economic price, and it's a good source of lean protein and calories. The down side? Not much flavor, and probably doesn't appeal to naturalists/animal rights individuals from a production point of view.

• CAFO (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation) meat is dependant upon:
  1. oil-fueled shipping
  2. corn feed
  3. large scale
  4. drugs
• Nutrition in CAFO products is not as good as pastured products.
  • Unless prepared very carefully, chicken breasts have more fat than beef. Not so lean after all.

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[zibber]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	@zibber, it might help if you identify some 'bad' meat, and some 'good' meat, of a similar product (animal and cut) in the same Econ/availability location and we can take a look at price difference and quality difference. To get an idea of what it is you are paying for and concerned about.

I'm neither in America nor in a mood to debate whether factory farmed meat is less nutritious than pastured/organic. It's just true.

[Vulture]

	Originally Posted by Muse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	as meat goes, not in the USA. You can get plain frozen chicken breast(from Tyson) for a very economic price, and it's a good source of lean protein and calories.

there's a large gulf of "healthiness" between shitty chicken and "good chicken." tyson imo has some shitty chicken.

for a long time my family subsided on cheap-as-possible foods as necessity. the variety down there is abysmal. basically the choices are: shitty frozen chicken, breaded chicken, hanburger, pork, potatoes, carrots, bread, eggs.

fish, lean meats, and quality poultry are expensive products! the same as with produce, minus potatoes and carrots.

our meals at that time were primarily tacos, hamburger helper, chicken and rice, and pork chops and rice, pastas, and soups. that was basically all we could afford, and what we saw as the cheapest healthiest choices. they were not healthy meals by any standard, but the alternative was: hamburgers with french fries, hotdogs and tater tots, sloppy joes with onion rings, chicken nuggets, eggs, beans, and grilled cheese sandwiches...

even now, it is a bit of a luxury to buy fish, and i LOVE fish, and so don't my kids. i resort to catching my own fish in the summer and freezing what i can catch for the winter, but most people in my household income range don't have that option or knowledge. we try and buy whole chickens, and bake them for use for the week, but 5 years ago even that was not an option.

at the lower end of the economy, food choices are awful, and not good for you. i gained 65lbs in this time in my life due to poor diet as well as a job that had me sedentary for 9 hours a day, so i can identify with income being a factor in health.

[freeeekyyy]

Not the state's business...

---------- Post added 11-28-2011 at 09:31 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	CAFO (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation) meat is dependant upon: oil-fueled shipping corn feed large scale drugs Nutrition in CAFO products is not as good as pastured products. Unless prepared very carefully, chicken breasts have more fat than beef. Not so lean after all.

All that and farm eggs taste better too.